gays

[ANN2626]

what are views on gays and should they be accepted into christianity and into churches..when they arent willing to change ?

 

[Sketcher]

Would you accept a murderer or a theif or a rapist into your church if he was not willing to change? How about a patholigocal liar?

If someone is repentant, they will be willing to change. God knows this. In the meantime, keep praying for them that God would show them that this needs to change, and He would be happy to help them do that. He is an equal opportunity forgiver.

 

[Christ's Minister]

There is a big difference between being accepted in churches and given church membership or of course a leadership position of any sort.People will not become Christians unless they are accepted by other Christians and welcomed to their churches.There is a big difference between accepting someone as a child of God and approving of any sinful behavior they engage in.

Most homosexuals believe the popular myth that they were born with a homosexual mindset and that they can not change.Most homosexuals would change their behavior if they thought it possible,because contrary to being "gay",the majority are seriously depressed.The suicide rate among homosexuals is astonishing.Most ministers fail to address the homosexual problem properly.Many choose to not discuss it all,a huge mistake because the homosexual community is increasingly being influenced by satanic beliefs.

Before national "hate speech" laws are passed,banning the criticism of homosexuality,it is essential that ministers freely explain God's position on homosexuality,the childhood family environment that creates the problem and the spiritual ways to recover from the deviation.

 

[DanMan]

Most homosexuals believe the popular myth that they were born with a homosexual mindset and that they can not change.

I agree. It's not true that these people are just born this way. but more importantly, it IS possible for them to change. I personally met a guy on a Christian forum who was struggling with homosexuality. And he was seeking desperately for God in his life. He knew it was wrong. This was about a year ago. And around a month ago, he accepted Jesus Christ into his heart. He's beginning to break his connections from previous homosexual relationships and that general crowd, because it's not healthy for him and tempting. He wrote an entire email about his desire to allow GOD to change him. God changed Saul's life, and also is changing this guy's life. And for those that are willing, God can change even the homosexuals.

 

[Johnnz]

We must distinguish bewteen crusading, promiscous gay people, people who are gay through previous experience of sexual abuse, and some who seem to have a natural, inborn preference for the same sex. Each group must be regarded and treated separately. The last group may often require special acceptance and support, as an inborn factor cannot easily be changed.

John
NZ

 

[JVD]

We must distinguish bewteen crusading, promiscous gay people, people who are gay through previous experience of sexual abuse, and some who seem to have a natural, inborn preference for the same sex. Each group must be regarded and treated separately. The last group may often require special acceptance and support, as an inborn factor cannot easily be changed.

John
NZ

John,,,you're the first person I've come across that I think I agree with on this issue.

I believe that there are a very few people born with a preference for the same sex. I believe I know a couple of those people. There is at least one person like that in our church. I haven't really talked much about it to him, but he obviously has effeminate characteristics. However, he is a Godly man, and does not practice homosexual sex...or any sex for that matter. I believe that this is an example of what can be done when a person puts his focus on God rather than on his own desires.

 

[Rafael]

God gives grace to all who humble themselves before Him and ask for forgiveness and repentance of sins, but if they are proud and seek to justify themselves before Him with argument and the ways of man, then He will resist them. The Church is not supposed to allow blatant display of rebellion towards God, but each person comes to God with their own heart towards Him and only they and God knows what goes on behind closed doors. So it is up to each individual what they make of their relationship with God - whether it is a true one or one they dream up and use to justify their own flesh. The Bible says that we are to deny self and die to the old life, receiving the new life from Him and then walking in that new life as new creatures in Christ. We are all equal in opportunity - to obey or disobey His Word to put away the flesh and its deeds that lead to death or live the life of the spirit which leads to eternal life with God.

Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ga 5:16 So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves.
Ga 5:17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict.

 

[bliz]

what are views on gays and should they be accepted into christianity and into churches..when they arent willing to change ?

First, are you talking about someone who is homosexual, or someone who commits homoexual acts? There are cellibate homosexuals just like there are celibate hetrosexuals. I see no Biblical reason whatsoever why a celibate homosexual should not be welcome into the church and any leadership positions for which they have been gifted and called.

By "change" do you mean to cease being a homsexual, or to stop acting on their homosexual desires? While many homosexuals have ended up that way becasue of experiences in their life or choices they have made and can change, not all can. All can stop participaing in homosexual activities.

Now then, about other sinners... Does the church welcome those who lust? Those who gossip? Those who cheat? Those who have impure thoughts? Unless you go to an extreamly unusual church, your church is full of people who commit these sins. Are they expected to clean up their acts before we welcome them in? When was the last time you saw someone expelled from the fellowship of the Body of Christ becasue of gossip?

