General Epithle

[Cribstyl]

Hbr 6:1¶Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hbr 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.



Some people have not caught on to the fact that what is called the milk of the word are teachings primarily layed out in the ministry of Paul in his letters to Gentile nations whom never knew God.

According to what is said above "laying again" means going back over these teachings. " The foundation of repentance from dead works," is otherwise known as "the doctrine of sin".
I'm sure you guys know about "the doctrine of baptism", "resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

Hopefully we can look for and find those elementary discussions in Paul's letters of what is called the doctrine of faith or "faith toward God."
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Jam 3:13Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

It is written that God save us through the folishness of preaching. But some facts cant change, the gospel is good news, easy to swallow. It's all about Jesus Christ.
Yes, It is true that some of it is bitter to the taste like medicine. The fact is, The truth is not a scary message about what the Pope is doing or what Sunday worship represents......

 

[k4c]

Faith is only the means by which we walk. 2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

It has no saving power in itself. James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

It must be accompanied by knowledge. James 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Works are not blind acts that we do, but rather, they are acts based on foundational principles found in God's Law. Romans 2:13 The people who only listen to law are not right with God, but the people who obey law are the ones who are made right with God.

We have to come to understand that the Law promotes liberty. It frees people to live without fear of crime, it keeps God and man and man and man in fellowship. Those who understand this will use the Law as a means to nurture the abundant life and will be blessed in all that he does. James 1:22-25 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.

Without faith, all this is foolishness.

I guess Cribstyl don't like me anymore...

 

[Cribstyl]

I guess Cribstyl don't like me anymore...

.....will respond.

 

[Cribstyl]

Faith is only the means by which we walk. 2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Sez who? That text is only one aspect of faith.
The bible also say whatever is not of faith is sin.
The bible say faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not sin.
The bible say without faith it is impossible to please God.
Now tell us K4c, what do you mean by only

It has no saving power in itself. James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Faith in God is has power, empty faith is just lip service. Until you sit on a chair, or put on skates and glide you may not have faith to reach those goals. You have to "do faith". Dont get it twisted "Faith in God saves men." You actually just flipmode from saying with the scripture, "believe in the Lord and thou shalt be saved."

It must be accompanied by knowledge. James 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

OK

Works are not blind acts that we do, but rather, they are acts based on foundational principles found in God's Law. Romans 2:13 The people who only listen to law are not right with God, but the people who obey law are the ones who are made right with God.

Paul is being isolated taken out of context....

He's actually actually giving a scenario of two kind of people who have the law in red bellow.

In green bellow, Paul's words are about Gentiles who were never under the law. (we've been through this, you ignor my posts)

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

We have to come to understand that the Law promotes liberty. It frees people to live without fear of crime, it keeps God and man and man and man in fellowship. Those who understand this will use the Law as a means to nurture the abundant life and will be blessed in all that he does. James 1:22-25 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.

You have tunnel vision on the 10.com. The truth is, most SDA dont acknowledge James has his own writing style. They use the "all scripture is good clause. Truth is, In this book He calls the commandment to love "the perfect law" "the law of liberty", and "the royal law according to the scriptures". Please test it out. He talking about 1commandment not the law.

Without faith, all this is foolishness.

I could'nt have said it better myself

 

[Cribstyl]

Church was awesome....Madison Mission SDA Huntville AL.
Carribean Day Celebration.......Excellence..............Bravo.

 

[Cribstyl]

Until faith in Christ was shown to us as the way of becoming right with God, we were guarded by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until we could put our faith in the coming Savior.

 

[k4c]

Until faith in Christ was shown to us as the way of becoming right with God, we were guarded by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until we could put our faith in the coming Savior.

What power did the Law have to keep one under guard? It was the fear of the death penalty for breaking God's Law that kept the people under guard. Grace comes through faith in Jesus, not lawlessness. In the new covenant it's no longer fear that constrains us or keeps us under guard, but rather, love.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constrains us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

[taikachanz]

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

We can get tunnelvision on certian subjects and talk about Sabbath, the ten commandments, David, Daniel and the three Hebrew boys and never know the words of the New Covenant we're under and especially what Jesus has done for us.....

Faith is a doctrine we need to examine together...from both our understanding.
​

Or we can choose to ignore the plain teachings being set forth before us.

I do however agree that a clear understanding of the new covenant and what it means would go a long way in aiding our understanding in all things.

Cribstyl, I too would like to know your understanding of want the "new covenant" is as it appears there is quite abit of confusion on this issue.

