Gender equality is an asinine concept.

[Athene]

You are using very complex terms I'm not familiar with. I'm pointing out men and women are different in how their brains are wired and how their physiology is made up. Those differences make them different by definition. To treat them the same despite such obvious differences seems silly to me.

Actually AL you might be on to something quite profound here, instead of gender equality we should have gender liberation - the freedom to just be ourselves and to not expect people to conform to silly stereotypes for the sake of conforming to them.

 

[TheDag]

Not necessarily. That would be a hasty generalization -- to use one case and generalize from there. If they did it a few more times, well, then, you'd be justified in thinking that aborigines are abusive.

See I guess you didn't read my entire post. In a bit you did not quote it mentioned there were many aborigines over a four year period. So according to you I would be justified in believing the worst about aborigines. However I contend that it is best to judge people for themselves. That is why when I went to tafe I did not say previous aborigines were abusive towards me so these guys will most likely as well. I can assure you if I went in with that view then they would have picked up on it and not associated with me (which would be my loss) even if I did give them time to prove the stereotype doesn't fit.

 

[WorldIsMine]

So are you arguing that because no two people are the same then women shouldn't have the right to vote and that they shouldn't have legal rights?

I don't believe in rights. That sort of argument doesn't interest me, it's like arguing whether leprachauns are five feet tall or two feet tall. Leprechauns are no feet tall, because they are not real.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Actually AL you might be on to something quite profound here, instead of gender equality we should have gender liberation - the freedom to just be ourselves and to not expect people to conform to silly stereotypes for the sake of conforming to them.

The problem with that is that people do conform to stereotypes whether we want them to or not.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Don't see what this has to do with masculine and feminine. The reason we have feminine men and masculine women is because some people for some reason (hopefully they know) put different behaviours into different categories. If I had a dollar everytime I've heard someone say a person must be gay because they like something in particular I ould be a very rich person indeed.

If I had a dollar for everytime I pointed out a gay person based on their voice and body language I'd be a rich man. People tend to act in ways which betray who they are. Gang bangers do it, repressed middle aged white men do it, and believe it or not gay men do it too.

edit:

I met a bi woman who told me about how to tell gay men from straight men. She was the head of the college gay/lesbian club. I won't go into it more than that. Other than to say she was/is? Wiccan.

 

[mpok1519]

I'm pretty sure if you got only a dollar from that you'd have a hundred or so; not too rich.

 

[TheDag]

I don't believe in rights. That sort of argument doesn't interest me, it's like arguing whether leprachauns are five feet tall or two feet tall. Leprechauns are no feet tall, because they are not real.

I'm yet to meet a single person who truly does not believe in rights. It is a pity I don't live anywhere near you or i could test it out to see if you believe in rights or not.

 

[TheDag]

If I had a dollar for everytime I pointed out a gay person based on their voice and body language I'd be a rich man. People tend to act in ways which betray who they are. Gang bangers do it, repressed middle aged white men do it, and believe it or not gay men do it too.

edit:

I met a bi woman who told me about how to tell gay men from straight men. She was the head of the college gay/lesbian club. I won't go into it more than that. Other than to say she was/is? Wiccan.

Firstly not all gay guys change the way they talk and secondly i guarentee that you would pick one of my friends as being gay even though he isn't. So your system isn't fool proof.

 

[cantata]

If I had a dollar for everytime I pointed out a gay person based on their voice and body language I'd be a rich man.

What about all the masculine gay men and feminine lesbians that you fail to identify?

 

[SallyNow]

What about all the masculine gay men and feminine lesbians that you fail to identify?

Masculine gay men are easy to identify because they are all sailors, cops, construction workers, or cowboys in really tight pants.

Feminine lesbians wear shirts that proclaim such things as, "Wimmin rule" and "Wimmin rule, men drool". When in business attire they wear only pantsuits in dowdy neutrals, never colours or in navy blue or black.

*rolls eyes*

 

[cantata]

Masculine gay men are easy to identify because they are all sailors, cops, construction workers, or cowboys in really tight pants.

Feminine lesbians wear shirts that proclaim such things as, "Wimmin rule" and "Wimmin rule, men drool". When in business attire they wear only pantsuits in dowdy neutrals, never colours or in navy blue or black.

*rolls eyes*

Your wisdom is boundless, Sally

 

[Athene]

The problem with that is that people do conform to stereotypes whether we want them to or not.

Let's look at the male/female stereotypes presented to us by the media and then you tell me if you really believe men and women conform to them.

Female - nagging, money draining, shops continually, irritating, bossy, shallow, insincere, vapid.

