Genesis 1:26

[eksesar]

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Here is my questions :
In Gen 1:26 God said. but with who ?

 

[45RTRT]

Hi !

check out this site, it may help. The first post has been lost so this is the shortened version.

www.christian-bible-truths.com

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy eksesar,
Greetings.

"Here is my questions :
In Gen 1:26 God said. but with who ?"

The angels. There have been a number of suggestions for the obvious plural.
Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV): "26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
When God speaks in v.26 there is the plural of "us", "our" and "our". But when it records God’s creation in v.27, there is in contrast a singular "his", "he’ and "he". A first step in understanding this is to recognize that in both verses, the word "God" (Heb. "Elohim") is a plural word, and according to the context this is translated as "God", "god", "gods", "angels", "judges".

David using terms from the creation speaks of the new creation centred in Jesus.
Psalm 8:4-8 (KJV): "4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas."
In the above KJV "the angels" is the same word "Elohim" as in Genesis 1:26,27, and if "angels" is accepted here then this confirms that the plural of Genesis 1:26-27 includes the angels.

This is not universally accepted because some translations do not translate "Elohim" here as "angels", refer the following:
Psalm 8:5 (1901 ASV): "For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor."
Psalm 8:5 (RSV): "Yet thou hast made him little less than God,
and dost crown him with glory and honor."
In each of the above, KJV "the angels’, ASV "God", RSV "God" is the same word as "God" in Genesis 1:26,27.

The KJV translation of Psalm 8:5 is confirmed to be acceptable and even preferred by the quotation and comments on Psalm 8:5 in the following:
Hebrews 2:7-9 (KJV): "7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
David then interprets Genesis 1:26, telling us that the plurality includes the angels, and this is also confirmed by the writer to the Hebrews. This all shows that Genesis 1:26-27 speaks concerning the creation of man by the One God and the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[2ducklow]

The angels. There have been a number of suggestions for the obvious plural.
Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV): "26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
When God speaks in v.26 there is the plural of "us", "our" and "our". But when it records God’s creation in v.27, there is in contrast a singular "his", "he’ and "he". A first step in understanding this is to recognize that in both verses, the word "God" (Heb. "Elohim") is a plural word, and according to the context this is translated as "God", "god", "gods", "angels", "judges".

Actually, elohim is a word that has either a singular or a plural sense but the word is plural in form. Just like the English word fish has either a singular or a plural sense but has the same form for each sense.
When elohim refers to the one true God, it is always singular in meaning even though the form of the word is plural that is to say it has a plural ending in Hebrew. This derives perhaps from the fact that it may have been a borrowed word from the heathen nations who had ‘gods’. Thus the Hebrews took a word that meant in a foreign language ‘gods’ and took it to mean ‘god’ because the Hebrews only had one god.

David using terms from the creation speaks of the new creation centred in Jesus.

Psalm 8:4-8 (KJV): "4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas."

I would agree with you here. Jesus is the firstborn of this new creation, this new man or new adam, and we all who are in christ jesus are new creations or new adams as well. the old adam is dieing and one day will be completely gone at which time all that will remain will be God's new creation, or new adam. The old adam is a flunky and there is no hope in him. Only in Jesus is there any hope of life.
quote=trevor]In the above KJV "the angels" is the same word "Elohim" as in Genesis 1:26,27, and if "angels" is accepted here then this confirms that the plural of Genesis 1:26-27 includes the angels.

This is not universally accepted because some translations do not translate "Elohim" here as "angels", refer the following:
Psalm 8:5 (1901 ASV): "For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor."
Psalm 8:5 (RSV): "Yet thou hast made him little less than God,
and dost crown him with glory and honor."
In each of the above, KJV "the angels’, ASV "God", RSV "God" is the same word as "God" in Genesis 1:26,27.