Please all, allow Crib to respond first. Thank you

 

[Cribstyl]

Cribstyl, I too would like to know your understanding of what the "new covenant" is as it appears there is quite abit of confusion on this issue.

There a long list of of issues that connects to understanding the New Covenant. There are several answers that I can give you.
The shortest answer is; The New Covenant is the New Testament of the bible. So, you should be clear that you have your New Covenant in writing.

The first thing is a good understanding of "what is a covenant?".
A covenant is an agreement between two or more people. It obligates the parties to perform what's in the covenant (or agreement)
The Abraham Covenant is considered the mother of all covenants because in it, God obligated Himself make Abraham a father of many nations and to bless all nations of the world through Abahams Seed, who is Jesus. The Abrahamic covenant is said to be an everlasting covenant because the promised blessings are both a literal promised land and a spiritual promiseland in Heaven. It also have and a literal seed Isaac and a literal/spiritual seed Jesus.



We should also have a good understanding of "righteousness" because this term is more linked to doing what God requires of us rather than keeping something that God has not covenanted or commanded of your generation.



The story of Abraham is key to understanding what the New Covenant contains and what it does not contain. The New Testament uses the contents of the Abrahamic Covenant to teach us that the Abrahamic Covenant did not have the law. Some people miss the fact that Paul is explaining the law was a (Old)covenant added to the everlasting covenant.

After the COI were set free from Egypt, they disobeyed God, causing 40yrs of wondering in the wilderness and needing a law because of their transgressions against God at that time. The New Testament asks and answers the question plainly; NKJV - Gal 3:19 -What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.




In Genesis 12 we can notice in the first meeting between God and Abraham, that God promised through Abraham, all the nations of the world would be blessed. This covenant is know as an everlasting covenant because fulfullment of it's prophetic implications points to all nations being blessed through His Seed Jesus. God's plan to bless the world is accurately summarized in Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We cannot ignor how the bible narrative chases after the Abrahamic Covenant Exd 2:24And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
So God raised Moses from a baby to help deliver them from Egypt.
To have Moses with the law in His hand saying;
Deu 5:2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.

This tells us that the law was not in the Abrahamic Covenant and it was the words of the Mosaic or Old covenant.
The law was added to the Abrahamic covenant
There's more to know but I'll pause for dialog or questions.

 

[taikachanz]

.

There's more to know but I'll pause for dialog or questions.

I'm printing his reponse out to formulate a proper response to shortly be post. Y'all be patient.

 

[taikachanz]

There a long list of of issues that connects to understanding the New Covenant. There are several answers that I can give you.
The shortest answer is; The New Covenant is the New Testament of the bible. So, you should be clear that you have your New Covenant in writing.

The first thing is a good understanding of "what is a covenant?".
A covenant is an agreement between two or more people. It obligates the parties to perform what's in the covenant (or agreement)
The Abraham Covenant is considered the mother of all covenants because in it, God obligated Himself make Abraham a father of many nations and to bless all nations of the world through Abahams Seed, who is Jesus. The Abrahamic covenant is said to be an everlasting covenant because the promised blessings are both a literal promised land and a spiritual promiseland in Heaven. It also have and a literal seed Isaac and a literal/spiritual seed Jesus.

Nice "commentary", however it seems you miss the mark by a long way. Explaining the "New Covenant" by invoking the "Old Covenant", and you do a poor job of it, does not explain the "New Covenant".

If everyone will be patient and refrain from comment I will tary to post a series to help "all" understand the "new Covenant" using, as Cribstyl insists on a majority of his posts be done, biblical scriptures, old and new, to support what is posted.

Firstly, ther was and now is only one covenant and there for there can be only one answer to what that convenant entails. To claim that there are several answers is to admit confusion and misunderstanding.

Secondly, Explaining what a covenant is by referencing the Abrahamic covenant does not explain what a covenant is, more evidence of not understanding the topic.

What is a covenant?

In Old Testament times covenants were made between individual parties and/or nation, party to party, party to nation, nation to nation. Terms were worked out and agreed upon and solidified by oaths spoken by both parties accompanied by the sacrifice of a specified animal for each party involved. No covenant was completed nor considered valid without the shedding of blood. Each party to the covenant supplied a goat, ram, or bull and words to the effect of "Let what is done to these be done to me should I break this covenant." The throats of the beasts were slit and the blood sprinkled on what ever the covenant was written upon thus sealing the that covenant for whatever specified time the covenant was to last agreed to by the parties concerned. These oaths were not taken lightly, so covenant making was a serious, nha, a life and death matter.

