Gay Marriages

[Ave Maria]

I voted no because I am morally opposed to gay marriage.

 

[Edward Vil - E for short]

Are you morally opposed to athiest marriages?

 

[zoe_uu]

BTW, I am not commenting on whether or not homosexuality/ bisexuality is moral or not......

Riiiiiiiiight.... but you think it's OK to deny us legal marriage rights and treat BGLT people like second class citizens... I see.

 

[zoe_uu]

I voted no because I am morally opposed to gay marriage.

Then don't have one. But quit telling everyone else how to live their lives, thank you.

 

[JohnnyV]

Riiiiiiiiight.... but you think it's OK to deny us legal marriage rights and treat BGLT people like second class citizens... I see.

NOOOOOO, I do not treat Homosexuals as second class citizens. The question was do you think Gay marriage is ok. My answer was NO.
If the question was "do you think Gays are second class citizens" my answer would also be NO.

Dont assume you know me based solely on a personally opinion.
My best friend in the whole world is Gay and I do not know what I do without him in my life.

 

[zoe_uu]

NOOOOOO, I do not treat Homosexuals as second class citizens. The question was do you think Gay marriage is ok. My answer was NO.
If the question was "do you think Gays are second class citizens" my answer would also be NO.

Dont assume you know me based solely on a personally opinion.
My best friend in the whole world is Gay and I do not know what I do without him in my life.

Denying gays the same rights as heterosexuals, is making them second class citizens. You're saying we're not worthy of the same rights you have simply because we are different from you.

 

[JohnnyV]

No, what I said was, I did not think marriage was for "my" Gay friends. as I do not agree marriage is for some str8 people either.
That is what I said.

 

[Ananel]

(Veggie, apologies if I pre-emptively misinterpret your stance. I'm clarifying the general position as I have seen it presented often, and acknowledge that some people have slightly different reasons behind their motives [such as myself])

NOOOOOO, I do not treat Homosexuals as second class citizens. The question was do you think Gay marriage is ok. My answer was NO.
If the question was "do you think Gays are second class citizens" my answer would also be NO.

Dont assume you know me based solely on a personally opinion.
My best friend in the whole world is Gay and I do not know what I do without him in my life.

I believe that you misunderstand Veggie's point. Her view seems to be that, by standing against the right to marriage of homosexuals, you are violating their civil rights in accordance with the 9th amendment. Her viewpoint would likely be that you are specifying that all citizens should not recieve the same rights and privileges, where you are viewing the matter either in purely moral terms or in at least partially legal terms by stating that marriage is preset legally as between a man and a woman, and therefore no right is impunged upon.

Her argument will likely rely upon penumbra theory regarding the Bill of Rights. You can find some commentary on the penumbra as it first occurs in the case of Griswold v. Conneticut in 1965. For clarity purposes, here is an excerpt from a summary site on the subject of more modern interpretation of the 9th amendment.

The Ninth Amendment had been mentioned infrequently in decisions of the Supreme Court until it became the subject of some exegesis by several of the Justices in Griswold v. Connecticut. There a statute prohibiting use of contraceptives was voided as an infringement of the right of marital privacy. Justice Douglas, writing the opinion of the Court, asserted that the ''specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance.'' Thus, while privacy is nowhere mentioned, it is one of the values served and protected by the First Amendment, through its protection of associational rights, and by the Third, the Fourth, and the Fifth Amendments as well. The Justice recurred to the text of the Ninth Amendment, apparently to support the thought that these penumbral rights are protected by one Amendment or a complex of Amendments despite the absence of a specific reference. Justice Goldberg, concurring, devoted several pages to the Amendment.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment09/

The argument that generally derives from a 9th amendment penumbra derivation of the 5th amendment themes. The view of those in Veggie's camp is probably (though not necessarily) that the protection of life, liberty and property in the 5th amendment includes the liberty inherent in the right to marry and the property inherent in the marriage contract and incumbant tax (and other) benefits.

