Genesis 5:4

[Floodnut]

And the days of Adam after he begot Seth were eight hundred years; and . . . .
THIS NEXT PHRASE is the question. Is it
A. And he (Adam) began to beget sons and daughters

or

B. And he (Adam) had begotten sons and daughters

or

C. And he (Adam) begat sons and daughters.

The dilemma is whether the text here is insisting that he began to bare sons and daughters only after the birth of Seth. Or does the tense allow that sons and daughters had been born prior to Seth. Clearly at least sons had been born prior to Seth (namely Cain and Abel). But had there been daughters born previously ACCORDING to this text?
It is possible that Cain was NOT the first child born to Eve, but the first "manchild from the Lord," suggesting that daughters may have been born previous to this son.

 

[JoeWill]

And the days of Adam after he begot Seth were eight hundred years; and . . . .
THIS NEXT PHRASE is the question. Is it
A. And he (Adam) began to beget sons and daughters

or

B. And he (Adam) had begotten sons and daughters

or

C. And he (Adam) begat sons and daughters.

The dilemma is whether the text here is insisting that he began to bare sons and daughters only after the birth of Seth. Or does the tense allow that sons and daughters had been born prior to Seth. Clearly at least sons had been born prior to Seth (namely Cain and Abel). But had there been daughters born previously ACCORDING to this text?
It is possible that Cain was NOT the first child born to Eve, but the first "manchild from the Lord," suggesting that daughters may have been born previous to this son.

I've heard it said that there is increasing recognition among scholars that the Hebrew of the OT cannot really be forced into any tense. A case in point is found in the Isaiah 53 passage which prophesies future events but in the past tense.

But what would the implications of Adam having daughters first, actually be?

 

[Criada]

?
Why??

 

[ContentInHim]

Good point.

My Stone's Chumash which I use for any study of books in Torah says this:

3 when Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, be begot in his likeness and his image, and he named him Seth. 4 And the days of Adam after begetting Seth were eight hundred years and he begot sons and daughters.

There are no notes about these verses.

Sorry I can't be more help.

 

[HypnoToad]

I'm fairly certain there's nothing in the Hebrew justifying "began to", so throw A out.

The interlinears I've seen say either "and-he-fathered (begat) sons and daughters" or "and-he-is-generating sons and daughters". The former suggests there could have been childbearing the whole time, including children before Seth. I believe the text can be read as Seth was the first one born after Abel died, but not necessarily after Abel was born. The latter sounds more like, "Adam lived for x years, having sons and daughters throughout this time," which seems more ambiguous as to when in relation to Abel/Seth this child bearing was happening.

 

[JoeWill]

And the days of Adam after he begot Seth were eight hundred years; and . . . .
THIS NEXT PHRASE is the question. Is it
A. And he (Adam) began to beget sons and daughters

or

B. And he (Adam) had begotten sons and daughters

or

C. And he (Adam) begat sons and daughters.

The dilemma is whether the text here is insisting that he began to bare sons and daughters only after the birth of Seth. Or does the tense allow that sons and daughters had been born prior to Seth. Clearly at least sons had been born prior to Seth (namely Cain and Abel). But had there been daughters born previously ACCORDING to this text?
It is possible that Cain was NOT the first child born to Eve, but the first "manchild from the Lord," suggesting that daughters may have been born previous to this son.

Strong notes on my ISA Bible gives for "began to beget":

H3205 yalad yaw-lad'

a primitive root;
to bear young; causatively, to beget; medically, to act as midwife;
specifically, to show lineage:--bear, beget, birth((-day)), born, (make to) bring
forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child),
time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare
pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail(-eth, -ing woman).


A word search, showed that the verb appears in the past and future tense in the scriptures. For example:


Job 15:7 past tense

Are you the first man that was born?


Genesis 17:17 future tense

Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old?


What's your point though?

 

[Floodnut]

Point is that Adam and Eve had been bearing sons and daughters, and that the verse is not asserting consecutively that daughters began ONLY AFTER the death of Abel.

I was just wondering if someone who knows more than vocabulary, but who also knows grammar, who understands perfect and imperfect and the "vav consecutive" can relate this grammatical info. I can't find my Kittel and I don't have my glasses so I can't look at my grammatical helps very well.

 

[ContentInHim]

I can loan you my glasses!

I think I see where you are headed. Cain had to have a wife; hence girls were born throughout the period. Also, if Cain was so worried about someone killing him, there had to be grown men besides him.

Poor Eve!

 

[Floodnut]

I can loan you my glasses!

I think I see where you are headed. Cain had to have a wife; hence girls were born throughout the period. Also, if Cain was so worried about someone killing him, there had to be grown men besides him.

Poor Eve!

Poor Eve in modern perspective, but living hundreds of years, and viewing children as a blessing of the Lord, she was quite wealthy. Some sources say 33 sons and 23 daughters.

 

[ContentInHim]

Actually, that's not a whole lot of children in 800 or so years, is it! Though toddlers at 750 would be a bit of a trial!

I've never studied or seen, even, studies of how many children Adam and Eve had. Do you have any interesting references?

 

[JoeWill]

Actually, that's not a whole lot of children in 800 or so years, is it! Though toddlers at 750 would be a bit of a trial!

I've never studied or seen, even, studies of how many children Adam and Eve had. Do you have any interesting references?

But imagine giving birth 56 times.

 

[ContentInHim]

But imagine giving birth 56 times.

SORRY - not going there! OUCH!

What it actually does prove is that our human bodies are wearing down with each generation. Many here at CF are horrified at the woman in the USA who has 17 children. She's still in pretty good shape at about 40 and obviously has easy pregnancies and deliveries, but that's not really the norm anymore. Easy pregnancies and deliveries, I mean - not the bit about 17 children.

 

[Floodnut]

Strong notes on my ISA Bible gives for "began to beget":

H3205 yalad yaw-lad'

a primitive root;
to bear young; causatively, to beget; medically, to act as midwife;
specifically, to show lineage:--bear, beget, birth((-day)), born, (make to) bring
forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child),
time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare
pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail(-eth, -ing woman).


A word search, showed that the verb appears in the past and future tense in the scriptures. For example:


Job 15:7 past tense

Are you the first man that was born?


Genesis 17:17 future tense

Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old?


What's your point though?

Pretty much ALL verbs appear in both past tense (or perfect tense, completed action -also used for prophecy of the future) and imperfect tense (incomplete action, or action in progress). However there are in the Hebrew grammatical devices that show whether it is part of the progress of a narrative, or whether it speaks of some action that is a prior condition.