Gambling

[Tom 1]

Before reading some research about slot machine players recently, I'd always assumed that most gamblers are sweaty addicts, chasing big wins and ending up in massive debt etc. Turns out research shows the majority of casino (online and on land) users are recreational gamblers, who like spending money on something they enjoy, and in the long term only lose something like 3-5% of their stakes.

This isn't about whether gambling is a good or bad idea, personally I have no interest in it, but I'm curious to hear from anyone who gambles recreationally and sees it in the same light as any other hobby, i.e. something you enjoy doing and don't mind spending some money on.

 

[Petros2015]

Turns out research shows the majority of casino (online and on land) users are recreational gamblers, who like spending money on something they enjoy, and in the long term only lose something like 3-5% of their stakes.

I seriously question that research.
Las Vegas was built on what was and is lost.
I'm familiar with casinos, have you walked into one? What do you see?

I suppose it could be true of 'the majority', just as the majority of people
are not alcoholic. But you take the ~15% that are and the damage gets immense.
And the casino is fine as catch and release hobby for the others. But those are the ones it's built to catch and destroy, or does catch and destroy regardless of what it was built for.

 

[tampasteve]

I gamble on horse races fairly frequently, 4-6 afternoons a year. It is more of a fun afternoon out for me. The races only charge $2 entry and you don't have to bet. I usually bet $2-$4 per race, on 5 or 6 races. So, the whole afternoon usually costs me at worst $25, at best nothing or it is a wash.

it is just a nice time out with friends in a nice place. The people at the horse track where I live are not low-class or low-life at all, they are all really nice and upstanding looking people.

I occasionally go to the local casino, maybe once a year or less. I used to go to Las Vegas annually, even then I would spend less than $100 gambling the whole time.

 

[jacks]

I think gambling is recreational for most (like many drugs) but a serious problem for others.(Apparently about 5%). See HERE and HERE Seems like it can really destroy some lives.

 

[Petros2015]

Horse races, live, probably not so bad. They don't run that often, tickets are priced small, can be enjoyable. (for me with a friend, on a date, etc)

Card game w friends, live, not so bad. Enjoy the company win or lose. I don't consider Poker to be gambling if played correctly
After that, for me, probably not a good idea. I used to enjoy online poker, but not so much anymore. I used to play Casino All-In Texas Hold'em but I can't justify the expense.

Most of gambling I think is getting the mind to dis-associate the value of money from the decision making process, and to reassociate winning with a higher value than it should have. Hence all the "bling bling bling!" fireworks of slot machines.

The real gambler doesn't just want to win - he wants to be Lucky and win Lucky. And the unluckier he feels, the more he needs to be lucky. And his God smiles or frowns on him with each roll of the dice. What are you doing to do then if God frowns?

Keep rolling the dice, or pulling the slot until he smiles.
Which could be a long, long time.

 

[Tom 1]

I seriously question that research.
Las Vegas was built on what was and is lost.
I'm familiar with casinos, have you walked into one? What do you see?

I suppose it could be true of 'the majority', just as the majority of people
are not alcoholic. But you take the ~15% that are and the damage gets immense.
And the casino is fine as catch and release hobby for the others. But those are the ones it's built to catch and destroy, or does catch and destroy regardless of what it was built for.

Yes I think there's certainly a minority who come a cropper, as with anything addictive. I've only been to one casino and it didn't do anything for me, kind of the ultimate in cheap thrills and phony glitz. Casino regulation has tightened up a lot in the last couple of decades, in Europe at least, and players can average something like a 90-95% return on very €1 spent, as opposed to something more like 70% in the old days. Real crash and burn cases are relatively rare I think.

 

[Petros2015]

Real crash and burn cases are relatively rare I think.

Yes I imagine most happen over relatively long periods of time, getting slightly worse, and almost never better. Train wrecks, in slow motion.

"Progressive Slots" lol

 

[Robban]

Before reading some research about slot machine players recently, I'd always assumed that most gamblers are sweaty addicts, chasing big wins and ending up in massive debt etc. Turns out research shows the majority of casino (online and on land) users are recreational gamblers, who like spending money on something they enjoy, and in the long term only lose something like 3-5% of their stakes.

This isn't about whether gambling is a good or bad idea, personally I have no interest in it, but I'm curious to hear from anyone who gambles recreationally and sees it in the same light as any other hobby, i.e. something you enjoy doing and don't mind spending some money on.

Haha,yep, father mine used to play the horses as he called it.
He saw it as a little bit of sport a hobby.

He would do complicaed systems involving 5-6 horses

in different races and tracks, playing for peanuts but if

they all came in he would win a good bit.

Though it was mostly after he had filled about 80yrs,

and had slowed down from working.

