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Genesis 6 questions

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metherion

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In Genesis 6, what exactly are the "sons of heaven" referred to as taking human wives?
6:2
What exactly are the Nephilim? I mean, it does says that they were the heroes of old, but who? Were they heroes of old compared to the time is was written or times it was told?
6:4
And why do people (like Noah) live for more than 120 years after God decrees that "My spirit shall now remain in man forever, since he is but flash. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years"?
6:3

Metherion
 

rmwilliamsll

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In Genesis 6, what exactly are the "sons of heaven" referred to as taking human wives?
6:2
What exactly are the Nephilim? I mean, it does says that they were the heroes of old, but who? Were they heroes of old compared to the time is was written or times it was told?
6:4
And why do people (like Noah) live for more than 120 years after God decrees that "My spirit shall now remain in man forever, since he is but flash. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years"?
6:3

Metherion

on the nephlim.
the question comes up with such regularity that i collected a few hours of online research at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/nephilim.html

it might save you some time googling.
 
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FallingWaters

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In Genesis 6, what exactly are the "sons of heaven" referred to as taking human wives?
6:2
What exactly are the Nephilim? I mean, it does says that they were the heroes of old, but who? Were they heroes of old compared to the time is was written or times it was told?
6:4
And why do people (like Noah) live for more than 120 years after God decrees that "My spirit shall now remain in man forever, since he is but flash. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years"?
6:3

Metherion
There is a fair amount of controversy concerning these verses. No one knows for sure and there are a few theories out there.

Some have thought that the sons on heaven were actual angels, and that explains the existence of giants, and the comments in the book of Jude. Yet this is not widely received.

Adam Clarke the great theologian and commentator has a bit to say about this. I will provide a link for you to his online commentary:
GodRules.net
Here is a small excerpt:
"... it is generally supposed that the immediate posterity of Cain and that of Seth are intended. The first were mere men, such as fallen nature may produce, degenerate sons of a degenerate father, governed by the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, and the pride of life. The others were sons of God, not angels, as some have dreamed, but such as were, according to our Lord’s doctrine, born again, born from above..."

Notice he doesn't buy the angel theory.

His explanation of nephilim is very interesting:
"But the word when properly understood makes a very just distinction between the sons of men and the sons of God; those were the nephilim, the fallen earth-born men, with the animal and devilish mind."

"of old" - frequently references like that are at the time of the writing, but I am no expert on the matter

"120 years" - It is generally believed that from the time God told Noah to build an ark until the time of the Flood was 120 years.
 
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FallingWaters

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rmwilliamsll

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CrimsonTideChristian

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In my NKJV bible, it mentions not Nephilim in vs. 6, but giants. The word "giants" in hebrew means fallen ones. Now knowing that, read vs 4 again. *Indicates a word replaced with its meaning.
-" There were *fallen ones* on the earth in those days, and afterwards,when the sons of god came into the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of reknown.
So we know nephilim, but old?
- After doing some research on the "old", i think that it just must not have any real significance. If you hear annything pm me.
 
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CrimsonTideChristian

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Metherion, you asked about the sons of god taking human wives. Human has a huge significance in this verse. Human, obviously an adjective. If the sons of go were human, then wives would not be describesd as human.ie- the human sons of god took human wives... well okya.-----> No , sons of god are angels, and they are giants, or fallen ones, meaning they have sinned. They are now taking human wives. This could be there sin, or there may have been previous ones. An angel mating with a woman creating nephilim, or sons of past herose ie: heroes of the old......... you think?
 
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busterdog

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Genesis 6 questions

In Genesis 6, what exactly are the "sons of heaven" referred to as taking human wives?
6:2
What exactly are the Nephilim? I mean, it does says that they were the heroes of old, but who? Were they heroes of old compared to the time is was written or times it was told?
6:4
And why do people (like Noah) live for more than 120 years after God decrees that "My spirit shall now remain in man forever, since he is but flash. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years"?
6:3

Metherion

It's all just a myth. It's not true.

One must ignore a number of witnessed to the evidence of giants as mentioned in the Genesis passages. The witness of present-day science is a small sample indeed.

The Temple at Baalbek would apparently have been engineered by people capable of dressing and moving stones weighing in the hundreds of tons. To the extend, the deeper one goes in excavating ancient sites, the more sophistication one finds in the engineering abilities of the ancients.

Even native Americans would hold up a hand and say "how". The western parodies were not completely missing the point that the Indians would show their hands in greeting. This was to count fingers, since they were terrified of giants and their association with extra digit mutations.

So, there is more going on than

Most of the attempts to tame the nephilim and make them dance to a tune of modern science are strained at best. Not crazy, but not very comfortable either.

Here is a good source to document the literal interpretation of the "fallen ones" who came to earth and impregnated women to make giants. There is a pretty good summary of the hebrew there.

http://www.khouse.org/topical_bible_study/nephilim/
 
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rmwilliamsll

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it is really curious that YECists work on the issue of the nephilim. For Gen 6:1-5 are pre-flood, Noah is a genetic bottleneck, yet the discussion ends up talking about the evidence for giants AFTER the flood as does posting #13 here.

curious situation. thinking about it carefully makes the universality of the flood LESS likely, not more.
 
