generational curses

[AshenK]

Um...that is a definition of your view. I was actually asking for a biblical basis for your view of man being a three faceted personality.



This isn't really a logical conclusion. It's not as if one aspect of our being reflects the Father, another the Son, and the third the Holy Spirit, nor do the members of the Godhead have three distinct aspects to their individual nature.



Okay.



Um...okay.



Well, that was fun. Now can you address the questions I actually asked? I'll restate them for clarity:

• Did God not realize that Lucifer would rebel and become defiled?
• Did God not have the power to stop Lucifer from rebelling?
• How does a perfect being desire imperfection being that it would be contrary to its very nature?

Thanks,
God bless

You asked me, "That's it Is there more?"
You asked me, "Also, can you please address post 115"

I answered both of these, and you split what I said up way too much. Read what I said in context, please.

1) Did God not realize that Lucifer would rebel and become defiled?
2) Did God not have the power to stop Lucifer from rebelling?
3) How does a perfect being desire imperfection being that it would be contrary to its very nature?​

1) I'm sure He did realize, but I believe at some point the angels had a free will to choose.


2) If God stopped Lucifer, there would have been no free will.


3) Free will. Man for exmaple.

 

[Reformationist]

You asked me, "That's it Is there more?"
You asked me, "Also, can you please address post 115"

I answered both of these, and you split what I said up way too much. Read what I said in context, please.

I did read it in context, though there isn't much context to be confused on. You did not address a single question I asked in post 115. As for your understanding of man's trichotomous nature, I had thought it was clear that it was biblical support I was asking about, not your personal thoughts on the matter. Additionally, I did address the comments you made about man's threefold nature. It simply isn't a logical conclusion based on what you presented.

1) I'm sure He did realize, but I believe at some point the angels had a free will to choose.

So God realized it but, even though He was the One who created them with a will to begin with, He either could not or chose to not restrain them? Why would God not seek to accomplish His own will? My confusion stems from the idea that satan's rebellion was contrary to God's will. Now, I am one that will recognize the various wills of God, i.e., decretive, perceptive, or His will of disposition. However, to claim that satan's rebellion was against/contrary to God's law is different than saying what you seem to be saying, which appears to be that satan's rebellion happened despite God's desire that it not happen. Is that your position?

Satan's will, whether it be free or not, to rebel does not stop God from exerting the influence of His will, does it? Is not God's will freer even than satan's? Also, how does this idea of satan's "free will" reconcile with the account of Job, a story in which satan had to ask God for both the permission and the power to afflict Job? Didn't satan have free will then?

2) If God stopped Lucifer, there would have been no free will.

Going by that presumption then you either don't believe man has free will or that God never stops him from doing anything. Is that your position?

3) Free will. Man for exmaple.

AshenK, do you realize you have just purported that free will is responsible for choosing to sin? It is innane to contend that the ability to choose evil results in the actuality of choosing evil.

For example, do you believe man will have "free will" when he is in Heaven, glorified with his Creator? If so, that means that it is possible that those who are confirmed in grace, blessed with eternal life, to sin. Is that something you believe? Remember, if by God's power and providence they are incapable of choosing to commit evil then, according to your answer in #2, they don't have free will.

 

[AshenK]

So God realized it but, even though He was the One who created them with a will to begin with, He either could not or chose to not restrain them? Why would God not seek to accomplish His own will? My confusion stems from the idea that satan's rebellion was contrary to God's will. Now, I am one that will recognize the various wills of God, i.e., decretive, perceptive, or His will of disposition. However, to claim that satan's rebellion was against/contrary to God's law is different than saying what you seem to be saying, which appears to be that satan's rebellion happened despite God's desire that it not happen. Is that your position?

I don't believe God made Lucifer, just so Lucifer could be corrupted. I believe at some point Lucifer chose to go against God.

Satan's will, whether it be free or not, to rebel does not stop God from exerting the influence of His will, does it? Is not God's will freer even than satan's? Also, how does this idea of satan's "free will" reconcile with the account of Job, a story in which satan had to ask God for both the permission and the power to afflict Job? Didn't satan have free will then?