The KJV translation of Psalm 8:5 is confirmed to be acceptable and even preferred by the quotation and comments on Psalm 8:5 in the following:
Hebrews 2:7-9 (KJV): "7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
David then interprets Genesis 1:26, telling us that the plurality includes the angels, and this is also confirmed by the writer to the Hebrews. This all shows that Genesis 1:26-27 speaks concerning the creation of man by the One God and the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor[/quote]
The big problem with that analysis that I see is this. Nowhere does the bible state that angels have the image of God. At least I am unaware of any verse that says that. However, scripture does state that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So Jesus and God have the same image. And we also are to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that would mean that there are 3 that all have the same image. Jesus has the image of God and we are in the process of developing the image of Jesus. Jesus is stated to be an elohim (not God though) and we are elohims as well (not gods). So we all 3 have the same image and all 3 are elohim.

God was speaking by prophecy to Jesus and us in a figure of speech called an apostrophe, which God used in other places in the bible. This figure of speech is called an apostrophe which means you are speaking to someone who isn’t there or to an inanimate object such as the wind or rocks or trees etc. So Gen. 1.26 is prophetic apostrophe.
God did not make man in our image when Gen. 1.26 was penned. That process is still ongoing. God did create man in His image but that is different than being made in the image of God. There are two different Hebrew words used here for make and create. Only God can create from nothing which he did when he created adam. But we as coworkers with the Lord are making man in the image of Jesus who is the image of God.


Romans 8: 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Here we see that God foreknew that we would be conformed to the image of His Son even way back at the time of Gen. 1.26.

Col. 1: 15. who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; ASV

Thus scripture names 3 that are all of the same image. None of whom are angels.

Here are 2 examples of God speaking to someone who wasn’t there which are apostrophes in the b ible.

Isaiah 44;

• That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Not only was this prophesised hundreds of years before cyrus was even born, but God even said what his name was. Or take this verse.

Ps. 2: 7. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.

This is prophetic apostrophe as well. Jesus hadn’t been born when God said this, yet God was speaking to Jesus saying “this day have I begotten thee.”


So I don’t think angels are a part of the equation in Gen. 1.26. Saying that God and angels created man is the meaning of ‘let us make man in Our image” would be to give creative powers to angels. I believe only God can create something out of nothing. So also for that reason, I do not believe “let us make man in our image” can refer to angels. Also only god creates so because gen. 1.26 says ‘us’ and ‘our’ for that reason it cannot refer to the creation spoken of in the next verse where adam was created by god (singular).

 

[debi b]

I really don't have a problem with the idea that Adonai was speaking with angels (malakim) in verse 26. Verse 27 makes it clear that it is singular in this one:

27 So Elohim created man in His own image, in the image of Elohim created He him; male and female He created them.

All the verbs and pronominal suffixes are singular

 

[Henaynei]

I really don't have a problem with the idea that Adonai was speaking with angels (malakim) in verse 26. Verse 27 makes it clear that it is singular in this one:



All the verbs and pronominal suffixes are singular

Right-ooooo!

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy 2ducklow,

Greetings. I appreciate your reply.

"Actually, elohim is a word that has either a singular or a plural sense but the word is plural in form. Just like the English word fish has either a singular or a plural sense but has the same form for each sense.
When elohim refers to the one true God, it is always singular in meaning even though the form of the word is plural that is to say it has a plural ending in Hebrew."

I can almost agree with the above, especially "When elohim refers to the one true God, it is always singular in meaning". But I believe that the word is plural, deliberately so, as part of the Divine revelation of Himself, coupled with His past work and His future purpose and work.

Your comment would seem to fit the following:
Genesis 1:1 (KJV): "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Here is the start of God’s revelation concerning creation and Himself. Here the plural "Elohim" is coupled with a singular verb "created". Another explanation of this is the word "Elohim" could be translated "mighty ones" and this would then read to a Hebrew "Mighty Ones (He) created". I believe that this Divine language is teaching that there is One God, who works in and through others called mighty ones, whose power and strength is derived from God Himself.

