General Philosophy

[Walter Kovacs]

Topic numero uno:

Properly Basic Beliefs (Alvin Planting)

We cannot prove that we weren't created 5 minutes ago with a lifetime of meories, food in our stomachs, etc, yet it is not irrational to believe so. Good or bad argument, and why or why not?





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In the spirit of discussion, I'd ask that if you post, please post relevant answers to the original discussion topics (free will/lack thereof/problem of evil) or at the very least relevant answers to questions and issues raised. Please, don't just post random Bible verses or large chunks of text that don't really have too much to do with the immediate questions. Please also refrain from statements about how useless you think things like apologetics, philosophy and reasoning together are.

"Come, let us reason together."
-Isaiah 1:18

"So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there."
-Acts 17:17

"Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."
-Acts 18:4

 

[judechild]

I believe you mean "Plantinga;" is it rational for me to believe that my memory of the philosopher's name is correct, although I cannot prove it is so until you concur?

That being (annoyingly) said; my answer is yes because the simplest solution to the problem of how I came to have a memory of the events in my percieved past is that I actually experienced them. Occam's Razor supports Plantinga's proposal.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

I believe you mean "Plantinga;" is it rational for me to believe that my memory of the philosopher's name is correct, although I cannot prove it is so until you concur?

Heh. Good one. Allow me to present my 5 Ways to show how right I am

 

[cubinity]

Why even bothering there is time at all?

The universe is this static thing.

We simply perceive change from our relative position.

We measure those perceived changes as the passage of time.

This is all rational, too, isn't it?

 

[Armistead14]

Topic numero uno:

Properly Basic Beliefs (Alvin Planting)

We cannot prove that we weren't created 5 minutes ago with a lifetime of meories, food in our stomachs, etc, yet it is not irrational to believe so. Good or bad argument, and why or why not?





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In the spirit of discussion, I'd ask that if you post, please post relevant answers to the original discussion topics (free will/lack thereof/problem of evil) or at the very least relevant answers to questions and issues raised. Please, don't just post random Bible verses or large chunks of text that don't really have too much to do with the immediate questions. Please also refrain from statements about how useless you think things like apologetics, philosophy and reasoning together are.

"Come, let us reason together."
-Isaiah 1:18

"So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there."
-Acts 17:17

"Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."
-Acts 18:4

We can all prove pretty much when we were created with evidence, our physical birth, parents, pictures, etc..That's not speculation, that's hard proof, so not sure what you're getting at. The fact we are creatures of physical matter prove that we were physically born...

 

[cubinity]

We can all prove pretty much when we were created with evidence, our physical birth, parents, pictures, etc..That's not speculation, that's hard proof, so not sure what you're getting at. The fact we are creatures of physical matter prove that we were physically born...

Someone doesn't understand...

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Ignorance is bliss...

 

[cubinity]

Ignorance is bliss...

If only philosophy actually told us something about the way the world really works.

 

[dayhiker]

the fun of thought experiments. No reason to be even created 5 minutes ago. We are just a sub thought in God's active mind.

 

[Tim Myers]

In order for any one of us to have been created five minutes ago and, by default, all our supposed memories to have been created five minutes ago as well, would require that all the physical people, places and things which we attach those memories to need to have been created five minutes ago along with everything else in the universe...........

 

[judechild]

Yes, what Tim says is the same as saying that Occam's Razor cuts the plausibility of five-minutes-ago-creation. It's far simpler to say that things have existed for longer.

 

[cubinity]

Yes, what Tim says is the same as saying that Occam's Razor cuts the plausibility of five-minutes-ago-creation. It's far simpler to say that things have existed for longer.

Simpler only because that is the assumption coming into the conversation?

Not simpler in an objective sense, IMO.

Actual thousands/trillions of years of history is far more complex than the illusion of that same history and the development of any relevant corroborating evidence.