I hope that clarifies the topic for you somewhat. Now, I don't necessarily expect you to agree with Justices Goldberg and Douglas, or with their decision. However, this should give you an idea where Veggie might be coming from here.

 

[JohnnyV]

Also Veggie, I just want to tell you, I was in a gay relationship for over 13 years. I had the chance to get married in Amsterdam and I would not do it then. You seem to think I do not understand where gays are coming from, however I know all too well. I lived as a Bisexual man for over 20 years. I know the plight of Gays in america and I fully understand. Just because my opinion is different than yours does not make either of us right.

 

[Ananel]

Also Veggie, I just want to tell you, I was in a gay relationship for over 13 years. I had the chance to get married in Amsterdam and I would not do it then. You seem to think I do not understand where gays are coming from, however I know all too well. I lived as a Bisexual man for over 20 years. I know the plight of Gays in america and I fully understand. Just because my opinion is different than yours does not make either of us right.

And anecdotal evidence really doesn't hold that much water, Johnny. I gave you an explanation of US law concerning the debate over gay marriage rights on page 10 at the bottom.

 

[zoe_uu]

Also Veggie, I just want to tell you, I was in a gay relationship for over 13 years. I had the chance to get married in Amsterdam and I would not do it then. You seem to think I do not understand where gays are coming from, however I know all too well. I lived as a Bisexual man for over 20 years. I know the plight of Gays in america and I fully understand. Just because my opinion is different than yours does not make either of us right.

Well Johnny, I am gay and have been a committed relationship with my partner for almost 5 years. I want the option to marry her, legally. Now, just because you don't want to marry, doesn't mean that all gays should be denied the option of marriage. You seem to be forgetting that the majority of BGLT would like to have the OPTION of marriage. No, not all will marry or will even want to, just as it is with heterosexuals. But why not have the option for those that do? To not have the legal right to marriage for EVERYONE is just blatantly wrong in the "land of the free".

 

[JohnnyV]

See the thing is, why have opinion based posts if people can not understand that there is going to be people who oppose them?
Veggie you have the right to believe anything you would like as do I. I do not think you or any gay/lesbian person is inferior to me, and you are wrong for insinuating that. My opinion on this matter does not make me a terrible person. Nor does your opinion make you a terrible person. Thats all Im saying. I should learn to ignore these kinds of posts because in reality the achieve nothing but anger, and division. Im sorry Veggie If I offended you or anyone else.

 

[zoe_uu]

I do not think you or any gay/lesbian person is inferior to me, and you are wrong for insinuating that.

See, I don't think I am wrong about that. You are saying that I am not good enough to have a legal marriage. Why?

 

[JohnnyV]

I never said that veggie Im sorry you took my comments as a personal attack. I do not know you and never said you personally were not good enough for marriage nor did I say that gays were not good enough for marriage. All I was basing my opinion on are the gays that I know and from my own experience. I am not changing my mind about that, but IF you want to get married, have at it. I am not Lord God almighty, nor am I in a position to change the laws.
I know better than to get into these convos but, here I am...
Have a great day, and I hope that you get what you desire. Peace.

 

[zoe_uu]

But you don't think we should be allowed to marry.... why?

 

[JohnnyV]

I dont think gays should be allowed to marry for the same reason I do not think most str8 couples should be allowed to marry. People today are not monogamous. They cheat on each other, and do not take marriage seriously. Thats why. Not that they are inferior, not that they are evil, not they are anything other than people. Str8 or Gay, marriage is something special and MOST PEOPLE do not take it as anything more than an act for tax breaks and as something that is disposable.
Thats why, STR* or Gay its the same. I actually think Str8s need to rethink the whole marriage thing too, but that was not part of the question.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

-=<] MOD HAT ON [>=-
I was going to clean this thread and leave it open. However there are just too many posts that would have to be removed. I have removed the more obvious postsm but at this point I am just closing the thread so it can be gone through later to make sure further warnings don't need to be issued.
-=<] MOD HAT OFF [>=-

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

This thread has degraded off the original topic in too many places, it has had to be closed.