Galatians Chapter 3 Parsed

BrotherJJ · Mar 28, 2023

safswan said:
I never said, you said, what you number as 1st. I clearly said that, this is what your interpretation, of what the law that is established is, would produce.

This is because the law Paul is asking, if it is made void by faith, is the same law that he answers in the negative, and says it is established. You claim the first mention of law in the verse, is what you call the,"OT Mosaic law". However to prop up your false doctrine,you now have to claim the second mention is, the law of faith. This makes no sense.I will attempt to help you understand this one last time.

1.Faith is not being contrasted with faith.Law is being contrasted with faith.
2.The law being asked about, must be the same law answered about, at the second mention of law.
3.If you claim the second mention of law is,the "law of faith",the the first mention must be the same, as the second mention of law, is in response to the first mention.It is the same law that is being commented on by Paul.
4.If the first mention is,the,"OT Mosaic law",then the second must be the same for the reason given in 3. above.It is one(3.) or the other(4.) and neither will please you.(3.) makes no sense and (4.) destroys your doctrine.

As I said before,this is basic comprehension, and if one is not able to understand this, then they will not be able to put anything into context,they will only bring confusion.

Your misrepresentation of what I said, is a sign of the misrepresentation of the scriptures, that has taken place in your presentation.

Rom 3: (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Boasting is the question here. FAITH is the chapter topic!

Here again you've make up what the author says & I've highlighted. Blathering on about contrasting faith with faith, you're the only one that's made this claim. The context (you fail to understand) comes from vs 24, It's Justification. So, vs 27 is confirming vs 24. No one can boast about their own self works (of Mosaic law adherence) leading to/accessing justification before God. The chapter context (you fail to understand) is that FAITH is the conduit/access point to Justification/righteousness before God & eliminates any self boasting.

You're free to disagree. I stand behind everything I posted. Best wishes, JJ

Studyman · Mar 28, 2023

BrotherJJ said:
OT Mosaic Law demanded righteousness through self-works. NT supplies righteousness by God's grace &, through faith in Christ's work.

No. It is important to understand what "works" were required to provide for the forgiveness of sin after the golden calf. It was required to bring a sin offering to the Priest of God. This was the "Old Covenant". The New covenant, which was the change of the Priesthood, still requires that we bring to the Priest of God a sin offering, only not an animal, rather, "Repentance" from the heart. The New Covenant is the Christ telling men to "Go and Transgress no more" and the promise of help in that endeavor. Striving against SIN is a requirement today, as it was for Abraham. It was supposed to be that way in the Exodus as well, but the Priest's corrupted the Priesthood Covenant God "ADDED" because Israel Transgressed.

The Old Covenant was the requirement to bring an animal to a human priest and kill it in their presence. A man was not allowed to do these "works" by themselves, ever, as King Saul demonstrates. This was the "Law of works". But in both the Old and New Priesthoods, we are to bring a sin offering to God's Priest. As Jesus Himself teaches.

Matt. 4: 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And again;

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

This is not taught in modern religions, but it was most certainly taught by Paul. The Pharisees were still requiring the "works of the Law" of the old priesthood, before Sins were forgiven. Paul rebukes the Galatians for listening to the mainstream preachers of that time.

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Did you receive forgiveness because you brought a goat to the Levite Priest? Or because you came to God with a repentant heart, and HE gave you to Jesus.

These things are important foundational truths of the Scriptures. Accepting them is important.

BrotherJJ · Mar 29, 2023

Studyman said:
No. It is important to understand what "works" were required to provide for the forgiveness of sin after the golden calf. It was required to bring a sin offering to the Priest of God. This was the "Old Covenant". The New covenant, which was the change of the Priesthood, still requires that we bring to the Priest of God a sin offering, only not an animal, rather, "Repentance" from the heart. The New Covenant is the Christ telling men to "Go and Transgress no more" and the promise of help in that endeavor. Striving against SIN is a requirement today, as it was for Abraham. It was supposed to be that way in the Exodus as well, but the Priest's corrupted the Priesthood Covenant God "ADDED" because Israel Transgressed.

Rom 10: (Amplified Bible)
1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for Israel is for their salvation.

2 For I testify about them that they have a certain enthusiasm for God, but not in accordance with [correct and vital] knowledge [about Him and His purposes].

