Gender roles and stereotypes: Which are garbage, which are true?

[Gadarene]

Again I point out the obvious biological reasons, mother's nurse fathers don't, and if there are several children it would be problematic for the father to stay at home historically and the mother to work. Unmarried women, older widows, women without children, and women with older children could go out (and some did) and work. Some times historical generalizations had some merit to them, like it or not.

Oh, biological reasons certainly explain how we got to where we are now, but now that we are aware of them and are modifying that biology, there is little reason to insist on maintaining them.

 

[Solomonf1776]



Oh, biological reasons certainly explain how we got to where we are now, but now that we are aware of them and are modifying that biology, there is little reason to insist on maintaining them.

Did I once say that is how things are supposed to be today? People are individuals capable of making their own choices in life. And not have it forced down their throat like a termly ill hospital patient has to have a feeding tube.

I would though point out that quite a few women feel those decisions are being forced upon them by those who want to force change on them and not let them choose the traditional path. Every time a stay at home mom is told she hasn't done anything it is offensive to her any all stay at home mothers.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I would also point out there is more to gender then what toys they play with, its been shown that children will gravitate to those gender specific things when given a choice with no input or reinforcement from others.

There is truth to the gravitation statement. A story has been told of parents who made it a specific point to gender-flip their children's Christmas presents that year. They gave their son a doll and their daughter a toy truck. Later that day they walked into the room to see their son scooting the doll across the floor making "vroom" noises, while their daughter held the truck in her arms, rocking it and cooing, "Aw, baby." No less staunch a feminist than Letty Cottin Pogrebin, co-founder of Ms. Magazine, told that story. She talked about it in her book "Growing Up Free," and also mentioned it on a television talk show. But when asked, she would NOT concede even the slightest possibility that there could be something innate in the children that led them to their choices. I wonder how she explains it then, because she never did offer a theory about it.

I question the veracity of that story. She didn't say how old the children were, but I've got a four-year-old grandson and a two-year-old granddaughter, and I can't see it happening with them. It seems to me even very small children will realize that a doll and a truck are two different things with two different purposes. I doubt a child of normal intelligence would ever mistake one for the other. If they wanted to play the specific way they did, I would think most children in that situation would simply trade.

Now, I myself am a strange case. (Which is usual. ) At birth, I was given what I considered my entire childhood to be a boy's name. Although in this country it is actually more common for females, it is solidly a male name in Belgium, Sweden, France, and Norway, and slightly more male than female in Great Britain, Canada, and Australia. I have a much harder time trying to think of female celebrities who have that name, than I do male celebrities. As an adult, I changed my name to one that, it turns out, gets mispronounced more often than not, but the trade-off is that nobody ever, based on my name alone, mistakes me for a man. I like it better that way. There are several men at our church, including our pastor, with names that sound a bit girly to modern ears, and they feel similarly. I have come to just not believe in giving any child an ambiguous name. Don't make them ever have to go through that "Are you a boy or a girl?" questioning, that I found so embarrassing.

It wasn't only my name. My parents also made me keep my hair short when I wanted it long, and wear jeans and t-shirts when I would have chosen dresses. They pushed me to get out and run, climb trees, and ride bicycles when I preferred to play with dolls and domestic toys. As I got older, it was a struggle to be allowed to do such things as shave my legs and underarms, tweeze out my obvious mustache and unibrow, and wear makeup, jewelry, cologne, and nail polish. One might think my parents actually wanted a boy instead of a girl, but I had two brothers, so I couldn't figure out why they were trying to make another boy out of me. My best guess is that, since my upbringing encompassed the late 1960's to the early 1980's, it was the thick of that "Ms." era, and my parents decided I would be "equal" to my brothers whether I wanted to be or not! Yes, here again I have to point out that "equal" does not mean "identical."

This said, if a girl wants to keep her hair short, wear jeans, play with toy trucks, and call herself Bobbie if her name is Barbara, I can't think of a good reason she shouldn't be allowed to.

 

[Forest Wolf]

My remarks did not make any statement that one gender was more inclined to inflict cruelty than the other.

My remarks addressed the traditional gender roles that are reiterated at a generational basis for the sexes. While of course there are crossovers from time to time, the template remains consistent for the most part.