I don't believe it's God's will for the curses to come upon Job. I believe satan already had Job, when he was talking with God.
Because (Job 3:25) the thing Job feared most, came upon him. Satan already had Job through fear. Job allowed satan in his life.

Going by that presumption then you either don't believe man has free will or that God never stops him from doing anything. Is that your position?

I don't believe God stops man from doing what man wants, since God gave dominion to man and told us to subdue it. (Genesis 1:26)

It's God's will for everyone to get saved, but not everyone is going to get saved. God's will doesn't come to pass just because He wants it to. God is bound by His Word, and works through us, when we come into agreement with His Word.

AshenK, do you realize you have just purported that free will is responsible for choosing to sin? It is innane to contend that the ability to choose evil results in the actuality of choosing evil.

Lucifer and all the angels that followed him are responsible for what they did with their free will.

For example, do you believe man will have "free will" when he is in Heaven, glorified with his Creator? If so, that means that it is possible that those who are confirmed in grace, blessed with eternal life, to sin. Is that something you believe? Remember, if by God's power and providence they are incapable of choosing to commit evil then, according to your answer in #2, they don't have free will.

I don't know, and right now on this earth - I don't care.



In love, AshenK

 

[Reformationist]

I don't believe God made Lucifer, just so Lucifer could be corrupted.

Nor do I.

I believe at some point Lucifer chose to go against God.

I agree that he rebelled against God. What I don't agree with is the assertion that his rebellion was not within the providential government of God.

I don't believe it's God's will for the curses to come upon Job. I believe satan already had Job, when he was talking with God.

Neat theory. You're completely wrong but it's not a twist I've heard before.

Because (Job 3:25) the thing Job feared most, came upon him. Satan already had Job through fear. Job allowed satan in his life.

Job was a servant of the Most High. Satan didn't "have him." However, it is a good example of how even the most obedient of humans falls pray to sin if tempted enough.

I don't believe God stops man from doing what man wants, since God gave dominion to man and told us to subdue it. (Genesis 1:26)

AshenK, do you actually study Scripture? I ask because the incident you speak of is prior to the Fall. Additionally, if you do not feel that God stops you from doing what you want, why is it that you pray to God when you struggle with temptation? His grace is sufficient to bring His will to pass, even when man opposes Him.

It's God's will for everyone to get saved, but not everyone is going to get saved. God's will doesn't come to pass just because He wants it to. God is bound by His Word, and works through us, when we come into agreement with His Word.

Okay. Let me see if I follow you.

• God wants everyone to be saved but it won't come to pass.
• God willing something isn't sufficient to ensure it comes to pass.
• God's ability to work through His creation is regulated by their coming in agreement with Him.

I honestly cannot recall having heard a Christian utter such contemptible nonsense in my entire time on this MB. Good thing the universe didn't disagree with Him when He willed it into existance, huh? Poor little God.

Lucifer and all the angels that followed him are responsible for what they did with their free will.

Of course they are responsible. I've never said otherwise. You, however, claim that the reason that satan chose to rebel was because he had free will. The ability to choose contrary to God's authority does not constitute a necessity that one choose contrary to God's authority. As I said, what you said makes absolutely no sense.

I don't know, and right now on this earth - I don't care.

Oh good. Well, that makes sense.

God bless

 

[Asaph]

I have not studied it indepth but the first thing we should do is define what we mean by "a real curse." I don't think that it is necessarily appropriate to call a curse what God has purposed for our good. Now, many may say that they do not see how cancer or some other dibilitating disease or sickness or poverty or other trial is a "good" thing and, to that, I will only say that all things that children of God encounter, even things they may consider a curse, are ordained by God to conform His children to the image of Christ and, in that respect, they are good. We may not enjoy them. We may fail to be godly in the midst of trial. This changes nothing. All things are purposed and governed by the Almighty to conform His children and bring Him glory. How many people who suffer from things we cannot even imagine how to deal with are the most godly and thankful people we have ever met? Take a trip to a children's ward that deals with terminal patients. None of them sit around crying all the time about their sickness. The majority of them have seen the grace of God in their sickness and are more thankful for each day than you or I will ever be. They all have better relationships with other people and are more considerate and caring than anyone we know. Would they call their disease a curse when they see the hand of God giving them peace and love? Is it a curse if it causes their parents and their family and friends to see them for the beautiful creations of God that they are and, because of that, come to God in faith? I would have to say that is a blessing, not a curse. A difficult blessing, to be sure, but a blessing nonetheless.

