Gap theory

[JDS]

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Why was God making the heavenly bodies in day 4 if there were a pre creation? How was that dispensation lighted? Is there any scripture that the chaotic rebellion and judgment that laid the earth void extended to the heavens?

 

[Dispy]

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Why was God making the heavenly bodies in day 4 if there were a pre creation? How was that dispensation lighted? Is there any scripture that the chaotic rebellion and judgment that laid the earth void extended to the heavens?

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. and the earth was (became) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Gen. 1,2)

Strong's H1961 -was: haw-yaw' -
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Do believe that verse one tells me that the sun, moon, and stars were already created in the beginning, however they could not beseen because, as verse 2 says: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." IMHO it was the waters that keep the sun, moon, and stars from showing their light upon the earth. Therefore, I do believe that on the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars were made to appear. Further, IMHO, God would not create something that was "null and void." Do believe that everything He created was perfect, and had a purpose.

 

[ezek33]

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Why was God making the heavenly bodies in day 4 if there were a pre creation? How was that dispensation lighted? Is there any scripture that the chaotic rebellion and judgment that laid the earth void extended to the heavens?

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. and the earth was (became) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Gen. 1,2)

Strong's H1961 -was: haw-yaw' -
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Do believe that verse one tells me that the sun, moon, and stars were already created in the beginning, however they could not beseen because, as verse 2 says: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." IMHO it was the waters that keep the sun, moon, and stars from showing their light upon the earth. Therefore, I do believe that on the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars were made to appear. Further, IMHO, God would not create something that was "null and void." Do believe that everything He created was perfect, and had a purpose.

The bible does not say that God made the Sun and Moon ''appear'' on the fourth day. It says that God ''made'' the Sun, and Moon on the fourth day. You either believe scripture or you do not. you cannot say well it says this but I believe that. So JDS question remains unanswered. During the supposed ''gap'' of millions of years betwee Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 the Sun nor moon existed. So how was that age lighted?

 

[JDS]

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. and the earth was (became) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Gen. 1,2)

Strong's H1961 -was: haw-yaw' -
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Do believe that verse one tells me that the sun, moon, and stars were already created in the beginning, however they could not beseen because, as verse 2 says: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." IMHO it was the waters that keep the sun, moon, and stars from showing their light upon the earth. Therefore, I do believe that on the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars were made to appear. Further, IMHO, God would not create something that was "null and void." Do believe that everything He created was perfect, and had a purpose.

DO you really understand the concepts of "copula" and "auxillary" and "emphatic" and do you you understand a concept like "face"?
Here is what is actually said.

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

You said:
IMHO it was the waters that keep the sun, moon, and stars from showing their light upon the earth. Therefore, I do believe that on the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars were made to appear.

Why would you believe that? The scriptures nowhere says that. The darkness was upon "the face" of the deep. Light drives darkness away. If the light from the heavenly bodies were in existence, then the darkness could not be. It is that simple.

For me to believe that God created the earth in any other form than is given us in Ge 1:2, he would have had to say "and the earth became without form and void"

There is no law that says God must create something in it's final brilliance.

The body of Jesus is an example.

He prepared him a body.
He made it in the likeness of sinful flesh
It was put to death
He raised it from the dead in glory
The end is much greater than the beginning

It is not hard for me to believe that God created the earth exactly as he said.

 

[Biblewriter]

What was the extent of the creation do you thiat? Humans, animals, time, angels?

Humans, no, animals, yes. Intelligent life? maybe. Time and angels? these are not earth centered, and thus would not have been part of the previous destruction.

Was there a saviour from sin?

I don't see how there could have been.

 

[zeke37]

Was there a saviour from sin?
​

I don't see how there could have been.

I don't know how their could not have been a mercy seat...that which was guarded by the archangels. The arc was a representation of that mercy seat, and what Satan wanted to sit in....the reason for his fall.

 

[zeke37]

For me to believe that God created the earth in any other form than is given us in Ge 1:2, he would have had to say "and the earth became without form and void"

actually, He did....man interpreted it wrong...the hebrew does say BECAME A RUIN, AN UNDISTINGUISHABLE RUIN.,

There is no law that says God must create something in it's final brilliance.

The body of Jesus is an example.

He prepared him a body.
He made it in the likeness of sinful flesh
It was put to death
He raised it from the dead in glory
The end is much greater than the beginning

It is not hard for me to believe that God created the earth exactly as he said.

And He did...But many interpret that differently and the KJV got the translation wrong.

Jer4 describes the ending of that first age.