Male - sex obsessed, stupid, incapable of performing simple tasks without a female telling him what to do, incredibly immature brats who are ruled by their sex drives.

You're a man, I'm not, tell me is it really the ultimate goal of a real man to revel in his own stupidity, to reject cultural and intellectual pursuits and instead spend life slumped in front of the TV, beer in one hand, tv remote in the other watching sports or pornography while his wife cooks him a manly meal of fried red meat, no vegetables of course unless it's potato- vegetables are for women and effeminate men - the same men who like poetry and opera.

 

[TheDag]

Let's look at the male/female stereotypes presented to us by the media and then you tell me if you really believe men and women conform to them.

Female - nagging, money draining, shops continually, irritating, bossy, shallow, insincere, vapid.

My wife occasionly nags which I think is a good thing because sometimes I need a kick up the backside to make sure I do certain important tasks. For other things she doesn't nag even though I know my not doing them annoys her. She can be bossy but only does so in situations where someone needs to take charge which isn't really being bossy.

Male - sex obsessed, stupid, incapable of performing simple tasks without a female telling him what to do, incredibly immature brats who are ruled by their sex drives.

doesn't describe me at all. That's right it is perfectly ok for a guy not to be sex crazed. It is the media portrayel that tells guys they have to be that way. Guys grow up thinking that and then want to blame women for their lack of self-control!

 

[wanderingone]

The problem with that is that people do conform to stereotypes whether we want them to or not.

people only conform to stereotypes if we have the boxes labeled and ready to drop them into.

It only matters if we treat people based on our stereotypes as opposed to just treating them as people who aren't responsible to fit my expectations.

 

[WorldIsMine]

I'm yet to meet a single person who truly does not believe in rights. It is a pity I don't live anywhere near you or i could test it out to see if you believe in rights or not.

I assure you I do not, by any standard formulation of 'rights'. I do, however, believe in protecting my own interests. Because they are my interests.

 

[PetersKeys]

Let's look at the male/female stereotypes presented to us by the media and then you tell me if you really believe men and women conform to them.

Female - nagging, money draining, shops continually, irritating, bossy, shallow, insincere, vapid.

Male - sex obsessed, stupid, incapable of performing simple tasks without a female telling him what to do, incredibly immature brats who are ruled by their sex drives.

You're a man, I'm not, tell me is it really the ultimate goal of a real man to revel in his own stupidity, to reject cultural and intellectual pursuits and instead spend life slumped in front of the TV, beer in one hand, tv remote in the other watching sports or pornography while his wife cooks him a manly meal of fried red meat, no vegetables of course unless it's potato- vegetables are for women and effeminate men - the same men who like poetry and opera.

If you look at a good number of the population what you say is true. A good number of women are vain and shallow, and alot of men are sex crazed and jerks. A good number of women(espesially young women) prefer to be with guys who are jerks too(nice guys finish last)

A decent woman and man is hard to find in society and it take alot of hard work. It took me years to find a nice woman who had decent morals and principles. One of the great ruiners of women today is feminism because it looks down on the housewife and gives women ideals that are harmful for future marriage. Many women talk about cooking for their husband as if it is murder.. the question is, why? what makes supporting your husband so horrible? a loving wife should be happy to support and cook for her husband, if she dosen't, then she has issues and probably has been poluted by feminist ideals. Many husbands are busting their chops at work to support their family and children and many women today just don't respect that anymore.

A really wonderful book is called "The Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage" by Dr. Laura Schlessinger

She has three basic rules for marriage:

* treat your spouse as if you loved them with your last breath- no matter how you might feel at that moment.

* think hard everyday on how you can make their life worth living.

* be the kind of person you would want to love, hug, come home to, and sacrifice for.

 

[Chajara]

Hate to break it to you, PetersKeys, but I bust my hiney at work too, and I'm a woman. I have to in order to afford to buy the food that I cook for my man. Granted, once we have children I insist on at least dropping to part time, and I'll only work at all if we have a really good friend or family who can care for the baby while I pull in the extra cash. If not, then I'm not shipping my child off to daycare 40 hours a week. I don't care if my husband has to give up a few games here and there or if I have to give up on experimenting with new dishes (I like to cook).

Yes, that's right! I, a feminist, like to cook, and insist on being an actual mother to my child. I also like to raise my own veggies and would like to raise my own meat some day as well. I'm also ridiculously maternal. I don't spend all our money on dumb stuff, and I don't nag my boyfriend unless it's something absolutely vital and he's really just not getting it (I got a bit snappy, for example, when we hadn't gone grocery shopping together for two months and he was just letting me bring what I could carry home on the bus that whole time instead of driving a few blocks down so we could actually load up the trunk. I still asked him nicely for TWO WEEKS before getting angry).