What do you think?

God bless

What I think is that I was correct that you would know more about it than I, and I know the last few exchanges are even more revelatory in nature than my simple question could even amount to.

In a nutshell, I believe that the Arminian stance creates doctrines of demons. I see the fruits of it displayed over and over on these threads.

If it were not for one small thing, I would proclaim myself a Calvinist. OK, maybe I go too far there, but I am already much more likely to proclaim myself a restored Christian, than I am likely to call myself a Protestant. Protestant is a RC term designed to subjugate anyone who is not RC. I do not allow myself to be called that for that reason.

Asaph

 

[AshenK]

I agree that he rebelled against God. What I don't agree with is the assertion that his rebellion was not within the providential government of God.

Yes, I'm sure Satan had to okay His rebellion with God. Riiiight. Where do you get that idea?

Neat theory. You're completely wrong but it's not a twist I've heard before.

It's not a twist. How is it a twist?

Job was a servant of the Most High. Satan didn't "have him." However, it is a good example of how even the most obedient of humans falls pray to sin if tempted enough.

Falling prey to fear, let Satan beat up Job. God didn't will it on Job, lol.

AshenK, do you actually study Scripture? I ask because the incident you speak of is prior to the Fall. Additionally, if you do not feel that God stops you from doing what you want, why is it that you pray to God when you struggle with temptation? His grace is sufficient to bring His will to pass, even when man opposes Him.

Your saying, "Why do you choose to pray to stopped from choosing?" Correct me if I'm wrong.

Okay. Let me see if I follow you.

1)God wants everyone to be saved but it won't come to pass.
2)God willing something isn't sufficient to ensure it comes to pass.
3)God's ability to work through His creation is regulated by their coming in agreement with Him.

I honestly cannot recall having heard a Christian utter such contemptible nonsense in my entire time on this MB. Good thing the universe didn't disagree with Him when He willed it into existance, huh? Poor little God.

1)2Peter3:9 -The Lord, is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It's God's will that no one go to hell, but they do anyways.
2)I never said that, don't understand it, and don't agree with it.
3)God's ability to work through his creation is regulated by their coming into agreement with His Word

Of course they are responsible. I've never said otherwise. You, however, claim that the reason that satan chose to rebel was because he had free will. The ability to choose contrary to God's authority does not constitute a necessity that one choose contrary to God's authority. As I said, what you said makes absolutely no sense.

Right. I think what you said makes no sense.

 

[Reformationist]

Yes, I'm sure Satan had to okay His rebellion with God. Riiiight. Where do you get that idea?

I really dislike discussing these issues with one year old posters. It has been my experience that one year old posters act like they are one year old. For instance, I make a very clear statement regarding God's sovereign government of His creation and along comes a one year old and makes a comment that shows he is either not paying attention to the topic or that the topic is over his head.

It's not a twist. How is it a twist?

Okay. Maybe twist was too kind. How do feel about "tripe?"

Falling prey to fear, let Satan beat up Job. God didn't will it on Job, lol.

Quickly growing board of discussing this with someone so immature...

Your saying, "Why do you choose to pray to stopped from choosing?" Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, as that sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, no, I'm not saying that.

1)2Peter3:9 -The Lord, is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It's God's will that no one go to hell, but they do anyways.

First off, the efficacy of the atonement is not the primary focus of 2 Peter 3:9. It's a verse about the second coming. Secondly, look at the verse:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Which promise? The promise to return (v.4). To whom did Jesus make the promise?

• Beloved (v. 1)
• Those with a pure mind (v. 1)
• Beloved (v. 8)
• Those to whom He is long suffering (v. 9)

Rendered in this manner, the verse is much easier to understand:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise to us, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us should come to repentance.