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busterdog

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it is really curious that YECists work on the issue of the nephilim. For Gen 6:1-5 are pre-flood, Noah is a genetic bottleneck, yet the discussion ends up talking about the evidence for giants AFTER the flood as does posting #13 here.

curious situation. thinking about it carefully makes the universality of the flood LESS likely, not more.

A reasonable point.

I don't see anything that tells where exactly King Og or Goliath came from. Post-flood fraternizing?

Nothing but guesswork on that view.
 
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Assyrian

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Even native Americans would hold up a hand and say "how". The western parodies were not completely missing the point that the Indians would show their hands in greeting. This was to count fingers, since they were terrified of giants and their association with extra digit mutations.
By the time native Americans were close enough to count fingers, I think they would have noticed if the other person was a giant :scratch:
 
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busterdog

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By the time native Americans were close enough to count fingers, I think they would have noticed if the other person was a giant :scratch:

Maybe they knew about Gregor Mendel's short peas and tall peas.\

DK

Just another Chuck Misslerism.
 
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DeepMindQuest

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St. Clement was a Roman who characterized himself as a "lover of chastity from his earliest youth." He struggled for years with the dread of oblivion after death. In his quest for truth, he studied with the philosophers, who only argued unceasingly and left him in still greater spiritual turmoil and despair. Then he hears of our Savior's preaching to the Jews, and of His miracles, and attempts to go to Judæa. On the way he meets St. Barnabas who has come to preach in Alexandria, but the sophisticated Greeks deride the simple discourse of Barnabas, and Clement takes Barnabas to his lodgings to protect him from the crowd. Then Barnabas leaves for Judæa, and shortly thereafter Clement does, as well. When he arrives in Cæsarea he again comes upon Barnabas, who introduces him to St. Peter. Commending him for rescuing Barnabas from the unruly crowd in Alexandria, Peter invites him to join his party as it makes its way to Rome with the message of Truth, and to become his attendant. In the course of St. Peter's discourse on our Savior's teachings, he gives an account of creation of the world and of man. This is St. Clement's account of what St. Peter said next.
All things being completed which are in heaven, and in earth, and in the waters, and the human race also having multiplied, in the eighth generation, righteous men, who had lived the life of angels, being allured by the beauty of women, fell into promiscuous and illicit connections with these; and thenceforth acting in all things without discretion, and disorderly, they changed the state of human affairs and the divinely prescribed order of life, so that either by persuasion or force they compelled all men to sin against God their Creator. In the ninth generation are born the giants, so called from of old, not dragon-footed, as the fables of the Greeks relate, but men of immense bodies, whose bones, of enormous size, are still shown in some places for confirmation. But against these the righteous providence of God brought a flood upon the world, that the earth might be purified from their pollution, and every place might be turned into a sea by the destruction of the wicked. Yet there was then found one righteous man, by the name of Noah, who, being delivered in an ark with his three sons and their wives, became the colonizer of the world after the subsiding of the waters, with those animals and seeds which he had shut up with him. In the twelfth generation, when God had blessed men, and they had begun to multiply, they received a commandment that they should not taste blood, for on account of this also the deluge had been sent. In the thirteenth generation, when the second of Noah's three sons had done an injury to his father, and had been cursed by him, he brought the condition of slavery upon his posterity. . . In the fourteenth generation one of the cursed progeny first erected an altar to demons, for the purpose of magical arts, and offered there bloody sacrifices. In the fifteenth generation, for the first time, men set up an idol and worshiped it. . . .