As I recall, all of us come to Christ as sinners. God decides who gets accepted into Chritianity, not us! I don't see that we have any Biblical grounds to treat homosexual sin and sinners any differently than we treat the sins of other Christians.

 

[forgivenmuch]

lets not forget that sin is sin .. alot of people in these churches are the biggest sinners you have seen. so we should not just label one sin over the other. it does not matter if its homosexual or lieing. it is all sin.

 

[SnoopyDances]

i think there are instances where homosexuality may not be sinful. I believe that there are some people that are born this way, however, even if that is not true, everyone struggles with desire, whether it be heterosexual or homosexual, and the only way that can be carried over into sin is if they act on it and it gets in the way of their relationship with god. there isnt really anythin wrong with homosexuality, those thoughts are perfectly normal. Now, seeing as sex before marriage is sinful, and lesbians and gays really cant get married in many instances, that can prove to be difficult Anyway, sin is sin, regardless of what type, and anyone who wants to experience christ should be allowed into the church, regardless of sexual orientation.

 

[630111]

We must distinguish bewteen crusading, promiscous gay people, people who are gay through previous experience of sexual abuse, and some who seem to have a natural, inborn preference for the same sex. Each group must be regarded and treated separately. The last group may often require special acceptance and support, as an inborn factor cannot easily be changed.

John
NZ

While I agree with you in part, there is nothing natural or inborn about preference for the same sex. While there are a multitude of reasons why a person may become attracted to someone of the same sex, there is NO proof that homosexuality is innate. Also, no proof exists that homosexuality is immutable.

 

[xenia]

Mod Hat on:

This thread has been moved here from the Christian Advice forum.

/Mod Hat off.

 

[Volos]

Would you accept a murderer or a theif or a rapist into your church if he was not willing to change? How about a patholigocal liar?

Being homosexual is not comparable to being a rapist or a murder

If someone is repentant, they will be willing to change. God knows this. In the meantime, keep praying for them that God would show them that this needs to change, and He would be happy to help them do that. He is an equal opportunity forgiver.

Change what? People don’t change their sexual orientation. The only choice involved is the choice to be honest.

 

[Volos]

Most homosexuals believe the popular myth that they were born with a homosexual mindset

Can you provide evidence that sexual orientation is not an inborn trait?

and that they can not change.

no evidence exists that individuals can change their sexual orientation. Worse those who attempt to do so suffer serious harm.



A study of 150 men who had attempted to change theirier sexual orientation were interviewed by Drs. Michael Schroeder Ariel Shidlo. They published their findings in

“Ethical Issues in Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies: An Empirical Study of Consumers” published in “Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical and Research Perspectives” Edited by Ariel Shidlo, PhD

“A significant proportion of reparative therapy patients sustain serious, lasting injuries. Having been misled into thinking that being gay is a mental disorder and something that can be changed if they'll only try hard enough, many people feel doubly flawed when a "cure" eludes them. "Frequently they become very, very depressed," a mental state that in many interviewees triggered such self-destructive behavior as unsafe sex, drug abuse or suicide attempts, Shield reports.

Reparative therapy not only encourages self-hatred but often sours family relationships by spreading the myth that homosexuality results from poor parenting. Some patients suffer spiritually when they cannot do what they're told God requires. And a great many temporarily lose their capacity for real human intimacy. Repressing gay desires creates a void, not a true heterosexual.”

Most homosexuals would change their behavior if they thought it possible,because contrary to being "gay",the majority are seriously depressed.The suicide rate among homosexuals is astonishing.

the suicide rate for gays and lesbians drops to below national average after the age of 18.

One would note that the real culprit is not the sexual orientation of the youths suffering from these problems but rather the society that encourages such a response.

Most ministers fail to address the homosexual problem properly.Many choose to not discuss it all,a huge mistake because the homosexual community is increasingly being influenced by satanic beliefs.

that is bizarre by anyone’s standards.

Before national "hate speech" laws are passed,banning the criticism of homosexuality,it is essential that ministers freely explain God's position on homosexuality,the childhood family environment that creates the problem and the spiritual ways to recover from the deviation.

I would guess you are referring o the law recenltly passed in Canada regarding hate speech. It is obvious you are misinformed about the law. Allow me to enlighten you:

The law in question is Criminal Code of Canada(Sections 318 & 319)

It covers hate speech and protects against hate propagandadirecting hatred against persons the basis of their color, race, religion, ethnic origin and/or sexual orientation.

(Please note that heterosexuals are protected under this law just as homosexuals.)

