Garden of Eden, tree of knowledge

chris4243 · Apr 3, 2011

bling said:
wow are you kidding?

2 Samuel 12 - Passage Lookup - New International Version, Â©2011 - BibleGateway.com
13 Then David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD.
Nathan replied, The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriahs wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth[b] on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died.

elman · Apr 4, 2011

chris4243 said:
2 Samuel 12 - Passage[bless and do not curse]Lookup - New International Version, Â©2011 - BibleGateway.com
13 Then David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD.
Nathan replied, The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriahs wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth[b] on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died.

I believe in a loving God that is good all the time. I do not believe this is divine truth. I do not think God kills children to punish us. Ezekiel 18 says we kill our own soul with our own sin. That I believe to be divine truth.

bling · Apr 4, 2011

chris4243 said:
2 Samuel 12 - Passage[bless and do not curse]Lookup - New International Version, Â©2011 - BibleGateway.com
13 Then David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD.
Nathan replied, The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriahs wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth[b] on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died.

I am familiar with the story, but that is a very specific case, in keeping with the Law what should have been done to David and Bathsheba?

Are there any parallels with Christ we can draw from this story (the innocent dying for the guilty)?

What result is God trying to accomplish with the death of Jobs kids?

Was there something wonderful that came out of the death of Davids baby that is not payback?

Do you see something different about the promises and results under the Old Testament that do not apply to the New testament?

Read John 9: 1-7 and tell me why that could not apply to ever tragedy?

Is sin said to be the cause of this tragedy?

HisHomeMaker · Apr 4, 2011

bling said:
Do you see something different about the promises and results under the Old Testament that do not apply to the New testament?

Read John 9: 1-7 and tell me why that could not apply to ever tragedy?

Is sin said to be the cause of this tragedy?

God is not the cause of suffering, but he helps us find purpose in our suffering.

bling · Apr 5, 2011

HisHomeMaker said:
God is not the cause of suffering, but he helps us find purpose in our suffering.

Like with Job, God allows (uses) satan to cause suffering to help Job or us in the long run.

elman · Apr 5, 2011

bling said:
Like with Job, God allows (uses) satan to cause suffering to help Job or us in the long run.

I just do not believe that. I agree God can use our suffering and help us to use our suffering for good, but I do not believe God causes our suffering, either directly or through agents.

HisHomeMaker · Apr 5, 2011

WE allow Satan into our lives. We have free will given to us by God.

bling · Apr 6, 2011

HisHomeMaker said:
WE allow Satan into our lives. We have free will given to us by God.

Did Job?

bling · Apr 7, 2011

elman said:
I just do not believe that. I agree God can use our suffering and help us to use our suffering for good, but I do not believe God causes our suffering, either directly or through agents.

Allowing and causing satan to do something is the same in many people's eyes? If suffering would help us fulfill our objective would god allow that suffering?

elman · Apr 7, 2011

bling said:
Allowing and causing satan to do something is the same in many people's eyes? If suffering would help us fulfill our objective would god allow that suffering?

Allowing me to harm someone is part of allowing me to chose to love others. That has nothing to do with Satan in my opinion. Yes God allows us to be unloving in order that we can be able to chose the loving thing to do. However God sending an angel or Satan to cause us to suffer is not in this catagory, and if such a thing is true, then God is not good all the time. Acting through an agent makes the principal responsible for the actions of the agent.

bling · Apr 8, 2011

elman said:
Allowing me to harm someone is part of allowing me to chose to love others. That has nothing to do with Satan in my opinion. Yes God allows us to be unloving in order that we can be able to chose the loving thing to do. However God sending an angel or Satan to cause us to suffer is not in this catagory, and if such a thing is true, then God is not good all the time. Acting through an agent makes the principal responsible for the actions of the agent.

Why is a person born blind?

There seems to be a distinction with God allowing satan to do stuff and not doing it directly. But if you want to make God responcible, OK. When you think about what we consider "tragedies" they are really not significant compared to our life in heaven. These "tragedies are unfortunately needed opportunities.

elman · Apr 8, 2011

bling said:
Why is a person born blind?

There seems to be a distinction with God allowing satan to do stuff and not doing it directly. But if you want to make God responcible, OK. When you think about what we consider "tragedies" they are really not significant compared to our life in heaven. These "tragedies are unfortunately needed opportunities.

I don't think it is because God made the baby blind. I also do not think it was done by Satan. Some are born blind because of disease. Tragedity is bad, but not the same as evil. Evil can cause tragedity, but all tragedity is not caused by evil and certainly not by the evil of men.

Rhovanion · Apr 9, 2011

Am I the only one who sees the blatantly obvious metaphors here? The God of the Bible didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. The Tree of Knowledge. Why didn't he want them to gain knowledge? Because he wanted them to remain ignorant. And if you're ignorant, you're easy to control. And if you're easy to control, you don't have a mind of your own. And if you don't have a mind of your own, you'll believe anything you're told.

No wonder followers of Christ are called sheep.

oi_antz · Apr 10, 2011

chris4243 said:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

4 You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

22 And the LORD God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

It seems like the difference between someone warning you not to eat some cookies because they're poisonous and you'll die, and someone killing you because you ate their cookie. Per verse 22, man would have had the option to live forever if God himself did not take it away. Judge for yourself what seems the more honest, rather than parroting what you've been taught about how nasty and evil Satan is.

Hey all, just going to catch up on a few things, forgive me for addressing the issues I see as they arise in order of my reading, especially if they've already been addressed.

