Gender roles/predisposition

[drstevej]

Had you read the book before you had him speak at your retreat? Not to be argumentative - but am curious as to why you'd have a guest speaker that you don't really agree with.

I did not book him to speak. I read the book after.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

The author spoke at our mens retreat a while back and I read the book. Seemed a bit Harlequin Romance to me. I resist generic roles that come out of romantic archetypes.

I get that. There's certainly a lot of generalising in the book, and it definitely won't refer to all men. But, I suppose am wondering if this isn't a chicken/egg scenario... that is to say, do roles spring (...spring rolls... ) from archetypes, or are the archetypes borne out of the roles?

Regarding the fella himself, did he seem like a nice bloke? Am really hoping he was very kind

 

[drstevej]

I get that. There's certainly a lot of generalising in the book, and it definitely won't refer to all men. But, I suppose am wondering if this isn't a chicken/egg scenario... that is to say, do roles spring (...spring rolls... ) from archetypes, or are the archetypes borne out of the roles?

Regarding the fella himself, did he seem like a nice bloke? Am really hoping he was very kind

He is a really nice guy and a good speaker.

 

[edie19]

I did not book him to speak. I read the book after.

thanks for the answer (I hope it wasn't an offensive question, I was truly just curious)

 

[drstevej]

thanks for the answer (I hope it wasn't an offensive question, I was truly just curious)

No problem. Not offensive.

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

This is an interesting topic, I haven't read the book though, and I seriously doubt I could get my hubby to pick it up! lol, he thinks a lot of 'christian' books are just fluff and that people should pick up their bible instead...

That said, I think that in our society gender roles are severely twisted, I hate the sitcom 'man' who is portrayed as basically dumb, like a big child, and the heroine wife who is smarter and who sweeps in and saves the family. I really think that men are just patronized and degraded into a mould that we think we want.

I use the word twist purposely, because there are lots of 'manly' things which could be comparable to 'childish' things, but that does not make a man a child.

My family does not run that way, my husband would simply not put up with that, and he has been very unfairly judged because he won't fall into this line of thinking...

 

[Apollo Celestio]

If it's useful, it's useful. I hope all who read it come to a greater understanding of the issue. I'm not sure I'll ever read it, as I'm not your typical macho guy who cares about something like manhood, though still behaving much like a man would. (Other than my lack of certain desires.) We're not of this world, right? We should be who we are in God, and live by his guidance and not care too much about what the world wants from us, whether to be a bread-winner or a stay at home mom.

 

[MrJim]

If it's useful, it's useful. I hope all who read it come to a greater understanding of the issue. I'm not sure I'll ever read it, as I'm not your typical macho guy who cares about something like manhood, though still behaving much like a man would. (Other than my lack of certain desires.) We're not of this world, right? We should be who we are in God, and live by his guidance and not care too much about what the world wants from us, whether to be a bread-winner or a stay at home mom.

martial art dudes are always macho...

 

[Sketcher]

That said, I think that in our society gender roles are severely twisted, I hate the sitcom 'man' who is portrayed as basically dumb, like a big child, and the heroine wife who is smarter and who sweeps in and saves the family. I really think that men are just patronized and degraded into a mould that we think we want.

So do I. Now, part of this happens because men are funnier than women, and where you're going to have a good, strong man in charge of the family, you won't have a family that's entertaining enough for a sitcom. But that agenda is in there too, and it's naked. I don't watch sitcoms anymore.

 

[edie19]

So do I. Now, part of this happens because men are funnier than women, and where you're going to have a good, strong man in charge of the family, you won't have a family that's entertaining enough for a sitcom. But that agenda is in there too, and it's naked. I don't watch sitcoms anymore.

I don't either - because they're all so skewed. Don't think I have since The Cosby Show.

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

So do I. Now, part of this happens because men are funnier than women, and where you're going to have a good, strong man in charge of the family, you won't have a family that's entertaining enough for a sitcom. But that agenda is in there too, and it's naked. I don't watch sitcoms anymore.

I agree, with all the PC culture the white male is the only person who can be made fun of safely so I'm sure that is a part of it... I'm sure it's also partly some men who don't want to deal with the responsibility of standing up and leading a family, along with the independent woman who wants to answer to no-one... That's not my family and it sounds like a mess to me...

 

[GreenMunchkin]

So do I. Now, part of this happens because men are funnier than women, and where you're going to have a good, strong man in charge of the family, you won't have a family that's entertaining enough for a sitcom. But that agenda is in there too, and it's naked. I don't watch sitcoms anymore.