We should also have a good understanding of "righteousness" because this term is more linked to doing what God requires of us rather than keeping something that God has not covenanted or commanded of your generation.

Let's not get off track here, we are discussing the "New Covenant". We can deal with "righteousness" on another thread or we can continue it here later.

The story of Abraham is key to understanding what the New Covenant contains and what it does not contain. The New Testament uses the contents of the Abrahamic Covenant to teach us that the Abrahamic Covenant did not have the law. Some people miss the fact that Paul is explaining the law was a (Old)covenant added to the everlasting covenant.

Actually, the whole history of Israel is the key to understanding the "New Covenant" as it was to Israel the the promise of a "New Covenant" was given. Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" I fully intend to use the rest of this scripture later, but for now, for the point I am trying to make this much will suffice.

So points to show the history of what a covenant is and does.

Point 1. God's covenant with Abram (Abraham)

Genesis 12 does not entail a covenant, it entails a promise. Not only is it a promise it is a conditional promise, if you do such and such I will do such and such, if you don't do such and such I won't do such and such. There are no dire consequences for failing to respond to a conditional promise unless specifically stated what those consequences are. Covenants are different, they are sealed by an oath, as has already been shown, by both parties. Genesis 12 is not a covenant.

Not until Genesis 13:14-18, after Lot had departed, did Abram (Abraham) acknowledge God's promise through sacrifice, yet, this was not yet a completed covenant for the Lord had not yet made a riciprical sacrifice for his portion of the covenant. This did not occur until years later in Genesis 15:9-10 were God, using Abram as his priest, had Abram sacrifice "a heifer of three years and a she goat of three years and a bull of three years and a turtle dove and a pigeon.", completing His, God's, portion of the covenant agreement. (Note: all the animals sacrificed were also the very types that were required to be used in the temple sacrifices of the children of Israel.)

Point 2 What was in the covenant between God and Abram (Abraham)

Genesis 15: 18 "In the same day the Lord made a covenant (remember the sacrifices) with Abram saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:"Then he, God, names all the nations that will be deposed so Abram's seed may occupy the promised land. Note he is talking about the seed that will occupy the land, not the seed that will come and save the whole of the earth, two different time periods for his seed.

This was the covenant, but along with this covenant went all the earlier promises: Genesis 12:2-3, Genesis 13:14-17, Genesis 15:13-16. These were what God agreed to do. What did Abram agree to do?

God also supplemented the covenant in Genesis 17 wherein he instituted circumcision as a designation between God and Abraham's seed, for at this time God had also given Abram a new name. The institution of circumcision was also to distinquish the followers of God from those who followed other gods. In essence it was, for the time being, God's visible mark upon his people.

We also find in Genesis 26: why God completed his covenant with Abraham and why he was extending the covenant to Isaac. "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes and my laws."

Point 3 God had specific requirements for Abraham and his seed to fulfill to be considered righteous.

Abraham was afforded righteous because of his faith in God, which lead to his obedience to "my voice", "my charge", "my commandments", "my statutes", and "my laws". For Abraham, these did not need to be codified in essence they were "written" on his heart and in his "forehead" or in his "remembrance". Do you think he would have passed them onto Isaac? How about Isaac to Jacob or Jacob to his twelve sons? Can we get an idea of what these "charges, commandments, statutes and laws" might be by studying the history of these people?
Perhaps we should.

Patience people, this is leading up to the New Covenant, it's just going to take some time. Want to be thorough y'know.

Let's pause for comment

 

[Cribstyl]

Nice "commentary", however it seems you miss the mark by a long way. Explaining the "New Covenant" by invoking the "Old Covenant", and you do a poor job of it, does not explain the "New Covenant".

If everyone will be patient and refrain from comment I will tary to post a series to help "all" understand the "new Covenant" using, as Cribstyl insists on a majority of his posts be done, biblical scriptures, old and new, to support what is posted.

Firstly, ther was and now is only one covenant and there for there can be only one answer to what that convenant entails. To claim that there are several answers is to admit confusion and misunderstanding.

Secondly, Explaining what a covenant is by referencing the Abrahamic covenant does not explain what a covenant is, more evidence of not understanding the topic.

Nice, I thought you was looking to hear my argument, rather than someone looking to nullify and discredit my response.

Lets see what your opening remarks mean to me..........
1)I missed it by a long way
2)I did a poor job of explaining the New Covenant by invoking the Old Covenant.
3)I did not explain the New Covenant.