 

[JDS]

actually, He did....man interpreted it wrong...the hebrew does say BECAME A RUIN, AN UNDISTINGUISHABLE RUIN.,


And He did...But many interpret that differently and the KJV got the translation wrong.

Jer4 describes the ending of that first age.

I read Jeremiah 4 again and I have a comment to make. If we say that the verses following refers to Ge 1:1, we must have some language in the text to tell us that. There is none in the text that I can find. Perhaps you see something and can point it out for us. If there is no language then it is subjective reasoning and that is dangerous for us to do.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

I do not know if anyone else has spent much time gleaning information about this terrible judgment called the day of the Lord, but I have. Terrible things will happen to the earth during these short years and at the end there will be a very great worldwide earthquake that will be simultaneous to Jesus Christ foot touching the Mount of Olives described in Ze 14 among other places. Nothing will be left standing see V 26. He is describing an earthquake here. This is in the context of tjudgment.

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

 

[Biblewriter]

If you say it it is more reason for me not to believe it.

This is flaming, and is an explicit violation of forum rules.

 

[Biblewriter]

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Why was God making the heavenly bodies in day 4 if there were a pre creation? How was that dispensation lighted? Is there any scripture that the chaotic rebellion and judgment that laid the earth void extended to the heavens?

There is not even a scripture that says that the chaotic state that the earth was in in Genesis 1:2 was the result of judgment. A past judgment is just an assumption.

 

[JDS]

There is not even a scripture that says that the chaotic state that the earth was in in Genesis 1:2 was the result of judgment. A past judgment is just an assumption.

The fossil records suggests death! Death suggests judgment! Isn't the reason for the gap to accommodate these records?

 

[zeke37]

I read Jeremiah 4 again and I have a comment to make. If we say that the verses following refers to Ge 1:1, we must have some language in the text to tell us that. There is none in the text that I can find. Perhaps you see something and can point it out for us. If there is no language then it is subjective reasoning and that is dangerous for us to do.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

I do not know if anyone else has spent much time gleaning information about this terrible judgment called the day of the Lord, but I have. Terrible things will happen to the earth during these short years and at the end there will be a very great worldwide earthquake that will be simultaneous to Jesus Christ foot touching the Mount of Olives described in Ze 14 among other places. Nothing will be left standing see V 26. He is describing an earthquake here. This is in the context of tjudgment.

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

biblewriter...actually, there was a judgement...look up the greek word katabole.


but as for Jer4, JDS...

the end time coming of the Lord, is described in Jer4, up till verse21. then the age in the past is described, even using void and without form...the people are sottish...(ignorant) of the past age.

the woman travailing....like in Rev12's beginning.

 

[JDS]

biblewriter...actually, there was a judgement...look up the greek word katabole.


but as for Jer4, JDS...

the end time coming of the Lord, is described in Jer4, up till verse21. then the age in the past is described, even using void and without form...the people are sottish...(ignorant) of the past age.

the woman travailing....like in Rev12's beginning.

We are governed by rules of grammar. I agree that God uses this method that you have stated in his prophecies, but the rule for doing so is always present. Where is it in this text?

Here is an example:

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Biblewriter]

For me to believe that God created the earth in any other form than is given us in Ge 1:2, he would have had to say "and the earth became without form and void"

Actually, that is what God said.

The Hebrew word translated as “was” in the clause “the earth was without form, and void” is הָיָה, or hâyâh, word number 1961 in Strong’s Hebrew dictionary. This Hebrew word occurs well over a thousand times in the Masoretic text, and a full thirty-five times in the creation account alone (the first three chapters of Genesis.)

This word sometimes indeed indicates a fixed condition, as in Genesis 3:1"Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.” But most of the time it indicates a condition that has (or will) come about as the result of a change, as in Genesis 1:3"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” But more significant to this discussion is the fact that in three cases in this short section alone, the King James translators rendered this word as “became” or “become.” This first of these is Genesis 2:7"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” The second is Genesis 2:10"And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.” And the third is Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...” From this we see that in in the creation account, most of the places where the Hebrew word translated “was” in the clause “the earth was without form, and void,” were translated “became,” rather than “was.” If this is what God was saying, the true meaning of Genesis 1:1-2 is that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth became without form, and void.” If this is what God meant by these words, He was indicating that the earth itself is older that the six thousand year age of the present creation.

 

[Biblewriter]

The fossil records suggests death! Death suggests judgment! Isn't the reason for the gap to accommodate these records?

If there is morally intelligent life, as of humankind today, then death would indeed suggest judgment. But "natural brute beasts" are "made to be taken and destroyed." (2 Peter 2:12) This kind of death is not judgment.