The bit I bolded - in what way? I don't understand the correlation. Maybe am misunderstanding, but I don't think a family that's led by a strong man is necessarily going to be, like, joyless.

 

[Nadiine]

I don't either - because they're all so skewed. Don't think I have since The Cosby Show.

I agree, with all the PC culture the white male is the only person who can be made fun of safely so I'm sure that is a part of it... I'm sure it's also partly some men who don't want to deal with the responsibility of standing up and leading a family, along with the independent woman who wants to answer to no-one... That's not my family and it sounds like a mess to me...

Yep
& same here, I don't watch any sit coms &
haven't since about the 2nd season of Friends. (ages).

 

[intricatic]

I only seem to watch House M.D. anymore. I mean, c'mon. House is funny and he's not afraid to make fun of people for any and every possible thing. He's like an equal-opportunity insult factory.

 

[Sketcher]

The bit I bolded - in what way? I don't understand the correlation. Maybe am misunderstanding, but I don't think a family that's led by a strong man is necessarily going to be, like, joyless.

Not joyless, but joy doesn't sell, at least as comedy. Comedy is all about the cheap laugh, line after line. Joy is more like the heartwarming stuff that people watch at Christmastime. Laughing at Family Guy and laughing because the Lord came through for you or someone else are different. The latter is so rare, I don't think that we really know how to laugh at it.

 

[Simon_Templar]

stereotypes exist for a reason. Generalities exist for a reason. That reason being, they are true in the majority of instances.

The book you are talking about is dealing in generalities, which will probably be true in the majority of instances. However, another generality is that generalities have exceptions. In otherwords, they may be true in most cases, but usually they aren't true in all cases.

However, I do believe that there are set gender roles that were established by God and that people are designed (even if they don't feel it or realize it) to fulfill those roles.

The manly characteristics in that book describe me very well. I've been like that since I was a kid, I've always wanted to be that.
Not every one does.

However, another reality is that what is best for people is not determined by what they desire or what they think they desire. A lot of human desires run contrary to what God has destined us for.

For example, I have a good friend who in some ways is exactly like me, in other ways he has tried to be exactly the opposite of me (not for the sake of being opposite but because it was what he wanted to be).
I've always wanted to rescue the damsel in distress and get married to the princess etc. I've always identified with the hero, the good guy, etc.
He on the other hand always cheered for the villain and wanted to be the villain. I know him well, and for a long time. He is really a very nice and even kind caring guy. Yet his image of himself that he promoted and desired was that he didn't care about anyone, only served his own interests. For a long time he insisted that he never wanted to get married, and never wanted kids specifically because he was too selfish for that etc.
Yet as he has gotten older and lived more.. he has begun to change. In fact in the last year on a few of those things he has done a complete 180. The reality is his desires not only didn't match up with what was best for him.. what he thought he desired wasn't truly what he really wanted. He has begun to discover that as he got what he desired and found out that he wanted something else.

as to gender roles in the Church being influenced by the world... I think it is more true of women than of men. Women's gender roles in the Church have been completely re-invented based on modern, western, society.

For men, the whole "nice Christian guy in the sweater-vest" is often a sickeningly real stereotype. However, I don't think that comes from the world. I know almost no guys in the world who are like that.
That one, I think, was invented by the Church. I think the modern western Church got into a mode where it adopted a passive and feminized view of men and manhood. This was partially due, I think, to the touchy feely and very feminine way that the Church presented 'relationship with Jesus'.

Along with that, hand in hand, the Church spent a lot of effort portraying much of the fellowship of men as being sinful. When I say that I'm thinking of the typical things that men do to bond and enjoy friends... You can't go to the pub and have a beer with the guys, you can't get loud and rowdy over a sporting event, you can't play rude jokes on each other, you can't laugh and talk freely.

Many of the Christian guys I know who are more from that mold have few or no close guy friends and they have little or no social outlet with other guys.

Most of the Christian guys I know who do have good friendships with other guys and are active with other guys are the ones who are more "rough" around the edges.

In my opinion there is a certain amount of unreality about the image of 'men' that has been propagated by Churches, and this is one of the reasons that in general men attend Church at a much lower rate than women do.

 

[BlackSabb]

That's made it sound all controversial, and it's really not, but I can't think of a way to phrase it

But. Am reading a book called Wild At Heart and I guess it's primarily written for Christian men, but am finding it fascinating, too.