3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and seeking to establish their own [righteousness based on works], they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

(Highlighting 1-3; Context Israel/Mosaic law adherent were; by trying to earn righteousness thru self-works (still happening today) missing the truth. The truth is: righteous is accessed by FAITH, not self-works!)

4 For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior].

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law [with all its intricate demands] shall live by it.
(Highlighting 4-5; Christ's sin sacrifice fulfilled the law's required/demanded wage for sin. Righteousness is accessed by FAITH in HIM & HIS WORK! The law exposed sin & demanded it's wage. Live by the law (nobody can! break 1 EVER! u break them all) die by it's mandates.)

Rom 10:4 (King James Bible)
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

KJV; Say's the same thing as the APM version. Live by the law, die by the law. Righteousness/justification/salvation are accessed by FAITH & FAITH alone. Found in Jesus death, burial & resurrection!

Studyman · Mar 30, 2023

BrotherJJ said:
Rom 10: (Amplified Bible)
1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for Israel is for their salvation.

2 For I testify about them that they have a certain enthusiasm for God, but not in accordance with [correct and vital] knowledge [about Him and His purposes].

3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and seeking to establish their own [righteousness based on works], they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

(Highlighting 1-3; Context Israel/Mosaic law adherent were; by trying to earn righteousness thru self-works (still happening today) missing the truth. The truth is: righteous is accessed by FAITH, not self-works!)

True, the Pharisees were children of the devil, who taught for doctrines the commandment of men, and laid aside the commandment of God so that they could justify their own lawless religious traditions. (still happening today)

They didn't believe in the Oracles of God, they didn't believe Moses, and they had persecuted members of God's Church for centuries.

So yes, a religion who creates their own image of God after the likeness of men, creates their own high days and their own sabbaths. Who regard many of God's Judgments as beneath them, and unworthy of their respect and honor, are, as Paul says "ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Paul warns the Body of Christ about these religious men. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

These religions of this world who do these things, engage in "Self Works".

But Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the wise men, had true Faith in God, "AND" His Son, the Rock of Israel. And as a result of this Faith, they knew the Christ even before HE was born, while the disobedient Pharisees didn't. It seems prudent to include this important Biblical fact that all examples of faith in the Bible, "Yielded themselves servant to obey God". They followed the Christ's instruction to us, "Seek ye First the Kingdom of God and "HIS" Righteousness".

His Righteousness is "HIS" Work, not mine. Paul said to the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile " we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Like Zacharias and Simeon, not the Pharisees.

The deceiver would have us believe that it is somehow "bad" to strive against sin, or "keep the Commandments". It, disguised as an apostle of Christ, promotes the insidious falsehood that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God. The Christ of the Bible knew this was coming and inspired some Words of warning.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Of course this is speaking of God's Righteousness, not mans.

BrotherJJ said:
4 For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior].

We need look no further than Jesus to see how a man of God walks. And we need no other Priest to provide for the atonement of our sin, but Jesus. He is truly the intent of the Law for righteousness. Paul says the same thing to Timothy.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It worked for Jesus and the faithful in the Scriptures.

1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Because HE is the end of the Law for Righteousness.

BrotherJJ said:
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law [with all its intricate demands] shall live by it.

All have transgressed God's commandments, AKA "Sinned", yes? How was sin atoned for in Moses time? A person was "made righteous" AKA, had his sins forgiven, by taking a goat to the Levite Priest. But the blood of animals did not take away sins. So those who rely on these "works of the law" for forgiveness of their sins, are cursed.

So we no longer partake of these sacrificial "works" for justification. But we are still told to "Yield ourselves servant to obey God". As Paul also tells us.

Rom. 2: 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the "doers" of the law (men of faith) shall be justified.

The deceiver would have us believe, as it convinced Eve, that we can reject, disrespect and dishonor God and His Judgments, and still be "eternally secure" or as the serpent said "thou shall surely not die". Don't be deceived, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Therefore, as it is also written "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

BrotherJJ said:
(Highlighting 4-5; Christ's sin sacrifice fulfilled the law's required/demanded wage for sin. Righteousness is accessed by FAITH in HIM & HIS WORK! The law exposed sin & demanded it's wage. Live by the law (nobody can! break 1 EVER! u break them all) die by it's mandates.)