Chris, I know the way you are thinking here, and it isn't at all a fair way to portray God. He said that humans having now become "like us", therefore being aware of good and evil, what if they were to live forever? What do you think would have happened to the world if that happened? An untamed human knowing good and evil that would never die. Well, maybe have a think about that. So the law that was in effect from verse 17 stands to state that they will be judged for their sins, and we know later that God shortened their lifespan to 120 years. So the serpent lied and in doing so, murdered the humans. Hence why Jesus calls the devil a liar and murderer in John 8:44. Also notice that Jesus has promised to give us the right to eat from the tree of life in Revelation 2:7, so all we need do is be victorious in Jesus' teaching, and we will be given the right to eat of the tree of life.

oi_antz · Apr 10, 2011

solarwave said:
Also to add to think Adam and Eve apparently didn't have knowledge of right and wrong before they ate from the tree and so wouldn't know that they shouldn't eat from the tree.

They had the conscience, but they didn't have a tempter. So when the serpent came and tempted them they had no experience dealing with temptation. A Christian does however, because it is a daily battle with the serpent who tries to get us to disobey our conscience and therefore commit sin. Adam was clearly told in Genesis 2:17 that eating from that tree would doom him to death, and Genesis 3:3 shows that Eve knew full well the consequences of disobeying God. So, were they tricked or did they consciously decide to doubt what God had told them and to trust the serpent instead? Furthermore, what motivated their decision?

oi_antz · Apr 10, 2011

chris4243 said:
But why the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the one that Satan claims and God confirms, that eating from it will make them more like God? Why not mark some random tree in the garden, and tell them to not eat from that one? That would give them a choice and also not deprive them of morality.

The point is that all they had to do was trust what God had told them, instead they decided to trust what the serpent told them. Up to that point in time, they seemed quite happy with God's terms didn't they?

oi_antz · Apr 10, 2011

Rhovanion said:
Am I the only one who sees the blatantly obvious metaphors here? The God of the Bible didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. The Tree of Knowledge. Why didn't he want them to gain knowledge? Because he wanted them to remain ignorant. And if you're ignorant, you're easy to control. And if you're easy to control, you don't have a mind of your own. And if you don't have a mind of your own, you'll believe anything you're told.

No wonder followers of Christ are called sheep.

No, it is the Nicolaitans that do that, that is, those who don't do the will of Jesus' Father in heaven.

Matthew 7:20-22 (New International Version, ©2011)

20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’

God wanted to protect us by sheltering the human from knowledge that the human was not able to possess responsibly. So the knowledge that comes from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the knowledge that God, Christ and the angels have. Notice that some of the angels are incapable of having this knowledge and remaining holy, so too with the human. No matter how long we live, we will never escape the clutches of sin. That is why we must one day die and face judgement. Jesus promises though that if you give your life to follow Him, you will be born again by the spirit of God. So no longer do we have the knowledge of spiritual things while being spiritually dead, but we have The Holy Spirit within us to guide us through the valley of the shadow of death. Also, we know that God is holy and He hates sin, so we must work to rid our lives of sin if we are to have the fullness of His Spirit within us.

chris4243 · Apr 10, 2011

oi_antz said:
But why the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the one that Satan claims and God confirms, that eating from it will make them more like God? Why not mark some random tree in the garden, and tell them to not eat from that one? That would give them a choice and also not deprive them of morality.

Click to expand...

The point is that all they had to do was trust what God had told them, instead they decided to trust what the serpent told them. Up to that point in time, they seemed quite happy with God's terms didn't they?

That's exactly my point. God should have marked some random tree in the garden and told them not to eat from that one, at which point all they had to do was trust what God had told them, and not instead trust what the serpent told them. But instead God chose to deprive them of morality unless they chose to disobey Him.

If what you said is true, it would have been better for God to mark any other tree, not the one that could grant them morality. After all, it would still give them a choice, something they could disobey, and yet not deprive them of morality.

chris4243 · Apr 10, 2011

oi_antz said:
Chris, I know the way you are thinking here, and it isn't at all a fair way to portray God. He said that humans having now become "like us", therefore being aware of good and evil, what if they were to live forever? What do you think would have happened to the world if that happened? An untamed human knowing good and evil that would never die. Well, maybe have a think about that.

I think it would be far better than amoral humans that live forever. Don't you teach your children to distinguish good from evil? Why would you do that?

chris4243 · Apr 10, 2011

oi_antz said:
So the law that was in effect from verse 17 stands to state that they will be judged for their sins, and we know later that God shortened their lifespan to 120 years. So the serpent lied and in doing so, murdered the humans. Hence why Jesus calls the devil a liar and murderer in John 8:44.

Yet it was clearly not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that led to their deaths; and both God and the serpent equally deceived Adam and Eve by telling a half-truth. God deceived Adam and Eve by telling them that they would die if they ate from the tree, as if the act itself would kill them but without telling them that it would be God's reaction to their act that would kill them. The serpent also told a half-truth; they would indeed not die from eating the fruit but God's reaction to that act would be fatal and so they would die as a consequence.

As for your claim that this is an example of the serpent being a murderer, that is clearly false -- it was God who murdered Adam and Eve, as a reaction to their disobedience. Unless God does not have free will (and a good argument can be made that He does not), this would leave God and not the serpent as responsible for their deaths. This is similar to how the pastor that burned a Koran is not directly responsible for the actions of the rioters because the people have free will. "You made me do it" is not fitting for God.

Garden of Eden, tree of knowledge

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