In it, the writer says that men and women have 3 fundamental needs/desires each:

Men need a battle to fight (that there is something inherently fierce about a man, not necessarily violent, but something of the warrior), an adventure to live (ie, exploring, being in the mountains, even fishing! Just time in the wild, and the open) and a beauty to rescue. Women, inversely, want to be fought for; they want to be caught up in an adventure, and they want their beauty to be recognised and unveiled.

Do you think that's true?

He also says that the world somehow dictates what Christian men and women should be. He says men are forced to be "the nice Christian guy" as opposed to the deeply spiritual, wilderness, rugged guy, which makes many Christian men, almost, bored. Women, meanwhile, are made to feel like if we're not super independent and tough, we're failures, and it kills our hearts.

So, do you feel that way, at all? Do you agree with him?

Ugh!!! What a load of triped up nonsense. This is funny, but I heard Brian Houston say exactly the same thing to a group of men at a men's conference (not in person-on a tape that I borrowed). Men are to be "wild" and "rugged" and "rescue a damstrel in distress".

*stick fingers down throat*

What garbage. Men and women don't inherently fit into these man made stereotypes and gender roles.

I know plenty of guys that would rather read a book than go hiking. I know plenty of women that would rather wear jeans than a dress-and does not want a man rescuing her. THe whole thing is man made nonsense. It is neither Biblical nor biological truth.

I've known women that can out drink many men, and I've known men that take care of themselves better than men-and not gay men either. The fact is, it's horses for courses.

Even for myself, I fit the "manly" mould for some things, and fit the "feminine" mould for others. I love fast cars, have done some shooting, have a huge interest in WW2 and am generally handy around the house. But I'm not a sports fan and I love cats, rather than dogs which most men do.

 

[Rhamiel]

Men need a battle to fight (that there is something inherently fierce about a man, not necessarily violent, but something of the warrior), an adventure to live (ie, exploring, being in the mountains, even fishing! Just time in the wild, and the open) and a beauty to rescue. Women, inversely, want to be fought for; they want to be caught up in an adventure, and they want their beauty to be recognised and unveiled.

interesting, I would agree with this in theory, it is the masculine ideal, look at life as a story, you need some kinda conflict to drive the plot (fighting) the adventure is mans desire for the transendant, something larger then them, and all of us are seaking beauty, the thing worth fighting for. I really like how he describes it.

the other stuff about rugged men and nature hikes... not my cup of tea
tea is my cup of tea, love the stuff, and quit nights watching movies, and exotic food.
You can live a life with those three ideals and not fall into the macho stereotype.
I am very oldfashioned and can be a very formal with people I do not know, this leval of politeness and deferance to others is sometimes mistaken for me being gay... yeah not fun. But I take value in the old ways.
I think men would gain more from reading medieval history about the code of chivalry then they would from this guys book, though i did like his three ideals for men, i also like his three ideals for ladies, but the "being caught up in an adventure" part was a little confusing, what does that mean?

 

[Nadiine]

Not joyless, but joy doesn't sell, at least as comedy. Comedy is all about the cheap laugh, line after line. Joy is more like the heartwarming stuff that people watch at Christmastime. Laughing at Family Guy and laughing because the Lord came through for you or someone else are different. The latter is so rare, I don't think that we really know how to laugh at it.

Exactly - and thats what gets so sickening after awhile -
you start seeing the set up for every joke they're going to make & it's like a pattern;
"ha ha ha. serious content, joke. hahaha. content, joke. ha ha ha" LOL
& most of the humor is negative at someone elses expense - put downs...

Sure it can be funny, just that it's almost robotic and no doubt has done harm in some ways over the years.

In my high school drama class we were taught that there's no story/plot without conflict. It's the conflict that sells and you can even see that on CF. A thread goes along normally like usual & people don't pay much attn.
Get a hot thread with a dispute going on & watch the thread turn into grand central station all of a sudden.
Conflict brings people in & interests them - all of them incl. Christians.

That's what I think is part of it - the 'recipe' for good entertainment - happyiness bores people for some reason.

 

[Nadiine]

In my earlier post I deleted (didn't have time to form it all out)
I just said that it was based on some gender generalities & applied
to Christianity.

I think they're stereotypes but lots of people don't fit those molds - esp. in how he applies them to Christianity.

So I think it's basically useless observation using gender stereotyping.
Even tho I believe stereotyping is often accurate -as much as people hate admitting it (but not in all cases of course).

& in the last paragraph about independence w/ Christian women - I'm not like that
at all either. I much prefer the 'helpless deer in the woods' gimmick - I think
men prefer that more too - then again, not all do.