Hate Propaganda" is defined by the Criminal Code of Canada(Section 318 & 319) as the expression of hatred against or the advocacy of genocide of an identifiable group: specifically people distinguished by their "color, race, religion, ethnic origin and/or sexual orientation.”

Individuals and organizations would be exempt form prosecution if:

The hate speech was expressed during a private conversation.

If, "in good faith, he expressed or attempted to establish by argument an opinion on a religious subject." This would give clergypersons immunity from conviction for a hate-based sermon, for example.

If the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, and if, on reasonable grounds, the person believed them to be true. This would give additional protection for the clergy.

If he/she described material that might generate feelings of hatred for an identifiable group "for the purpose of removal" of that hatred.





So you see Canadians are free to criticize what you like but you cannot (at least in Canada) advocate the murder of specific gays and lesbians or the killing, torture or maiming or imprisonment of gays and lesbians in general.

 

[desi]

Being homosexual is not comparable to being a rapist or a murder


Change what? People don’t change their sexual orientation. The only choice involved is the choice to be honest.

Homosexual activity is desparaged in both the old and new testament for God's reasons. As a practical matter homosexuality has been tied to the rape of boys by male priests and the proliferation of AIDS in US and Europe, these things could be argued amount to rape and murder. While I don't know God's reasons for being against homosexuality I can venture a few guesses.

People are drawn to all types of sin. To say they must sin to be honest is to ignore the obvious; not all things we want to do are good for us or others.

 

[SnoopyDances]

Being homosexual is not comparable to being a rapist or a murder

I very much agree with volos here... how can you compare someones sexual orientation to a CRIME such as rape or murder? homosexuality is definitely not a crime. And you say they CAN change their orientation, I am really not so sure that is an accurate assumption. I am assuming that you are heterosexual.... could you change your sexual orientation? Would you be able to change your lifestyle now to one of homosexuality?

 

[Volos]

Homosexual activity is desparaged in both the old and new testament for God's reasons.

The old testament verses that ‘disparaged’ sit next to verses detailing the eating of shrimp and the shaving of one’s beard as equally horrific things.





There are three passages that may speak on homosexual sex in the New Testament. Two are lists of sins, found in chapter six of Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians and chapter one of his first letter to Timothy. The third is found in the first chapter of Paul’s letter to the Romans.

The two lists are poorly translated in the cases of homosexuality. Three words are found in these passages that are used to relate to homosexual sex: Pornia, Arsenokoitas and Malakoi.

Pornia means pervert. That’s all it really means. It refers to sexual perversion, but makes no statement as to what that perversion is. It is far too general to relate to homosexuality.



Malakoi refers to softness or effeminacy, with implications of perversion. The term is used to refer to a man who is too passionate and emotional, and who acts upon these. It relates to the Grecian concepts of gender identity. The man was not to be emotional in this fashion. Again nothing to do with homosexuality.



Arsenokoitas is a compound word derived from the Greek words for man and bed. While this sounds like a clear reference to homosexuality to our modern ears, there is a problem. The word does not appear at any point prior to Paul’s letters. As far as anyone can tell Paul made up the word himself. Its usage in all other cases either represents something akin to an aggressive sexual predator or, more commonly, a rapist. Again nothing to do with homosexuality.



Romans 1:18-32 is the key to the argument. However, there are a series of problems with the classic interpretation of the passage.

Few people rarely take verses 26-27 in context with the rest of the passage. The lusts spoken of are the result of godlessness and the refusal of the gospel of God. The godless ones are described as being given over to their passions. This loss of control is key and important to the Greeks and Romans Paul is writing to, and was considered a very bad thing. It is important to realize that the passage is not centered on homosexual relations, no matter how you interpret it.

Further the relationships are referred to as being unnatural. The term pushin is the Greek word for natural and refers, in general, to that which is according either to socially accepted morals or to one’s innate nature. The society Paul is writing to, both Roman and Greek, considered homosexual relationships to be quite natural. What would have been considered unnatural to the Romans would specifically have been something where a citizen was ‘on bottom.’ Such a position degrades the citizen’s status and was considered to be a horrible thing.



Three, the shameful lusts that are spoken of are not specifically described. Unlike Leviticus, where they are listed, the passage assumes that its audience knows what is being spoken of. While Paul is a born and trained Jew, familiar with the ceremonial law, he is preaching to newly converted Christians in Rome and Greece. These people, though somewhat familiar with Jewish beliefs, could not have been considered familiar enough to assume that “shameful lusts” meant what is said in Leviticus. Paul is not a man to leave explanations unclear. When necessary, he goes into great detail and repetition to make his point absolutely clear and understood. Therefore, by context it seems he is speaking to the Roman’s understanding of shameful, the subjugation of a citizen for example. Further, pathos (lusts) does not necessitate a sexual connotation.