And for some the reason for "the gap theory" may to accommodate fossil records. But for me, the existence of a former creation on this planet is simply a matter of careful consideration of scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

biblewriter...actually, there was a judgement...look up the greek word katabole.


but as for Jer4, JDS...

the end time coming of the Lord, is described in Jer4, up till verse21. then the age in the past is described, even using void and without form...the people are sottish...(ignorant) of the past age.

the woman travailing....like in Rev12's beginning.

This is an interpretation, and one which I believe to be incorrect.

 

[JDS]

If there is morally intelligent life, as of humankind today, then death would indeed suggest judgment. But "natural brute beasts" are "made to be taken and destroyed." (2 Peter 2:12) This kind of death is not judgment.

And for some the reason for "the gap theory" may to accommodate fossil records. But for me, the existence of a former creation on this planet is simply a matter of careful consideration of scripture.

If this be true, then one must admit that God had no intention of perfection in his creation but built into his creation the second law of thermal dynamics.The next question is "why"?

 

[JDS]

Actually, that is what God said.

The Hebrew word translated as “was” in the clause “the earth was without form, and void” is הָיָה, or hâyâh, word number 1961 in Strong’s Hebrew dictionary. This Hebrew word occurs well over a thousand times in the Masoretic text, and a full thirty-five times in the creation account alone (the first three chapters of Genesis.)

This word sometimes indeed indicates a fixed condition, as in Genesis 3:1"Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.” But most of the time it indicates a condition that has (or will) come about as the result of a change, as in Genesis 1:3"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” But more significant to this discussion is the fact that in three cases in this short section alone, the King James translators rendered this word as “became” or “become.” This first of these is Genesis 2:7"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” The second is Genesis 2:10"And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.” And the third is Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...” From this we see that in in the creation account, most of the places where the Hebrew word translated “was” in the clause “the earth was without form, and void,” were translated “became,” rather than “was.” If this is what God was saying, the true meaning of Genesis 1:1-2 is that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth became without form, and void.” If this is what God meant by these words, He was indicating that the earth itself is older that the six thousand year age of the present creation.

It seems to me the exceptions proves the rule. One thing is sure, the KJV does not use the word "became" in Ge 1:2. I do not know how to speak Hebrew and I do not understand the nuances of the language and if I use it as the means to validate my doctrines, I am ultimately depending on some mans interpretation of the language. I have found that Hebrew scholars have not come to a consensus on anything.

If it was a sign of nobility for the Bereans to search the scriptures to see if what was spoken by the apostle Paul was true, it stands that they had a standand by which they tested everything and it might have been the Masoretic texts but it was a language they dead sure understood. If I apply this same noble action to this doctrine, then it stands to reason that I must have a standard that I understand and that I consider to be trustworthy. Otherwise, I am searching commentaries of scriptures that have no real authority. The proof is that there are just as many Hebrew scholars that take the young earth position

 

[zeke37]

I'm a big KJV guy, but it is very obvious that the KJV is just a translation by men..and prone to error.....and the men who translated it, wrote a letter to the king, saying as much. by your words, you are trusting some men's translationsn from four centuries ago. I see very many apparent contradictions, until one goes to the original languages and sees that there is no contradiction......but you are right about one thing, we must eventually trust someones opinion....Strong Murray Bullinger and Ginsburg are the ones I trust


example....thou shalt not kill....

but many biblical figures kill people...God Himself kills many too.



hebrew translation is criminal homcide....1st degree murder...lie in wait and plan a terrible thing. No contradiction.

 

[1whirlwind]

Actually, that is what God said.

The Hebrew word translated as “was” in the clause “the earth was without form, and void” is הָיָה, or hâyâh, word number 1961 in Strong’s Hebrew dictionary. This Hebrew word occurs well over a thousand times in the Masoretic text, and a full thirty-five times in the creation account alone (the first three chapters of Genesis.)

This word sometimes indeed indicates a fixed condition, as in Genesis 3:1"Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.” But most of the time it indicates a condition that has (or will) come about as the result of a change, as in Genesis 1:3"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” But more significant to this discussion is the fact that in three cases in this short section alone, the King James translators rendered this word as “became” or “become.” This first of these is Genesis 2:7"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” The second is Genesis 2:10"And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.” And the third is Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...” From this we see that in in the creation account, most of the places where the Hebrew word translated “was” in the clause “the earth was without form, and void,” were translated “became,” rather than “was.” If this is what God was saying, the true meaning of Genesis 1:1-2 is that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth became without form, and void.” If this is what God meant by these words, He was indicating that the earth itself is older that the six thousand year age of the present creation.

I agree.

11 Peter 3:5-7 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.