I am sorry to read of your relationship with your mother.



Gender has nothing to do with the level of cruelty one can inflect, I personally know that from my mother and the way she treated me, the fact that men are on top when it comes to atrocities doesn’t mean that women if put in the same position could be just as cruel and sadistic. Many don’t even need to be in that position to do those things. From mothers who will try to off the competition of their children to women who kill for pleasure it doesn’t matter. Villains like Elizabeth Báthory the blood countess & Agrippina the Younger mother of Nero, and leaders like Queen Elizabeth, Catherine the Great, and Joan of Arc. All humans, male and female are flawed and are equally capable of right and wrong.

I would also point out there is more to gender then what toys they play with, its been shown that children will gravitate to those gender specific things when given a choice with no input or reinforcement from others.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I forgot to add the following tidbits to the above.

1.) Of the four siblings, my sister was born last after myself and the two brothers. It is interesting to note that my parents gave her a *very* feminine name, and then let her wear dresses and have long hair all she wanted. Nor do I ever remember them balking at her grooming and making herself up. Maybe they learned from big sister's experience?

2.) Nowadays, I make sure my clothing style is definitely female, and my hair reaches to my tailbone. I've heard a lot of people squawk about how us "older" women should not have long hair anymore, but I refuse to cut it short. I went through enough of that.

 

[Solomonf1776]



My remarks did not make any statement that one gender was more inclined to inflict cruelty than the other.

My remarks addressed the traditional gender roles that are reiterated at a generational basis for the sexes. While of course there are crossovers from time to time, the template remains consistent for the most part.

Sorry, I might have come off a wee bit too much on that, the lines;

At this stage of the human species gradation from cave dwellers unto 21st century global conflict techno-reality, we are allowed to stand in witness to what the gender role hard wire programming has made of the world.

Men thinking themselves superior have caused the world to be what we see, while the women have accepted their seat as watcher of what's evolved under that Patriarchal dominance.

They kind of stuck out to me as that, I’ve read a few things with people declaring that if women ran the world their wouldn’t be conflict that were similar to those lines. After researching real life people for traits for both heros and villains for my stories I found there is much difference in that area when given the chance.

I am sorry to read of your relationship with your mother.

And thank you.

P.S. I have to mention I forgot to add Margret Thatcher to last last post as one of those great women leaders.

 

[Forest Wolf]



Sorry, I might have come off a wee bit too much on that, the lines;

Not a problem.

They kind of stuck out to me as that, I’ve read a few things with people declaring that if women ran the world their wouldn’t be conflict that were similar to those lines. After researching real life people for traits for both heros and villains for my stories I found there is much difference in that area when given the chance.

I've read as much also. There's a popular pagan feminist writing that states as much. The author being a disciple of another feminist Dianic pagan who claims her mother is a product of parthenogenesis, as is she herself.

Women who tend to follow the teachings of anyone who avows such nonsense as that tend to be gullible from the outset and are therefore exploited by such nefarious individuals who exploit the concept of woman empowerment and liberation to their own ends.

And thank you.

P.S. I have to mention I forgot to add Margret Thatcher to last last post as one of those great women leaders.

I would agree with you on that nomination.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

If you dont love life, do you flee from existence and truth of being human. Do you then really exist in the fullest cognitive sense or are you a flight from self and world. Anyway perhaps ten generations of "manning up" lead to:


The Black Eyed Peas - Where Is The Love? - YouTube

I must be a gender role pragmatist, and anti essentialist. There is little or no sex specific psychology that we must adhere to, but flexibility is the best strategy depending on specific needs.

 

[Cearbhall]

Again I point out the obvious biological reasons, mother's nurse fathers don't, and if there are several children it would be problematic for the father to stay at home historically and the mother to work.

Yes, but that doesn't even begin to cover the breadth of our society's gender roles, and nor is it relevant to modern women who have access to formula and breast pumps.

 

[Solomonf1776]

Yes, but that doesn't even begin to cover the breadth of our society's gender roles, and nor is it relevant to modern women who have access to formula and breast pumps.

See my response to a somewhat similar response in post #43 in this thread.

 

[Cearbhall]

See my response to a somewhat similar response in post #43 in this thread.

I suppose we're in agreement, then.