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Genesis 1 and 2 -- chronological order

SkyWriting

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The verses against using such things gave the impression that you thought I was abandoning scripture, e.g. Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on ... ... "You abandon the commandments of God to follow human traditions." .

The thought never entered my mind.

I simply linked to relevant verses andnowfor the 3rd or 4th time...
asked you to do the same to defend the use of:


Skywriting said -
and what I found said your view was wrong about the value of
experiences of man
human tradition
human reasoning
 
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SkyWriting

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Originally Posted by SkyWriting
Gen.2 gives a brief overview for orientation purposes with no specific ties to particular days,then expands details for day 6.
I disagree with your assumption my friend... while you're snipping.

Genesis 1 is an Outline of ALL of the events leading to the Creation of the Perfect Heaven. Most of the rest of the Bible refers to the present 6th Day, but ALL of the Bible refers to the events of God's 6 Creative Days.
However, starting in Genesis 2:4-7 we are taken back to the 3rd Day. The narrative is adding a brief details of a very important event that also took place on that same 3rd day - before expanding the accounts of the 6th day. Both accounts agree totally and in detail. I will be more than happy to reconcile the Scriptures for you.... should you need more understanding of the above matter.What is amazing is that God wrote our History more than 3,000 years ago, and the events at the end of the 6th Day are still Future. IOW, God told the complete story of the Creation in Genesis 1 and beginning at Gen 2:4, we begin to learn the details of the events of Genesis 1. God Bless

I'm not sure what you disagree with as I essentially said the same thing.
 
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Mr Dave

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Experience of man - One example of Personal experience would be in Acts 10:47 when personal experience was the deciding factor about whether Gentiles could be 'admitted' into Christianity.

Human tradition - John 10:22 - Jesus says nothing against the tradition of the Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah). Also, what I said about tradition was things such as the value of hymn lyrics, prayers etc. Scripture supports the use of prayers and hymns etc, as there are many of each of these in scripture.

Reason - I already have done this, in discussing The greatest commandment, that loving God with all our minds involves seriously thinking about things rationally and applying reason.
 
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SkyWriting

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Experience of man - One example of Personal experience would be in Acts 10:47 when personal experience was the deciding factor about whether Gentiles could be 'admitted' into Christianity.

Human tradition - John 10:22 - Jesus says nothing against the tradition of the Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah). Also, what I said about tradition was things such as the value of hymn lyrics, prayers etc. Scripture supports the use of prayers and hymns etc, as there are many of each of these in scripture.

Reason - I already have done this, in discussing The greatest commandment, that loving God with all our minds involves seriously thinking about things rationally and applying reason.

The first two offer some support.
200px-Charles_Manson_-_Lie-_The_Love_%26_Terror_Cult.jpg


The third fails as every Charles Manson thinks they have this going for them.

 
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SkyWriting

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I already told you, the 3 heavens are different spheres of our Earth. No one in the Bible had any idea of "other worlds" whatever you mean by that.

I also consider Revelation a load of rubbish, so quoting it means nothing to me.

"different spheres of our Earth" - Science's Alternative to an Intelligent Creator: the Multiverse Theory | Cosmology | DISCOVER Magazine

Revelation a load of rubbish -2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,.
 
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Jase

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shernren

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My apologies. I can work that in.

I used the phrase "human reasoning" in the search function across the entire database It's plenty good enough for me. ;)

The reason it's not good enough for me is, if you notice, a lot of your quotes are from the NLT. This is not accidental. The NLT is really the "New Loose Translation": it's wonderful for devotional reading and it can be a helpful pointer in clearing up the interpretation of difficult verses, but as a extremely dynamic and not-very-literal translation it simply isn't suited for the kind of "word study" you are trying to do.

Galatians 1:11 New Living Translation (©2007)
Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel message I preach is not based on
mere human reasoning.

For example, that's a bad call; the ESV simply has
For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. (Gal 1:11, ESV)
Checking the Blue Letter Bible will show you that there is in fact no word which can be translated "reasoning" in the original Greek of this verse.

2 Corinthians 10:4 New Living Translation (©2007)
We use God's mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of
human reasoning
and to destroy false arguments.

Again, the term "human reasoning" is not found in the original Greek, or indeed its official NLT translation!

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through ... ... misleading philosophy. Such a person follows
human traditions and the world's way of doing things rather than following Christ. ...

Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on ... ... "You abandon the commandments of God to follow
human traditions."

Those verses do actually say what you think they do (for once), but you're ignoring the other verses which speak positively of tradition.
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. (2Thess 2:15, ESV)

Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. (2Thess 3:6, ESV)
Your "in other words" falls to the bottom of that list of interpretations. Especially since "my persecutions and sufferings " are the only part of that list that we might restate as Pauls own experiences. But likely he is referring to what others have seen happen to him after he moved away from Human reasoning and turned to The Fathers reasoning instead.

They were the experiences of a human, so are they not human experience?
Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one-I am talking like a madman-with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant? (2Cor 11:22-29, ESV)
You are correct that That's because the Bible is historically correct. But as to spiritual matters, I don't see it happening. Exceptions may include the experiences of christian leaders/teachers like Paul.