This derivation "mighty ones" is based on the idea that Elohim is part of a family of words, El, Eloah, Elohim. El is sometimes translated strength or power, and this is the primary meaning of the word. When applied to God, it speaks of God as all-powerful and as the source of all power or strength.
Psalm 90:2 (KJV): "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God (Heb."El")."
Micah 2:1 (KJV): "Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power (Heb."El") of their hand."

"Eloah" is used for God Himself, and could be translated "Mighty One".
Isaiah 44:8 (KJV): "Is there a God (Heb."Eloah") beside me? yea, there is no God (Heb.tsur=rock – a metaphor for power, stability, strength); I know not any."

What then of the plural "Mighty Ones" and singular "created". Genesis 1:26-27 shows the meaning of this, because God Himself or an angel spokesman calls upon others to participate in the creation of man:
Genesis 1:26 (KJV): "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"
And yet when it records the accomplishment it says
Genesis 1:27 (KJV): "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

"So I don’t think angels are a part of the equation in Gen. 1.26. Saying that God and angels created man is the meaning of ‘let us make man in Our image" would be to give creative powers to angels. I believe only God can create something out of nothing. So also for that reason, I do not believe "let us make man in our image" can refer to angels. Also only god creates so because gen. 1.26 says ‘us’ and ‘our’ for that reason it cannot refer to the creation spoken of in the next verse where adam was created by god (singular)."

Yes, God could give creative power to the angels. This is how I understand this record and the work of the angels in general as having power over this present age Hebrews 2:5.

I can appreciate to some extent your view of "prophetic apostrophe" (This is a new phrase to me and I could not establish the meaning of this, but I guessed at your usage). I accept this future tense applied to Genesis 1:26-27, because these verses have their ultimate fulfillment in Jesus, but I also take them to teach the events of the Genesis creation. We have the same past and future with respect to creation as David shows in Psalm 8.
Psalm 8:6 (KJV): "Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"
Initially Adam was granted dominion, but he fell because of his transgression.

The writer to the Hebrews who interprets these creation words states that this past tense, that was applicable to Adam, is yet to be fulfilled in the future in Jesus:
Hebrews 2:8 (KJV): "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

I also believe that the angels were there in the Genesis creation, and were given the power of God to create. I do not believe that God Himself "creates something out of nothing", but God creates intelligent matter out of energy or his power and his wisdom, and this is why such words as El, Elohim are used. The singular of Genesis 1:27 is to show that the source of this power is God Himself, in contradistinction to the pagan belief in many gods, many independent powers.

I do not think you have answered why David, when commenting on the creation and the new creation, splits the "Elohim" of Genesis 1:26-27 into two component parts when he says:
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."
God is Elohim when he uses His Wisdom and Power to work in and through His ministers, angels, judges, and (at least in the future) the faithful. The angels are Elohim, because they derive their power from God to accomplish God’s purpose in the earth. That the angels are called "Elohim" in Psalm 8:5 is confirmed by the writer to the Hebrews. The many appearances of angels as "men" would also indicate that the angels have the same image and likeness as the future redeemed Luke 20:35.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[2ducklow]

Howdy2;

Howdy 2ducklow,

Greetings. I appreciate your reply. I can almost agree with the above, especially "When elohim refers to the one true God, it is always singular in meaning". But I believe that the word is plural, deliberately so, as part of the Divine revelation of Himself, coupled with His past work and His future purpose and work.

Your comment would seem to fit the following:
Genesis 1:1 (KJV): "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Here is the start of God’s revelation concerning creation and Himself. Here the plural "Elohim" is coupled with a singular verb "created".

You will notice that elohim is translated as God not Gods. If elohim is plural why isn't it translated as Gods?
You seem to be saying that Gods is God.

Another explanation of this is the word "Elohim" could be translated "mighty ones" and this would then read to a Hebrew "Mighty Ones (He) created". I believe that this Divine language is teaching that there is One God, who works in and through others called mighty ones, whose power and strength is derived from God Himself.