The following, from "The Clementine Homilies," is an elaboration on the subject of creation quoted above from the "Recognitions of Clement." (The translator calls it "a more developed speculation.")
For of the spirits who inhabit the heaven, the angels who dwell in the lowest region, being grieved at the ingratitude of men to God, asked that they might come into the life of men, that, really becoming men, by more of an exchange of ideas they might convict those who had acted ungratefully towards God, and might subject every one to adequate punishment. When, therefore, their petition was granted, they metamorphosed themselves into every nature; for, being of a more godlike substance, they are able easily to assume any form. So they became precious stones, and [metals]. . . They also changed themselves into beasts and reptiles, and fishes and birds, and into whatsoever they pleased. . .
But when, having assumed these forms, they . . .changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that, living holily, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment, yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust, and being brought under its subjection they fell into cohabitation with women; and being involved with them, and sunk in defilement and altogether emptied of their first power, were unable to turn back to the first purity of their proper nature, . . .they trode the impious path downward. For they themselves, being fettered with the bonds of flesh, were constrained and strongly bound; wherefore they have no more been able to ascend into the heavens.
But from their unhallowed intercourse spurious men sprang, much greater in stature than ordinary men, whom they afterwards called giants; not those dragon-footed giants who waged war against God . . . but wild in manners, and greater than men in size, inasmuch as they were sprung of angels; yet less than angels, as they were born of women. Therefore God, knowing that they were barbarized to brutality, and that the world was not sufficient to satisfy them (for it was created according to the proportion of men and human use), that they might not through want of food turn, contrary to nature, to the eating of animals, and yet seem to be blameless, as having ventured upon this through necessity, the Almighty God rained manna upon them, suited to their various tastes; and they enjoyed all that they would. But they, on account of their bastard nature, not being pleased with purity of food, longed only after the taste of blood. Wherefore they first tasted flesh.
And the men who were with them there for the first time were eager to do the like. Thus, although we are born neither good nor bad, we become one of the other; and having formed habits, we are with difficulty drawn from them. But when irrational animals fell short, these bastard men tasted also human flesh. For it was not a long step to the consumption of flesh like their own, having first tasted it in other forms.
. . . All things, therefore, going from bad to worse, on account of these brutal demons, God wished to cast them away like an evil leaven, lest each generation from a wicked seed, being like to that before it, and equally impious, should empty the world to come of saved men. And for this purpose, having warned a certain righteous man, with his children, to save themselves in an ark, He sent a deluge of water, that all being destroyed, the purified world might be handed over to him who was saved in the ark, in order [that there might be] a second beginning of life. And thus it came to pass.
"Recognitions of Clement," Book 1, Ch. xxix–xxx,
and "The Clementine Homilies," Homily 8,
Ch. xii–xvii, Ante-Nicene Fathers
 
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SummaScriptura

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When the folks who wrote the older testament scriptures, the Jews, were the only interpreters of those scriptures the explanation of Genesis 6:1-4 was as follows, the heavenly sons of God, the Watchers (a class of angels) lusted after the daughters of mankind and conspired to break God's law, leave their assigned abode in heaven, take human wives, defile themselves by sexual relations with women and to beget children who turned out to be gigantic. That was the unified Semitic view from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism.

This can be confirmed by anyone by picking up a copy of "The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition", by Florentino Garcia Martinez, Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar, and Florentino Garcia Martinez. This is THE MOST exhaustive collection of the non-Hebrew-Bible Dead Sea Scrolls that is available.

If one begins at the beginning of those volumes and proceeds to read through these fragments from hundreds of Jewish religious documents from about the time of Christ, one will get a profound sense that the preoccupation with the Watcher/Giant saga among Jewish writers during and before the time of Christ, borders on obsession. In addition to all of the books of the Hebrew Bible, the Dead Sea Scrolls include many story fragments from the lives of Lamech, Noah, Enoch, Methuselah and the rest as well as numerous accounts of the history of the Nephilim, the gigantic offspring of the Watchers.

One is stricken with the sheer lack of controversy among these writers on this point. To date, I have yet to find even one example from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism wherein some rabbi or religious writer has a controversy with the Watcher/Nephilim thesis, though controversy abounds on other subjects.

There is evidence that this view prevailed among New Testament writers in the New Testament books as well, but that is perhaps better addressed in another post or thread.

Certainly the idea that angels could even interbreed with human women seems repugnant to our modern sensibilities and apparently it was also for the leaders of the Church from the fourth century forward. I would like to propose however, this offense to our sensibilities has more to do with Greek assumptions about the nature of angels than it does with any scriptural basis.

I have detected several areas in which the Church's ideas concerning angels are at major variance with the dominant view during the time of Christ; here are a few:

1. Angelic substantiality
Per the prevailing ideas about angels among Christians of all stripes, angels are viewed as spirits, without materiality. Western ideas about the essential differences between human carnality and angelic spirituality make the idea of angelic/human copulation seem impossible. In the Semitic writings from 2nd-Temple Judaism no such problem can be detected. There is a consensus among Semitic writers from the period that angelic spirituality as well as angelic carnality were both simultaneously real, and not mutually exclusive. The writer of the Book of Jubilees even speaks of angels having been created in a circumcised state from the beginning.

2. Angelic peccability
Per the prevailing ideas of Christians there seems to be somewhat a consensus that somewhere in very ancient times there occurred a rebellion among the members of the heavenly angelic hosts. Whatever the reasons for this rebellion, the result was certain angels aligned themselves with Lucifer, rebelled against God and thus sinning, fell. A seemingly assumed corollary to this view is the idea commonly held among Christians that those angels who did not fall, stood the test and are thenceforth immune to further testing, temptation and the possibility of sinning. No such assumptions can be detected amongst Jewish writers from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism. Not only did angels fall during the time of Jared the father of Enoch, but previous fallings had occurred and future fallings are predicted.

For me, what Jewish writers from the time of Christ believed about this point holds more persuasive weight than when it was controverted by Christendom centuries later. To the Jews were given the lively oracles of God. The oracles were in a language whose meanings would have been more immediate to them than to us. The Jews lived closer to the times of the actual composition of those writings and thus were more likely to be the inheritors of original traditions related to their exposition, interpretation and understanding.
 
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