Note that when Paul was quoting the Greek poets, he wasn't just making a historical point, he was making a theological point.

And as if that wasn't enough:
Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. (1Cor 11:13-15, ESV)
What? Paul telling his readers to think about things for themselves, instead of referring to Scripture? Paul telling his readers to observe the way things work, instead of quoting verse and chapter? Surely he jests! Not only that, today we judge for ourselves that it is entirely proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered, and that short-haired ladies can be entirely as glorious (or inglorious) as their long-haired counterparts. So not only is Paul willing to base his commands on observations, but on temporary observations of human culture.

I think the specific warnings about human reasoning, human traditions, and human experiences are enough to drop them to the bottom of the list of considerations.

This is a list of leaders who's experiences, reasoning and traditions are outside of my spiritual areas of interest.

Here is a list of people who are documented to fully support the idea of human reasoning, human traditions, and human experiences when interpreting scripture.

These 70 as well.

I think the case for honoring human reasoning, human traditions, and human experiences falls flat. Just my opinion.
The leaders listed above are free to protest.

Well, I don't know if they are free or not, actually.
Check your location for sex offenders.

Comparing well-meaning Christians who are trying to correct your shallow understanding of Scripture with convicted sex offenders and disgraced ministers is offensive, disgusting, and unbecoming of a Christian, if not actually legally libellous. Please take a good hard look at yourself.
 
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SkyWriting

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Originally Posted by SkyWriting
Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through ...
... misleading philosophy. Such a person follows human traditions and the world's way of doing things rather than following Christ. ...
Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on ...
... "You abandon the commandments of God to follow human traditions."
Those verses do actually say what you think they do (for once), but you're ignoring the other verses which speak positively of tradition.

Nope.
I was just staying on track and sticking to "Human reasoning" specifically.

Ok.
You think the NLT sucks.
Noted.

Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. (1Cor 11:13-15, ES

What? Paul telling his readers to think about things for themselves, instead of referring to Scripture? Paul telling his readers to observe the way things work, instead of quoting verse and chapter? Surely he jests! Not only that, today we judge for ourselves that it is entirely proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered, and that short-haired ladies can be entirely as glorious (or inglorious) as their long-haired counterparts. So not only is Paul willing to base his commands on observations, but on temporary observations of human culture.

Close. Paul is commanding his readers to question the wisdom of their very temporary human culture and decide if it's appropriate.

Originally Posted by SkyWriting
I think the specific warnings about human reasoning, human traditions, and human experiences are enough to drop them to the bottom of the list of considerations.
This is a list of leaders who's experiences, reasoning and traditions are outside of my spiritual areas of interest.
Here is a list of people who are documented to fully support the idea of human reasoning, human traditions, and human experiences when interpreting scripture.
These 70 as well.
I think your case for honoring human reasoning, human traditions, and human experiences falls flat. Just my opinion.
The leaders listed above are free to protest.
Well, I don't know if they are free or not actually.
Check your location for offenders.

...Comparing well-meaning Christians who are trying to correct your shallow understanding of Scripture with convicted sex offenders and disgraced ministers is offensive, disgusting, and unbecoming of a Christian, if not actually legally libelous. Please take a good hard look at yourself.

Originally Posted by SkyWriting
I think the case for honoring human reasoning, human traditions, and human experiences falls flat.
If I failed to illustrate the shallow connection for you, I'll do so.
But in the process of getting a good hard look at myself....
no....I'm sure each of the above listed people did that regularly.
Lets see if I can connect their actions with "Human Reasoning."

on the other hand, places a high value on human reason.

the approach to morality also relies heavily on human reasoning.

Using human reason, we can deduce the principles of this natural law

The Harmony of Faith and Reason

Other philosophers start from the principle that human reasoning is unable to give us the knowledge of things in themselves. The data of common sense, our intellectual concepts, and the conclusions reached through the process of discursive reasoning do not,
they say
primarily represent reality, but acting under diverse influences such as those of our usual and practical needs, common sense and discursive reason result in a deformation of reality;


Yes. That's what I say.

"Discursive reasoning results in a deformation of reality." - Sky


The ... Church places value on the human reasoning that was given to us by God. God invented the intellect. It plays a role in our surrender to God.

The meaning of life is the goal of all human reasoning; the tradition holds that such meaning does exist at an ultimate level (God) and that the journey toward discovery of that meaning is deeply satisfying.
 
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SkyWriting

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Revelation a load of rubbish

Sorry, the New Testament wasn't written when Timothy wrote that, let alone it being canonized. Timothy was only referring to the Old Testament, most likely the Torah.
I'm so tired of people misusing that verse to defend inerrancy. :doh:

You will forever be so tired then.
Because then the inclusion of that line into scripture would be an error
and you wouldn't be reading it
because it couldn't be there.
Because it's an error.....
 
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SkyWriting

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...thinking about things rationally and applying reason.

This is the most dangerous activity that a person can undertake.
Human Rationality and Human Reasoning that is.
 
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Mr Dave

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This is the most dangerous activity that a person can undertake.
Human Rationality and Human Reasoning that is.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Please elaborate on why the most dangerous thing someone could do is to apply reason, and think things through rationally.
 
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