Think about movies. They don't start at the beginning of the universe every time, and then bring us up to speed to the characters/events of the plot. That would be ridiculously complicated/difficult/redundant.

Instead, the movie starts with the characters/events of the plot, and we discover the relevant history as we go through that, just as it is in our lives.

I wouldn't use Occam's Razor to say that every assumption I have about the world/time/history must be true because it is easier to believe that than to consider that I've been wrong all along.

 

[judechild]

Simpler only because that is the assumption coming into the conversation?

Not simpler in an objective sense, IMO.

It is simpler because a supernatural explanation is a change in the natural order. The natural order is complex in itself, but simple as an explanation.

Exempli gratia, gravity is a natural force that involves the attraction of all bodies to each other. It involves all the bodies in the universe, but as an explanation for why the apple falls to the ground, gravity is a simpler explanation than to attribute it to a war between two divine beings playing tug of war with the apple.

The same is true here. It is a simpler explanation to attribute my acquisition of memory to the fact that I actually experienced them, not that God directly implanted the memories into my mind.

 

[cubinity]

It is simpler because a supernatural explanation is a change in the natural order. The natural order is complex in itself, but simple as an explanation.

Exempli gratia, gravity is a natural force that involves the attraction of all bodies to each other. It involves all the bodies in the universe, but as an explanation for why the apple falls to the ground, gravity is a simpler explanation than to attribute it to a war between two divine beings playing tug of war with the apple.

The same is true here. It is a simpler explanation to attribute my acquisition of memory to the fact that I actually experienced them, not that God directly implanted the memories into my mind.

And yet you believe God created you, no?

You believe God created everything, no?

I was speaking to a Catholic, whom I assumed already maintained the belief of a Creator. My apologies.

Assuming we are abandoning the notion of Creator altogether, yes, I would agree that it is simpler to say there is no creator, and that the nature order explains the phenomenon I experience.

However, as a Christian, I do believe in a Creator God, and in so doing, the simpler explanation is that He made everything about me and my experiences just now, and not progressively between thousands/trillions of years ago to now.

So, which way are you going to have it? Is there a Creator, or not? That is the axiom your argument must now address if you hope to perpetuate it.

 

[judechild]

And yet you believe God created you, no?

You believe God created everything, no?

I was speaking to a Catholic, whom I assumed already maintained the belief of a Creator. My apologies.

Your apologies are accepted. It really is not necessary to be so angry, sir; this is a forum for philosophy. Let's reason.

So, which way are you going to have it? Is there a Creator, or not? That is the axiom your argument must now address if you hope to perpetuate it.

As regards creation, the simpler explanation for the creation of the universe as it is is that a "mind" outside the universe is responsible for its existence.

It's become known as the Anthropic Principle. This concept is the observation that the universe appears fine-tuned to the development of human life. Some of the factors it describes are that things such as strong nuclear forces, weak nuclear forces, gratitation, et cetera are all such that any slight alteration in them would not allow for human life to develop (or, often times, for any atoms above helium to form). It is exceedingly unlikely that these factors would just happen to occur, in precisely the correct arrangement.

So there are three possibilities: luck, Multiverse, and "Mind Outside of the Universe."

The first is possible, but implausible: it is true that it was extraordinarily unlikely that these factors added up... but they did. We are simply very lucky.

The second is also possible. The Multiverse is the idea that there are an infinite or near-infinite number of universes which occupy existence, all of which presumably have different arrangements of forces. This universe happens to have the correct arrangement

This idea cannot be disproven because, of course, there is no way to observe "a universe." Its main problem, though, is that it shares more with the example I gave of the two deities battling over the apple, then it does with gravity. The Multiverse requires the concept of an infinite number of things outside the universe; believing creation by God requires only one.

A belief in Creation as the beginning of things is different from believing that it was all created five minutes ago. It is simpler to say that God Created, and it is simpler to say that He did not program everyone's memory, and set every up like the beginning of a movie scene.