You keep omitting a very important part of the Gospel of the Christ of the Bible. WE have already sinned. We are already dead and have died by its mandates. Now Jesus took this death upon us, not by the old priesthood "Works of the law" where those who sinned were to take a goat to the Levite Priest. But the New Priesthood where we come to the Christ with repentance from the heart. This is what Paul taught both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

This is what Jesus also taught. "11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Just as he taught the young ruler. "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (AKA "walk even as He walked", "Go and sin no more", "These ye ought to have done, and not left the other undone"

BrotherJJ said:
Rom 10:4 (King James Bible)
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

KJV; Say's the same thing as the APM version. Live by the law, die by the law. Righteousness/justification/salvation are accessed by FAITH & FAITH alone. Found in Jesus death, burial & resurrection!

Jesus said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Religious men of this world preach that Jesus walks for us, repents for us, does everything for us, and we are to have faith in that religious philosophy.

But when a person actually reads the scriptures for themselves, they find out this popular religious philosophy is a deception, and that Jesus, nor Paul teaches any such thing.

Rom. 2: 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Jesus said "many" would call Him Lord, but wouldn't believe in Him, that is, the Jesus of the Bible.

BrotherJJ · Mar 30, 2023

Studyman said:
True, the Pharisees were children of the devil, who taught for doctrines the commandment of men, and laid aside the commandment of God so that they could justify their own lawless religious traditions. (still happening today)

Studyman said:
I'll repost this:

Rom 10: (Amplified Bible)
1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for Israel is for their salvation.

2 For I testify about them that they have a certain enthusiasm for God, but not in accordance with [correct and vital] knowledge [about Him and His purposes].

3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and seeking to establish their own [righteousness based on works], they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

4 For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior].

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law [with all its intricate demands] shall live by it.

Rom 10:4 (King James Bible)
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

These verses that you argue with (you're free to) are 100% C&P Bible verses. You're free to disagree & try to add all the unrelated verses you like. In an attempt to change them. I'll leave it at we disagree. Best wishes, JJ

BrotherJJ · Apr 2, 2023

This thread began with Gal chapter 3 & has since shared a plethora of salvation by FAITH alone scriptures. Sadly the same group of Mosaic law promoters have come to hijack the freedom Christ brought to every believer.

Fundamentally, God's law is just, BUT, they can't justify anyone. God's law is flawlessly holy, BUT, can't make anyone holy. His law is righteous, BUT, can't make anyone righteous.

If the law can't make us holy, righteous or justified & condemns the sinner without mercy to death. And was to be preached UNTIL Christ's arrival (Gal 3:19).

Why, are so many people tenaciously driven. To place today's NT believers under the yoke of it's condemnation?

It's past time believers disconnect themselves from the punitive yoke of guilt & condemnation it demands & imputes. When we make our main focus on self-works, not Christ's.

Our pathway to complete remission/pardon from sin is: Found/accessed (Rom 5:1-2) only by FAITH placed in Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection.

The contrast between law & faith involves death & curses levied by the law. By attempting to establish an acceptable relationship with God based on their own human works. Those who trust their own works of keeping the law, place themselves under it's condemning required punishments.

Those who choose to place themselves under OT ordinance via human performance. Must accomplish "everything" the law commands (impossible).

Performance short of ALL that the law demands, is unacceptable. Those who violate any portion (Ja 2:10) of the law's demands deserve all the judgment that Jesus took on the cross.

Living by self-works in law keeping isn't living by faith. Without FAITH it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).

This gracious provision of salvation through Faith is our abundant hope.

Tit 3:5 ""Not by works of righteousness which we have done"", ""but according to his mercy he saved us"", by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, & called us with an holy calling, ""not according to our works"" but ""according to his own purpose and grace"", which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

expos4ever · Apr 10, 2023

Soyeong said:
According to Romans 6:19-23, obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life.

Romans 6:19-23 does not even mention the Law of Moses (assuming this is what you mean by "God's Law".

expos4ever · Apr 10, 2023

Soyeong said:
In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit,....

Here is the text:

And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

There is nothing here that requires us to believe that obedience to the Law of Moses is what is meant by "obedience" - you appear to impose that inference on the text.

Davy · Apr 14, 2023

BrotherJJ said:
Faith brings/accesses righteousness

Gal 3:
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
(MY NOTE: Abraham put his FAITH in God & God declared Him righteous).