It's not just that verse it's every verse that refers to elohim the one true god uses the singular tense of the verb not the plural. Not every verse refering to elohim uses the verb to create (bara in hebrew). So one can't say elohim means God and the angels otherwise you get in deut. 6.4
"hear o Isael the Yahweh our God and angels (elohim) is one Yahweh. That would mean angels are yahweh themselves.

This derivation "mighty ones" is based on the idea that Elohim is part of a family of words, El, Eloah, Elohim. El is sometimes translated strength or power, and this is the primary meaning of the word. When applied to God, it speaks of God as all-powerful and as the source of all power or strength.

The meaning of the root word for elohim is not the meaning of elohim. the meaning of any root word is not the meaning of the word. The root meaning of our word logic is the greek word logos which means word. Logic doesn't mean word.

Psalm 90:2 (KJV): "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God (Heb."El")."
Micah 2:1 (KJV): "Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power (Heb."El") of their hand."

"Eloah" is used for God Himself, and could be translated "Mighty One".
Isaiah 44:8 (KJV): "Is there a God (Heb."Eloah") beside me? yea, there is no God (Heb.tsur=rock – a metaphor for power, stability, strength); I know not any."

What then of the plural "Mighty Ones" and singular "created". Genesis 1:26-27 shows the meaning of this, because God Himself or an angel spokesman calls upon others to participate in the creation of man:
Genesis 1:26 (KJV): "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"
And yet when it records the accomplishment it says
Genesis 1:27 (KJV): "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Yes, God could give creative power to the angels. This is how I understand this record and the work of the angels in general as having power over this present age Hebrews 2:5.

Having power over this age does not equate to the power to create something out of nothing. 2 different verbs are used in vs. 26, and 27. Bara in vs. 27 means to create. asah in vs. 26 means to make. the reason God chose two different verbs is because it is two different events. first God prophesised that they (God , Jesus and the church) would make (asah) man in their image. I have shown from scripture how we all have the same image. You didn't comment on it. Then god creates a man (adam) so that his prophesy can be fulfilled. Let me ask you this, Why did god not say 'let us create man in our image"? If God and angels is the meaning of elohim as you assert, then God should have said "let us create man in our image". But he didn't. To make something requires time and effort it's not done in an instant like creation is. No clearly these are two different events, at least clearly to me.

I can appreciate to some extent your view of "prophetic apostrophe" (This is a new phrase to me and I could not establish the meaning of this, but I guessed at your usage).

Apostrophe (Greek αποστροφη, turning away; the final e being sounded) is an exclamatory rhetorical figure of speech, when a speaker or writer breaks off and directs speech in an abstract direction, to a person not present, or to a thing. In dramatic works and poetry, it is often introduced by the word "O" (not the exclamation "oh").
It is related to personification, although in apostrophe, objects or abstractions are implied to have certain human qualities (such as understanding) by the very fact that the speaker is addressing them as he would a person in his presence.
Apostrophe is often used to convey extreme emotion, as in Claudius's impassioned speech in Hamlet.
[edit]

Examples

• "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" 1 Cor. 15:55

Common usage as an opposition speaker at a political convention: "And I say to you, Mr. President, we do not want our children to grow up in a world where...(etc.)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe_(figure_of_speech)

• I accept this future tense applied to Genesis 1:26-27, because these verses have their ultimate fulfillment in Jesus, but I also take them to teach the events of the Genesis creation. We have the same past and future with respect to creation as David shows in Psalm 8.

[/quote]

Psalm 8:6 (KJV): "Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"
Initially Adam was granted dominion, but he fell because of his transgression.

I do not think that the meaning of gen 1.26 is that god created adam and will create Jesus. But i see how you could think that if you take the hebrew word asah to mean create. But since asah means to make and not to create I would have to reject this interpetation upon these grounds.


God created adam first, God did not create Jesus when he created adam. Jesus is gods second creation. A necessity that resulted from adam failing.