The promise is made to believers and it is believers that God is not willing to perish.

2)I never said that, don't understand it, and don't agree with it.

Let me refresh your memory: "God's will doesn't come to pass just because He wants it to."

You did say it and it was as vile then as it is now, whether you understand it or not.

3)God's ability to work through his creation is regulated by their coming into agreement with His Word

I have no clue why you italicized "His Word" as if that changes anything. You speak blasphemy when you state that the creation regulates the ability of the Creator.

Right. I think what you said makes no sense.

Okay. I'll try again. Just because satan had the ability to sin doesn't mean that he must sin. You attributed satan's choice to sin to his ability to sin. I have the ability to do many things that I pray I do not choose to do. Ability does not neccessitate actuality.

That clearer?

 

[AshenK]

I really dislike discussing these issues with one year old posters. It has been my experience that one year old posters act like they are one year old. For instance, I make a very clear statement regarding God's sovereign government of His creation and along comes a one year old and makes a comment that shows he is either not paying attention to the topic or that the topic is over his head.

I avoid your opinion and post my own, thus you liken me unto a 1-year old.
Perhaps you could set a better example, for those "1-year olds", haha.

Quickly growing board of discussing this with someone so immature...

Name-calling doesn't help you prove a point.

First off, the efficacy of the atonement is not the primary focus of 2 Peter 3:9. It's a verse about the second coming. Secondly, look at the verse:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Which promise? The promise to return (v.4). To whom did Jesus make the promise?

• Beloved (v. 1)
• Those with a pure mind (v. 1)
• Beloved (v. 8)
• Those to whom He is long suffering (v. 9)

Rendered in this manner, the verse is much easier to understand:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise to us, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us should come to repentance.

The promise is made to believers and it is believers that God is not willing to perish.

II Peter 3:9 applies to everyone.
I assume you are one of those calvanists.

Let me refresh your memory: "God's will doesn't come to pass just because He wants it to."

You did say it and it was as vile then as it is now, whether you understand it or not.

It's true.


God gave dominion to man, and man gave it to Satan at the fall. Jesus came (in the form of a man) through the covenant of Abraham, and redeemed man from the curse, thus giving man dominion back. That's why God must work through us, to perform His will. He's goes by His Word, which is God's will.


In love, AshenK

 

[Entertaining_Angels]

Why is it people who mock, belittle and berate end their posts with things like "in love" and "God bless"

Something's missing here...

 

[Reformationist]

I avoid your opinion and post my own, thus you liken me unto a 1-year old.

If that is your technique then we are not having a discussion and we needn't waste any more time. As for "likening you to a 1 year old," well, you're the one who displays that age under your username. I doubt you're only one year old so I figured it was a reference to something else. Don't worry though, you fit the bill.

Perhaps you could set a better example, for those "1-year olds", haha.

Perhaps.

II Peter 3:9 applies to everyone.

This, in and of itself, shows your lack of scholarly approach to the Gospel. Try starting at 2 Pet 1:1, which is addressed to "those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ," i.e., believers, and see if the audience changes from 1:1 to 3:9. You see, Peter was talking to believers so when he said, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" we know that he is still talking to, and about, believers.

I assume you are one of those calvanists.

I am a student of the Gospel. If you feel the need to label me, you may call me a Christian.

It's true.

God gave dominion to man, and man gave it to Satan at the fall. Jesus came (in the form of a man) through the covenant of Abraham, and redeemed man from the curse, thus giving man dominion back. That's why God must work through us, to perform His will. He's goes by His Word, which is God's will.

AshenK, I truly pity you for the image you have of God. The god of your posts is nothing more than an impotent being who is unworthy of anyone's worship.

I pray that the true God of Scripture enlightens you to the error in your thinking. It is a earth shattering experience to be shown that all of the credit you give to yourself is truly due to God alone. It is so edifying to understand that the love of God which proceeds from His being will always accomplish His will and nothing can stop it.

 

[holo]

Guys, I think you missed this post:

Why is it people who mock, belittle and berate end their posts with things like "in love" and "God bless"

Something's missing here...