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
(MY NOTE: God justifies the gentiles/heathen through faith)

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(MY NOTE: The curse of the law, that we're redeemed from is: Death & all the penalties levied for sinning. (See Deut 28)

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(MY NOTE: Gentiles receive the covenant promise blessing made to Abraham, "righteousness imputed thru faith". Received void of Mosaic law adherence (Rom 3:28)

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(MY NOTE: Abraham's covenant promise is made 430 yrs before the Mosaic/LAW covenant. The Mosaic LAW covenant didn't/doesn't, annual/replace, the FAITH covenant promise God made to Abraham)

The intent of the law:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(MY NOTE: The Law was ADDED, to expose, condemn & declare the penalties levied for transgressions/SIN. The law was in effect, [time sensitive word >] ""Until""" the promised seed [Christ's Holy Spirit] should come. For Christ is the end of keeping laws to obtain a right standing before God/righteousness. Righteousness/a right standing before God is now obtained thru faith)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(MY NOTE: Righteousness/a right standing before God is given by/thru Faith, void of any law keeping)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(MY NOTE: All are sinners & deserve the laws just penalty/DEATH. But, thru the "Faith OF Christ" & His finished sin atoning work. Those that trust/believe/have FAITH in Him & His work. It's this FAITH whereby Christ (takes ALL the believers sins, imputes them onto Himself) & imputes His righteousness onto the believer placing them in a right standing with the Father)

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(MY NOTE Before [< time sensitive word] faith/Christ came & paid sins wage/price. Everyone was under ALL the curses/punishments/judgments levied [Deut 28] for sin)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(MY NOTE: The law exposes sin & teaches us God's rules. It's faith in Christ's finished sin atoning work whereby the believer is saved/justified/placed in a sinless/right standing [Christ bought & paid for every sin judgement the law requires] with/before the Father.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(MY NOTE: Believers do not obtain a right standing before God thru law keeping/good works)

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
(MY NOTE: It's the believers faith in Christ's finish sin atoning work that places them in a right standing before God)

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(MY NOTE: Every Holy Spirit indwelt [received by/thru FAITH] believer is placed in a right standing with the Father)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Gen 15 Abrahamic covenant promise:

Vs 6 the righteousness by faith promise
Vs 12, Abram is sleeping
Vs 17, The Lord Himself/alone passes through the pieces
Vs 18, That day Lord make's a covenant with Abram.

This Genesis covenant promise was 100% the Lord's work. Based on Abram's faith that God was able to keep/do it. Gen 22:16 (A) By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD.

The new testament/covenant post cross salvation (Christ's baptism/sealing with His Holy Spirit) is a free gift given via faith in the merits/work/sin payment & resurrection of Christ. Again this covenant is invoked & maintained 100% via the Lord's work.

Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). This redemption is accessed via FAITH (Ron 5:1-2)

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a "better covenant" which was established upon "better promises"
(MY NOTE: Christ Mediates A BETTER Covenant, Established Upon BETTER Promises).

Christ is BETTER then angels, because they worship the Christ. BETTER then Moses, because He created Him. BETTER then the Aaronic priesthood, because Christ's sin sacrifice is once for all time. BETTER then the law, because Christ mediates a BETTER, faith based covenant.

Righteous by works of the law has been replaced by "faith"

Gal 3:
19 Why, then, the Law [what was its purpose]? It was added [after the promise to Abraham, to reveal to people their guilt] because of transgressions [that is, to make people conscious of the sinfulness of sin], and [the Law] was ordained through angels and delivered to Israel by the hand of a mediator [Moses, the mediator between God and Israel, to be in effect] until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everyone [everything—the entire world] under sin, so that [the inheritance, the blessing of salvation] which was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe [in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s precious Son].

23 Now before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, [perpetually] imprisoned [in preparation] for the faith that was destined to be revealed

24 with the result that the Law has become our tutor and our disciplinarian to guide us to Christ, so that we may be [c]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] by faith.

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under [the control and authority of] a tutor and disciplinarian
Posted Gal 3:19-25 verses found here: Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 3 - Amplified Bible

Recap:
Vs 19 The Law was in effect UNTIL Christ came, Vs 23 the law was in effect UNTIL "faith" arrived, Vs 24 The law was our sin disciplinarian/teacher, Vs 25 But now that "faith" has come, we are no longer under the control & authority of] this teacher/disciplinarian.

Justification by Faith

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets. 22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior].