The writer to the Hebrews who interprets these creation words states that this past tense, that was applicable to Adam, is yet to be fulfilled in the future in Jesus:

Hebrews 2:8 (KJV): "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

I see this verse refering soley to Jesus the second adam and not the adamic race. Not all of the adamic race has yet been put under him but when it is the adamic race will no longer exist. ONly Gods new creation will exist. we will exist only as a new creation. the old man is dieing and one day will be completely dead. Thats my understanding of this verse.

I also believe that the angels were there in the Genesis creation, and were given the power of God to create.

I've seen no scripture indicating that angles have the power to create something out of nothing.

I do not believe that God Himself "creates something out of nothing", but God creates intelligent matter out of energy or his power and his wisdom, and this is why such words as El, Elohim are used. The singular of Genesis 1:27 is to show that the source of this power is God Himself, in contradistinction to the pagan belief in many gods, many independent powers.

Well even if what you say is true i would have to say god created energy out of nothing. the singular of genesis 1.27 shows that god alone created everything with no help from anyone. God is all powerfull he doesnt need anyones help.

I do not think you have answered why David, when commenting on the creation and the new creation, splits the "Elohim" of Genesis 1:26-27 into two component parts when he says:

I have because vs. 26 does not refer to the creation, it does not use the word for creation. it is only assumed by some to refer to creation because it is followed by verse 27 which has god creating man. Not a justifiable reason to me.

Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."

The word translated angels is elohim, and should read "for thou hast made him a little lower than God......."

God is Elohim when he uses His Wisdom and Power to work in and through His ministers, angels, judges, and (at least in the future) the faithful. The angels are Elohim, because they derive their power from God to accomplish God’s purpose in the earth. That the angels are called "Elohim" in Psalm 8:5 is confirmed by the writer to the Hebrews. The many appearances of angels as "men" would also indicate that the angels have the same image and likeness as the future redeemed Luke 20:35.

Kind regards
Trevor

I agree that elohim does not always refer to God, however it does always refer to those who are doing god's will whether angels or majistrates, unless it refers to false gods such as demons.

 

[2ducklow]

hX[ `asah (aw-saw'); Verb, Strong #: 6213

1. to do, fashion, accomplish, make
   1. (Qal)
      1. to do, work, make, produce 1a
   2. to do 1a
   3. to work 1a
   4. to deal (with) 1a
   5. to act, act with effect, effect
      1. to make 1a
   6. to make 1a
   7. to produce 1a
   8. to prepare 1a
   9. to make (an offering) 1a
   10. to attend to, put in order 1a
   11. to observe, celebrate 1a
   12. to acquire (property) 1a
   13. to appoint, ordain, institute 1a
   14. to bring about 1a
   15. to use 1a
   16. to spend, pass
   17. (Niphal)
       1. to be done
       2. to be made
       3. to be produced
       4. to be offered
       5. to be observed
       6. to be used
   18. (Pual) to be made
2. (Piel) to press, squeeze

The hebrew word for ‘make’ (asah) in Genesis 1.26 is not the same Hebrew word in Gen. 1.27 translated ‘created’ (bara).

arb Bara' (baw-raw'); Verb, Strong #: 1254

1. to create, shape, form
   1. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
      1. of heaven and earth
      2. of individual man
      3. of new conditions and circumstances
      4. of transformations
   2. (Niphal) to be created
      1. of heaven and earth
      2. of birth
      3. of something new
      4. of miracles
   3. (Piel)
      1. to cut down
      2. to cut out
2. to be fat
   1. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Trevor, your interpretation of vs. 26 and 27 has both words meaning the same thing, to create. I believe God purposely chose these two different words because the meaning of vs. 26 is not "let us create man in our image" .

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy 2ducklow,

Greetings again. You have given me some things to consider, too much to respond online. I appreciate the info on Apostrophe and will consider your thoughts on make compared with create. Briefly responding to two comments only.

"You will notice that elohim is translated as God not Gods. If elohim is plural why isn't it translated as Gods?
You seem to be saying that Gods is God."