 

[Asaph]

AshenK, I truly pity you for the image you have of God. The god of your posts is nothing more than an impotent being who is unworthy of anyone's worship.

I pray that the true God of Scripture enlightens you to the error in your thinking. It is a earth shattering experience to be shown that all of the credit you give to yourself is truly due to God alone. It is so edifying to understand that the love of God which proceeds from His being will always accomplish His will and nothing can stop it.

Yes it is, and I will ever lay all Glory and Praise at His feet.

I am the luckiest guy on the planet that God saved me. I sometimes feel I will spend all of eternity trying to put that into words that actually express my gratitude.

Asaph

 

[AshenK]

If that is your technique then we are not having a discussion and we needn't waste any more time. As for "likening you to a 1 year old," well, you're the one who displays that age under your username. I doubt you're only one year old so I figured it was a reference to something else. Don't worry though, you fit the bill.



Perhaps.



This, in and of itself, shows your lack of scholarly approach to the Gospel. Try starting at 2 Pet 1:1, which is addressed to "those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ," i.e., believers, and see if the audience changes from 1:1 to 3:9. You see, Peter was talking to believers so when he said, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" we know that he is still talking to, and about, believers.



I am a student of the Gospel. If you feel the need to label me, you may call me a Christian.



AshenK, I truly pity you for the image you have of God. The god of your posts is nothing more than an impotent being who is unworthy of anyone's worship.

I pray that the true God of Scripture enlightens you to the error in your thinking. It is a earth shattering experience to be shown that all of the credit you give to yourself is truly due to God alone. It is so edifying to understand that the love of God which proceeds from His being will always accomplish His will and nothing can stop it.

What's your problem. I've never done anything to you, and you are so offensive. If how I believe the Bible disgusts you, then I'd hate to see how much more lost people disgust you.

 

[holo]

Hey, those are my thoughts exactly, Asaph!
I've actually and seriously reached the conclusion that the reason heaven is eternal is because that's the amount of time I will need to thank Him enough.

 

[Asaph]

Hey, those are my thoughts exactly, Asaph!
I've actually and seriously reached the conclusion that the reason heaven is eternal is because that's the amount of time I will need to thank Him enough.

Isn't this one of the most astounding, hopeful, and amazing little pieces of the Word of God you have ever read?

Eph 3:16-19
17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height-- 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
NKJV

Oh my. What a statement.

Ummm, mmmm.

God so blows my mind.

Asaph

 

[Reformationist]

What's your problem.

I have many problems. Is there any one in particular you wish to point out? By the way, while you're bringing my shortcomings to light, spend a little time to see if you suffer from those same shortcomings. If you're honest with yourself you may see that I am not the only one with a problem.

I've never done anything to you, and you are so offensive.

I know. You're the paradigm of godliness and I'm the big bad demon. Sure.

If how I believe the Bible disgusts you, then I'd hate to see how much more lost people disgust you.

Nice try. Those who are lost do not disgust me at all. You see AshenK, those who do not yet know the love of God are the ones with whom I can strive to show the magnitude of God's gracious countenance in the world. When a Christian, like yourself, views God as nothing more than an impotent being that strives for something He already knows is not going to come to pass I begin to think they are going to do more damage than good.

 

[holo]

to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
NKJV

Oh my. What a statement.

Ummm, mmmm.

God so blows my mind.

Asaph

Oh yeah. It PASSES knowledge. Knowledge bloats, love edifies.

Last night I was feeling kinda down, wondering if I mean anything to anyone at all. I asked myself "what do I want to do?", and it was like my heart leaped and yelled "I want to love people".
So far from how it used to be, when fulfilment meant a day off and loud music and peace meant rohypnol and the fruits of the Spirit was praying for a few minutes to ease my consciousness.

The more He gives me, the less worthy I feel. The greater his love, the smaller the things I fail to show it in. It is truly His goodness that calls me to repentance - seeing his grace makes me beg for more and see how much I need it.

Words, words...

Jefferson Airplane said it better than most preachers; "you better find somebody to love".