Four, the fact that we have women doing things with women instead of men and that we have men doing things with men instead of women is clear from what Paul says in verses 26-27. However, Paul does not at any point say what is being done. He lacks the clarity of Leviticus. Any number of things could be occurring, and without a clear indication that the text is specifically speaking of homosexual sex acts on any level we are familiar with today we cannot claim that Romans 1 clearly declares that the ceremonial law still applies in this case.

As a practical matter homosexuality has been tied to the rape of boys by male priests

As a practical matter child sexual abuse is a horrific thing no matter who it is perpetrated against or just who the perpetrators are. Stating that somehow gays and lesbians are more likely to sexually assault children is refuted by stuies showing the exact opposite.



Dr. Carole Jenny reviewed and interviewed all cases children who were sexually abused and seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% of the cases. The most common perpetrator was either the child’s biological father, the child’s step father, or an adult male who was sexually and/or romantically involved with the child’s mother.

Jenny, C., Roesler, T. A., & Poyer, K. L. (1994). Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals? Pediatrics, 94(1), 41-44.



Groth and Birnbaum interviewed adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men interviewed either self-identified or could be identified as being a homosexual.

Groth, A.N., & Birnbaum, H.J. (1978). Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7 (3), 175-181.





Researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children.

Freund, K., Watson, R., & Rienzo, D. (1989). Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and erotic age preference. The Journal of Sex Research, 26 (1), 107-117.

and the proliferation of AIDS in US and Europe,

You may wish to look into HIV/AIDS statistics. The World Health Organization is an excellent place to do so http://www.who.int/en/ and here you can find that the primary vector of HIV/AIDS transmission is heterosexual sex.



Conveniently lost in the history of HIV/AIDS is the Gay Hepatitis B Vaccine experiment.

In 1976 1000 healthy young gay men in Manhatten were vaccinated against Hepatitis B. the Vaccine being used was an experimental model using a single dose instead of the standard series of three injections. The vaccine could be given in a single dose because it contained active Hepatits B antibodies form individuals already infected with the diseases. In words of one syllable in 1976 1000 gay men were injected with the blood products of sick individuals.

Szmuness, W. Stevens C. Harley E et al: Hepatitis-B vaccine: Demonstration of efficacy in a controlled clinical trial in a high-risk population in the United States. New England Journal of Medicine 303: 833-841, 1980.

Of the 1000 test subjects all are dead and all dies of HIV/AIDS.

these things could be argued amount to rape and murder.

not really

While I don't know God's reasons for being against homosexuality I can venture a few guesses.

i don't think it is any god thath is agaisnt beign gay. try looking in a mirror.

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

*thinks that you (people in general) should start accepting others for the way they are, rather than trying to make them change into something that you want them to be.* Why is it so hard to accept people the way they are. The god/s are the only ones with the right to judge their followers. We have no right to judge the others of our religions.

 

[CrownCaster]

what are views on gays and should they be accepted into christianity and into churches..when they arent willing to change ?

A person should never be told they cannot fellowship with the church. Who knows when the Word of God will produce the desire to change? I would, however, not have that person be involved in the ministries of the Church as they obviously have not accepted Jesus yet. These people must know that first and foremost, Jesus loves them and we must do the same and second, that what they are engaged in is sin and will seperate them from God. Support them in making the right decisions but don't ask them to leave. Show love and you might be surprised how much of a draw it has on them to leave their lifestyle. Sin is sin. Each of us that have been saved had to abandon a lifestyle of sin. The Church would not tolerate a member robbing houses, stealing, or being a liar and a cheat and homosexuality is not different. Expose the sin and the consequence of it and love the person into the arms of Jesus to be healed.

 

[CrownCaster]

I very much agree with volos here... how can you compare someones sexual orientation to a CRIME such as rape or murder? homosexuality is definitely not a crime. And you say they CAN change their orientation, I am really not so sure that is an accurate assumption. I am assuming that you are heterosexual.... could you change your sexual orientation? Would you be able to change your lifestyle now to one of homosexuality?

God does not distinguish between sin. He does not have degrees of sin. He cannot allow any sin into His presence. That counts from stealing a piece of bubble gum to mass murdering a whole family. That is why He sent His Son to die and pay the price. Homosexuality is no different. In the eyes of God, it is the same as theft, blasphemy, murder, etc. Unfortunately it is becoming harder and harder in this corrupt society that says it is "normal" and that they were just "born that way" to get people to hear the message of the cross that has been brought down to redeem people from their sins, including homosexuality.