Elohim is a unique Hebrew word plural in form and used with a singular verb as you state. The teaching of the Bible is that there is one God, and therefore in Genesis 1:1, 26, 27 the translation God is acceptable. Gods in our language would be incorrect as the angels are never independent mighty ones, but "Mighty Ones (He) created" is how I think a thoughtful Hebrew would read this. Elohim in Hebrew appears to have more meaning than simply the word God in English.

Without wanting to widen the subject, have you considered:
a. Genesis 3:5 KJV "gods", most modern translations "God". Also the comment in Genesis 3:22 that seems to be linked with Genesis 3:5. Who are the "us" in Genesis 3:22?
b. Jesus’ comments on an OT usage of Elohim in John 10:30-36

"The word translated angels is elohim, and should read "for thou hast made him a little lower than God.......""

Why doesn’t the Psalmist say "Thou hast made him a little lower than Thyself …" and why does the writer to the Hebrews translate this as angels and base his whole argument on the fact that Jesus needed to be made lower than the angels for the suffering of death.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[2ducklow]

Howdy 2ducklow,

Greetings again. You have given me some things to consider, too much to respond online. I appreciate the info on Apostrophe and will consider your thoughts on make compared with create. Briefly responding to two comments only. Elohim is a unique Hebrew word plural in form and used with a singular verb as you state.

Not always. Whenever the meaning of elohim is plural a plural verb is used. Whenever the meaning of elohim is singular a singular verb is used, Just as in english we say; "the fish are fresh." or "One fish is all I ate." different senses (one plural one singular) but the word has the same form for both (the spelling is the same for both) not the meaning. the meaning is different in both instances. The meaning is not many fish is one fish or one fish is many fish.

I don't find your thinking that Gods is god depending on the verb used to be credible. It sounds like the trinitarian argument that 3 is one. Much more logical to me is that elohim sometimes has a singular sense and sometimes a plural sense which is determined by who the subject is . whether the one true god is meant by elohim or whether demon gods is mean, or whether magistrates or angels is meant.

The teaching of the Bible is that there is one God, and therefore in Genesis 1:1, 26, 27 the translation God is acceptable. Gods in our language would be incorrect as the angels are never independent mighty ones, but "Mighty Ones (He) created" is how I think a thoughtful Hebrew would read this. Elohim in Hebrew appears to have more meaning than simply the word God in English.

Ge 1:27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Elohim created man. man is not the word elohim. You could say perhaps mighty ones created man if you take elohim to mean mighty ones. But I don't see how you could possibly get 'mighty ones (he) created." Nor do I understand what you mean by that phrase. do you mean "elohim created mighty ones"?If so I find that beyond reason.

Without wanting to widen the subject, have you considered:
a. Genesis 3:5 KJV "gods", most modern translations "God". Also the comment in Genesis 3:22 that seems to be linked with Genesis 3:5. Who are the "us" in Genesis 3:22?

Ge 3:5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

DEpends on whether the meaning is false demon gods or the one true god. It's a translators call. could be either one but not both. To say it means both is to delve into the same illogic that says 3 is one.

Ge 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


God, satan, and adam and eve are the only possiblities for 'us' because they are the only ones present durring this discourse if you examine chapter 3. So 'us' refers to God and satan. Satan knows good and evil. angels do not know good and evil, they have no experiental knowledge of evil, so it cannot be angels. God used satan here to drive man out of the garden. It's a different 'Us' than in gen. 1.26.

b. Jesus’ comments on an OT usage of Elohim in John 10:30-36 Why doesn’t the Psalmist say "Thou hast made him a little lower than Thyself …"

Because Jesus is not God he is the son of God.

and why does the writer to the Hebrews translate this as angels and base his whole argument on the fact that Jesus needed to be made lower than the angels for the suffering of death.

good point, the word elohim could be translated either angels or god. I suppose the meaning is angels in this instance. bEcause he is made a little lower than the angels, Jesus is made a lot lower than God. as are we.

Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus was made lower than god but because it says 'a little' lower than elohim, I suppose is the reason it is taken to mean angels. because now Jesus is not lower than angels as we still are, but one day shall be like him that is greater than the angels, but not greater than the one true elohim god.