 

[Tom 1]

Horse races, live, probably not so bad. They don't run that often, tickets are priced small, can be enjoyable. (for me with a friend, on a date, etc)

Card game w friends, live, not so bad. Enjoy the company win or lose. I don't consider Poker to be gambling if played correctly
After that, for me, probably not a good idea. I used to enjoy online poker, but not so much anymore. I used to play Casino All-In Texas Hold'em but I can't justify the expense.

Most of gambling I think is getting the mind to dis-associate the value of money from the decision making process, and to reassociate winning with a higher value than it should have. Hence all the "bling bling bling!" fireworks of slot machines.

The real gambler doesn't just want to win - he wants to be Lucky and win Lucky. And the unluckier he feels, the more he needs to be lucky. And his God smiles or frowns on him with each roll of the dice. What are you doing to do then if God frowns?

Keep rolling the dice, or pulling the slot until he smiles.
Which could be a long, long time.

In the UK dog and horse races are big social events, betting is just part of the experience for most people.

 

[Tom 1]

Haha,yep, father mine used to play the horses as he called it.
He saw it as a little bit of sport a hobby.

He would do complicaed systems involving 5-6 horses

in different races and tracks, playing for peanuts but if

they all came in he would win a good bit.

Though it was mostly after he had filled about 80yrs,

and had slowed down from working.

Love the quote in your signature.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I seriously question that research.
Las Vegas was built on what was and is lost.
I'm familiar with casinos, have you walked into one? What do you see?

I suppose it could be true of 'the majority', just as the majority of people
are not alcoholic. But you take the ~15% that are and the damage gets immense.
And the casino is fine as catch and release hobby for the others. But those are the ones it's built to catch and destroy, or does catch and destroy regardless of what it was built for.

I've been to Vegas a couple of times and I take it as I'm going to lose $200 for entertainment. But yes, casinos have no windows so there is no sense of time. ATMs and restaurants nearby. Low cost watered down drinks can keep someone going.

Alan Parsons Project devoted an album to casinos: Turn of a Friendly Card

There's a sign in the desert that lies to the west
Where you can't tell the night from the sunrise
And not all the king's horses and all the king's men
Have prevented the fall of the unwise

And they think it will make their lives easier
For God knows up till now it's been hard
But the game never ends when your whole world depends
On the turn of a friendly card
No the game never ends when your whole world depends
On the turn of a friendly card

Snake eyes
Seven eleven
Don't let me down boys
Gimme snake eyes
Seven eleven
Don't let me down tonight
No don't let me down tonight

[Chorus]
Just one minute more
Give me just one minute more
It's gonna be alright, it's gonna be alright
Just one minute more
Then I'll walk right through that door
It's gonna be alright
It's gonna be alright

 

[SuperCow]

I never had any real interest in gambling, and when I was a kid I was taught it was a sin. Around 2003 or 2004 I started to develop an interest in Texas Hold'em on TV and played it for phoney money online. I still thought it was wrong, but I couldn't remember or find any scriptures condemning it, so I researched and found the sites that claimed it was wrong and went through all of their scriptural arguments.

Still, within all of the dozens of web sites and scriptures used, not one of them was actually about gambling. They were rather about principles that could be applied to gambling, but could also apply to many other things in your life that are seemingly okay. So my conclusion was that moderation is the key, and if gambling kills your ability to maintain balance, you shouldn't do it.

Regarding the statistics, they are likely accurate. Nevada gaming is heavily regulated not only for casinos breaking rules, but also the gamblers. However, statistics can be misleading. If the average loss is 3-5% over time, then average people are losing more than that, because there are expert gamblers that make money gambling, and those would be part of the average.

I remember when I used to trade commodities on the futures market, they used to say the 90% of people lose money, but another statistic is that 85% of people who lose money, never trade again. The people who make money investing, or make money gambling are doing it like it was a job, whether they realize it or not, because it's not easy and it takes discipline.

 

[lismore]

My late grandfather was and my uncle is a gambling addict. I have read the posts here, many are very interesting. But for me I think that gambling is so insidious I wouldn't want to be involved in any shape or form. Would I want to 'win' money that came from people so embroiled and troubled as my grandfather and uncle? By all means no.

As for a biblical case against gambling, I believe scripture would knock out most of the underlying supports, the greed, the factions, the competing, fruits of the sinful nature.

God Bless

 

[SuperCow]

My late grandfather was and my uncle is a gambling addict. I have read the posts here, many are very interesting. But for me I think that gambling is so insidious I wouldn't want to be involved in any shape or form. Would I want to 'win' money that came from people so embroiled and troubled as my grandfather and uncle? By all means no.

Very true, and in that situation you might also want to be concerned about a genetic factor sucking you in as an addict in this case.