4)There is only one covenant
5) claiming several answers adds confusion and misunderstanding
6) Referencing Abraham is more evidence of not understanding the topic
7) You want everyone to patient and wait for you to present a series with text (Crib insisted)


There is so much I want to say in response, but I'll chose to address those 7 issues as efficiently as I can.

 

[Cribstyl]

Explaining what a covenant is by referencing the Abrahamic covenant does not explain what a covenant is, more evidence of not understanding the topic.

Not fair, I first defined a covenant by saying; A covenant is an agreement between two or more people. It obligates the parties to perform what's in the covenant (or agreement). Do you have issue with that explanation?

Genesis 12 does not entail a covenant, it entails a promise. Not only is it a promise it is a conditional promise, if you do such and such I will do such and such, if you don't do such and such I won't do such and such. There are no dire consequences for failing to respond to a conditional promise unless specifically stated what those consequences are. Covenants are different, they are sealed by an oath, as has already been shown, by both parties. Genesis 12 is not a covenant.

You're exposing your lack of knowlege of the scriptures

Peter and Paul can help some......

Gen 12:3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
(surely you mistaken about what the new testament proves to be both the promise and the Abrahamic Covenant.)

Peter said; Act 3:25Ye are the children of the prophets,and of the covenant which God made with our fathers,saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Paul said; Gal 3:8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.


The whole bible teaches God's plan to save all the nations of the world. Arguing about law and creation sabbath runs past the fact that God's covenants are His requirements for righteousness.

Let's not get off track here, we are discussing the "New Covenant". We can deal with "righteousness" on another thread or we can continue it here later.

Really?...... If you understood what "righteousness" is and how it ties in to all this, you would also understand why the law have nothing to do with the New Covenant. Rom 4:13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. "Righteousness by Faith" has nothing to do with through keeping the law. Faith is about believing in Jesus as oppose to the law (circumcision) keeping all the commandments. Old Covenant and New Covenant.

While scriptures is explaining Abraham was righteous by faith (not works of the law), because he obeyed God's words when he was asked to leave his fatherHbr 11:8 and also when he was asked to sacrifice Isaac,Hbr 11:17 your commentary on Abraham often implies that Abraham was under the law (Gen26) and kept the ten commandments. This is seen as an attempt to contradict what is written.

 

[taikachanz]

Not fair, I first defined a covenant by saying; A covenant is an agreement between two or more people. It obligates the parties to perform what's in the covenant (or agreement). Do you have issue with that explanation?

No, what I had an issue with was your opening statement:

There are several answers that I can give you.

You're exposing your lack of knowlege of the scriptures

Peter and Paul can help some......

Gen 12:3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Read my post again, I explain when the covenant between God and Abram came into effect and what it entailed or don't you read good.

[/quote]
I referenced Abraham because scriptures say and proves the promise was also an everlasting covenant Act 3:25Ye are the children of the prophets,and of the covenant which God made with our fathers,saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.[/quote]

Reference last comment

Gal 3:8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Getting ahead of the topic flow

The whole bible teaches God plan to save all the nations of the world. Arguing the law at creation to prove sabbath is runs past the fact that God's covenants are His requirements for righteousness.

And what I will eventually get to.

Really?...... If you understood what "righteousness" is and how it ties in to all this , you would also understand why the law have nothing to do with the New Covenant. Rom 4:13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Faith is about believing in Jesus as oppose to the law (circumcision) keeping all the commandments. Old Covenant and New Covenant.
While scripture is explaining Abraham was righteous by faith (not works of the law), because he obeyed God's words when he was asked to leave his fatherHbr 11:8 and also when he was asked to sacrifice Isaac,Hbr 11:17 your commentary often focuses about the law that Abraham kept (Gen26) included the sabbath

This too will be arrived at as well.

I dont get a chance to show you that God adopts us,

This I know

and the law is not in the equation under the New Covenant.

We shall see. But it's bedtime now..later

 

[Cribstyl]

The Law will condemn you whether you have faith or not. Do you think your faith alone will save you?

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

When we come to Jesus for the first time He cleanses us (justifies) and makes us right (righteous) before God. But that's just the doorway. You have a whole life ahead of you to grow and make right choices based on God's will. Otherwise, your faith is dead.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So you might as well open that bottle of rum with Captain Jack Sparrow and enjoy your tropical island paradise.

These scriptures are not talking about works of the law, (you are creating a contradiction)
It's talking about works of faith not works of the law.
-------------------------------------------------------------



Rom 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


Phl 3:9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:





Rom 16:25¶Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


The doctrine of faith is the Gospel and a commandment from God that eveyone should heed and obey. It was not known from the Law and the Prophets.