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy 2ducklow,

Greetings again. I have had a bit more time to look at your earlier replies. The following may not cover every aspect.
A. from you earlier reply

"It's not just that verse it's every verse that refers to elohim the one true god uses the singular tense of the verb not the plural. Not every verse refering to elohim uses the verb to create (bara in hebrew). So one can't say elohim means God and the angels otherwise you get in deut. 6.4
"hear o Isael the Yahweh our God and angels (elohim) is one Yahweh. That would mean angels are yahweh themselves."

I only used Genesis 1:1 as one example to help explain Genesis 1:26-27. Each verse must be considered in its own context. I do believe that the essential meaning by derivation of Elohim is Mighty Ones, and each context must be examined to see whether this has this more exact meaning or whether it is used in a general sense. Some passages come to life when "mighty ones" is appreciated, others it is not important.

Although a different subject, my understanding of God’s Name, Yahweh is in agreement with the margin of the RV and RSV "I will be who I will be" for Exodus 3:14 and thus for Yahweh "He who will be". This translation gives the following meaning to Deuteronomy 6:4 "He who will be mighty ones is one He who will be". I think this is prophetic of God’s purpose to develop mighty ones from the seed of Abraham, as Exodus 3:14 teaches. There may be as many as three or more layers to Deuteronomy 6:4, one speaking of God only, one of God and the angels, one of God’s purpose to develop other mighty ones, whose power will be of God.

"Bara in vs. 27 means to create. asah in vs. 26 means to make. the reason God chose two different verbs is because it is two different events."

I cannot accept that this is two different events, simply because Genesis 1:26,27 uses make and create. They are two different words, but complementary. Adam’s creation was not instantaneous, but he was formed from the dust and given breath, and then Eve was formed from a rib of Adam. This was a process. Undoubtedly the fashioning of the Spiritual image and likeness, the Divine character of grace and truth, takes a lifetime, and with us it is a dim reflection of the Divine likeness. This character has only been fully revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ, he was full of grace and truth.

"I've seen no scripture indicating that angles have the power to create something out of nothing."
"Well even if what you say is true i would have to say god created energy out of nothing."

I do not know why this is part of your logic in rejecting the angels as ministers of God in the creative process. Why do you use the phrase "out of nothing"? Power or energy is one of God’s attributes, and there is no limit to His power. He has never been without all power and energy. God is able to give a portion of his power to angels, and to the prophets like Elijah and to the apostles to work "miracles".

"God is all powerfull he doesnt need anyones help."

Yes, but He delights in involving others in His work. Why did God use angels on many recorded notable occasions, when He could have simply spoken directly from heaven?
B. from you latest reply

"You could say perhaps mighty ones created man if you take elohim to mean mighty ones. But I don't see how you could possibly get 'mighty ones (he) created." Nor do I understand what you mean by that phrase. do you mean "elohim created mighty ones"?If so I find that beyond reason."

I believe that Elohim means mighty ones and that such a phrase as Genesis 1:1 "God created" implies that God working through His ministers the angels created using God’s power. Divine power also implies Divine wisdom to achieve that which is to be accomplished.

"Depends on whether the meaning is false demon gods or the one true god. It's a translators call. could be either one but not both. To say it means both is to delve into the same illogic that says 3 is one."
"angels do not know good and evil, they have no experiental knowledge of evil, so it cannot be angels. God used satan here to drive man out of the garden. It's a different 'Us' than in gen. 1.26."

I believe that the Elohim of Genesis 3:5 and 3:22 are the angels, and the same "us" as Genesis 1:26.

"I suppose the meaning is angels in this instance."

Yes I agree that Elohim in Psalm 8:5 implies the angels. Perhaps a bit harder to prove, I believe that Psalm 8:5 is David’s commentary or summary of Genesis 1:26, showing that to be made in the image and after the likeness of Elohim is not equal to the angels but less than the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[b*unique]

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