As for a biblical case against gambling, I believe scripture would knock out most of the underlying supports, the greed, the factions, the competing, fruits of the sinful nature.
God Bless

I can tell you that the greedy people are not the ones making money gambling. Sure, once in a while an inexperienced person wins a jackpot, but making money over time is all about methodical experience and discipline. As soon as you get greedy (or scared) or mentally lazy, your discipline is shot and you will make mistakes.

My wife was making snide comments about playing poker one day, and I pointed out that if was in a bowling club or other activity it would probably cost me more. She asked "Your comparing poker to a sport?". And I said, "Well it's on ESPN".

But seriously, if you are investing money you can't afford to lose, whether that be gambling, stocks, art or other collectibles, you are making a mistake and that's when it becomes a more serious problem. Even changing jobs is a gamble if you think about it.

 

[Petros2015]

Hence all the "bling bling bling!" fireworks of slot machines.

Incidentally, the exact same style of the slot machine graphics, bells and whistles was built into the MTG Arena card game system. All the flashy bells and whistles of opening a new pack of cards to see if you got a Rare one or whatever and they epic effects when certain big cards are played during a game, it's 100% modelled after the slot machine system (from my personal experience with both). I'm 50 and I know the slot machines, but when the kids that are 14 walk into a casino for the first time, the guys that built this have made sure they do too. And why not? They both knew it works.

 

[MehGuy]

I do not understand the appeal of gambling. At least monetary gambling. Only been to a casino once in my life. Put 5 dollars into a slot machine and never saw the money again.. that was enough for me.. lol.

 

[Petros2015]

However, statistics can be misleading. If the average loss is 3-5% over time

Sure, all slot machines can be built to have a 95% or 97% return.
You can scientifically prove and check that for each individual slot machine, and by law they are required to.

But if 100 people visit Vegas with $100 each and play the slots, what happens?

Well, the ones that go to zero stop playing. (maybe - that's probably not true, but for purposes of this example, let's say it is)

And the ones that don't go to 0, and maybe go positive for a bit, keep playing.
Getting overall, a 97% chance of return with each pull.

Until it goes to 0.

If you don't walk away when the return is positive (and why would you if you were up? And why would you especially if you were down, and then went up a little bit, but not quite back up to where you were before...?)

The investment eventually goes to 0.

That's not a 97% return overall at the end of the Vegas adventure even though there was a 97% return on each pull

That's a 0% return

It just takes you roughly 100 pulls to get there

$100 $97.00
$97.00 $94.09
$94.09 $91.27
$91.27 $88.53
$88.53 $85.87
...
$5.54 $5.37
$5.37 $5.21
$5.21 $5.05
$5.05 $4.90
$4.90 $4.76 -- the 100th pull

Which in Vegas probably takes roughly 1 to 2 hours

 

[Robban]

Sure, all slot machines can be built to have a 95% or 97% return.
You can scientifically prove and check that for each individual slot machine, and by law they are required to.

But if 100 people visit Vegas with $100 each and play the slots, what happens?

Well, the ones that go to zero stop playing. (maybe - that's probably not true, but for purposes of this example, let's say it is)

And the ones that don't go to 0, and maybe go positive for a bit, keep playing.
Getting overall, a 97% chance of return with each pull.

Until it goes to 0.

If you don't walk away when the return is positive (and why would you if you were up? And why would you especially if you were down, and then went up a little bit, but not quite back up to where you were before...?)

The investment eventually goes to 0.

That's not a 97% return overall at the end of the Vegas adventure even though there was a 97% return on each pull

That's a 0% return

It just takes you roughly 100 pulls to get there

$100 $97.00
$97.00 $94.09
$94.09 $91.27
$91.27 $88.53
$88.53 $85.87
...
$5.54 $5.37
$5.37 $5.21
$5.21 $5.05
$5.05 $4.90
$4.90 $4.76 -- the 100th pull

Which in Vegas probably takes roughly 1 to 2 hours

Well, a hundred pulls is a hundred prayers ascending

in 1-2 hours, a pretty active prayer house.

 

[lismore]

Very true, and in that situation you might also want to be concerned about a genetic factor sucking you in as an addict in this case.
.

Thanks for your concern. I think I have one advantage, both my grandfather and my uncle were obsessed with sport, leaving family events to get sports scores etc. I have no interest. I think it's similar to alcohol, it might be in the genes but if it doesn't come in the mouth then you're ok. If you have nothing to do with sports then your chance of becoming a sports betting addict is nil. God Bless

 

[lismore]

Turns out research shows the majority of casino (online and on land) users are recreational gamblers, who like spending money on something they enjoy, and in the long term only lose something like 3-5% of their stakes.

I remember reading research sponsored by the brewer's association which showed the benefits of beer drinking.