I say I'm a feminist because I think it's okay for a woman to marry a man who'd rather stay home with the kids, and it's okay for a couple to decide on a career for themselves instead of a family. As long as they're contributing /something/ to society, I don't care. Not everyone has to contribute children. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Just because I would not be happy with a business man who wanted no children and who thought living on a farm would be disgusting doesn't mean every woman would. I got lucky and found a man who wants a family and who works hard so that we can eventually raise one. But most of the girls at work think I'm absolutely crazy for settling down this early, and they find it utterly bizarre that we're so darn happy together even though we're not climbing the corporate ladder and living an extravagant life that consists of going out with 30 friends 3 times a week. Gender roles are stupid, because despite a few similarities many people belonging to the same gender take vastly different paths in life, and are perfectly happy doing so.

People are different. Don't listen to what the media and stupid magazines like Cosmopolitan tell you. They give some of the worst advice I've ever read.

 

[PetersKeys]

Hate to break it to you, PetersKeys, but I bust my hiney at work too, and I'm a woman. I have to in order to afford to buy the food that I cook for my man. Granted, once we have children I insist on at least dropping to part time, and I'll only work at all if we have a really good friend or family who can care for the baby while I pull in the extra cash. If not, then I'm not shipping my child off to daycare 40 hours a week. I don't care if my husband has to give up a few games here and there or if I have to give up on experimenting with new dishes (I like to cook).

Yes, that's right! I, a feminist, like to cook, and insist on being an actual mother to my child. I also like to raise my own veggies and would like to raise my own meat some day as well. I'm also ridiculously maternal. I don't spend all our money on dumb stuff, and I don't nag my boyfriend unless it's something absolutely vital and he's really just not getting it (I got a bit snappy, for example, when we hadn't gone grocery shopping together for two months and he was just letting me bring what I could carry home on the bus that whole time instead of driving a few blocks down so we could actually load up the trunk. I still asked him nicely for TWO WEEKS before getting angry).

I say I'm a feminist because I think it's okay for a woman to marry a man who'd rather stay home with the kids, and it's okay for a couple to decide on a career for themselves instead of a family. As long as they're contributing /something/ to society, I don't care. Not everyone has to contribute children. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Just because I would not be happy with a business man who wanted no children and who thought living on a farm would be disgusting doesn't mean every woman would. I got lucky and found a man who wants a family and who works hard so that we can eventually raise one. But most of the girls at work think I'm absolutely crazy for settling down this early, and they find it utterly bizarre that we're so darn happy together even though we're not climbing the corporate ladder and living an extravagant life that consists of going out with 30 friends 3 times a week. Gender roles are stupid, because despite a few similarities many people belonging to the same gender take vastly different paths in life, and are perfectly happy doing so.

People are different. Don't listen to what the media and stupid magazines like Cosmopolitan tell you. They give some of the worst advice I've ever read.

Chajara, I respect your support of your husband and family. It sounds like you have good family values as a wife. Most feminists would look down on you for what you do. But like you said, your relationship is succesfull and you have retained your maternal instinct. Most married women I know who are feminists would not do what you do.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Let's look at the male/female stereotypes presented to us by the media and then you tell me if you really believe men and women conform to them.

Media stereotypes are not accurate. The easiest way to illustrate my point is to suggest you go talk to someone who has sold furniture or been a waitress for longer than 5 years. Ask them about how different people behave and they will generally give you the same answer as another person in the field who they have never met, go across town to their competitor and ask the same question. I work in retail at a different store almost every day and have run into this as people always talk about similar topics and I listen more than I talk at work. Men, women, different races. The stereotypes are not right all the time but they are around 75 to 80% of the time. Its sort of like the bell curve, there are extremes on either side of the norm.

 

[Autumnleaf]

people only conform to stereotypes if we have the boxes labeled and ready to drop them into.

It only matters if we treat people based on our stereotypes as opposed to just treating them as people who aren't responsible to fit my expectations.

So if you are walking down a dark alley in the bad part of town at night and a gang of minority youths start approaching you, then you won't think anything of it? That is just one situation of many that happen. From my personal experience police are more likely to pull people over in the 'bad' part of town for stupid reasons. One cop pulled me over after work one night on my way home, just to see if everything was all right. I hadn't broken any traffic laws or anything, he was just "concerned". I thought this was weird until I mentioned it at work and they said it happened all the time in that part of town. If it really goes on is it a stereotype to say so?