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 10 - Amplified Bible

The Word of Faith Brings Salvation - Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for Israel is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a certain enthusiasm for God, but not in accordance with [correct and vital] knowledge [about Him and His purposes]. For...

www.biblegateway.com

(MY NOTE: By fulfilling the OT law's requirement. Christ brought it's function/purpose to an END/conclusion. The NT requirement to obtain righteousness that God has implemented is: Place your "Faith" in the Faithful/obedient (Rom 5:19) finished sin atoning work of Christ. Found in Hs death (sins required wage Paid), burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father's receipt, sins payment received & accepted)

All power, praise, glory & honor, belong to out great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ! AMEM & Amen...

Pretty good! AMEN.

Davy · Apr 14, 2023

Clare73 said:
Well done. . .

A few important comments:

Abraham believed in the promise (Ge 15:5 - seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) and God credited (imputed) it to him as righteousness (Ge 15:6).

We are redeemed from eternal death for the condemnation into which we are born because of Adam (Ro 5:18),
by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), from which wrath Jesus saves (Ro 5:9) by faith.

Actually the blessing to Abraham was the promise of the Spirit (Eph 1:13, Ac 2:33, Ac 2:39).
Abraham's righteousness is not stated as a promise, it is stated as a declaration regarding Abraham (Ge 15:6).

Sorry, but I think what you're saying needs more clarity...

Rom 4:13
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
KJV

The Promise by Faith that God gave to Abraham was The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what Paul was pointing to involving Abraham's Faith. And per the end of John 8, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, and was glad, which points to Abraham having known about The Gospel Salvation Plan for all peoples.

Gal 3:7-8
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
KJV

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Paul's last statement there in Galatians 3:29 confirms that ALL those who believe on Jesus Christ are joint-heirs WITH Abraham making that a part of The Gospel Promise by Faith. Having Faith on The Promise is one thing, inheritance and the blessings to Abraham included with it is another.

Some may try... to argue against that idea of Christ's Church being joint-inheritors with the blessings to Abraham, but that is exactly how the prophets show it; they just didn't use words like 'church' to reveal it. When the British preacher John Darby came along preaching a pre-trib rapture and his dispensationalism in 1830's Britain, he tried to change those prophecies about the inheritance of Christ's Church with the promises God gave to Abraham and his seed. Darby instead taught falsely that when Jesus returns, He will re-establish the nation of Israel back to the lands of promise on earth, but His Church will rule with Him off the earth, in Heaven. That is not what God's Word, nor the prophets teach, at all.

So the idea of Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ was not only about receiving The Holy Spirit. It includes ALL the blessings God gave to Abraham and his seed after him also. And Apostle Paul says this another way in Ephesians 2...

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

In direct words then, Paul is saying that IF... you as a Gentile are in Christ Jesus, then you are now in that "commonwealth of Israel", and in "the covenants of promise".

How did history work out per all this:
(This is the part most don't ever hear in Church, because the seminaries think it's too controversial, and they are afraid it might offend the Jews.)

The blessings God gave to Abraham along with The Gospel Promise by Faith, involved inheritance of the land, the earth's best resources, plenty of grain and wine, control of the gates of one's enemies, and a seed out of his loins as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea. Those blessings is what is known as God's Birthright. And that Birthright continued to Abraham's son Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and finally upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh which Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations" (see Genesis 48; 1 Chronicles 5).

That "multitude of nations" prophecy (Gen.48) was fulfilled when Christ Jesus The Gospel was received by the nations of Asia Minor and Europe, creating the historical Christian nations of history. That is where God's Birthright was moved to, including the king line that was promised to the tribe of Judah (1 Chron.5). This is why we find the blessings originally given to Abraham and Israel in the Christian west, and not in the middle east. The best land resources are in the western parts of the earth, the greatest producers of grain and wine have historically been in the western nations, controlling the gate of one's enemies (greatest military and navy), and secretly, the spreading out of the 12 tribes of Israel into a great number of people as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, and I don't mean just the 3-tribe "house of Judah" that call themselves Jews. The majority of the seed of Israel, the ten northern tribes, never were called Jews, and they were lost when God scattered them. Not even the Jews today know where they, but God promised to gather them in final per Amos 9:9.

Now per 1 Kings 11, God said He would always leave "one tribe" at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That represents the tribe of Judah (and those who sided with them, tribes of Benjamin and Levi and strangers with them). Those were called the "house of Judah" in God's Word, and that is who the nation state of Israel in the holy land today still represent, the "house of Judah". The king line ended there in the days of Jeremiah, along with destruction of the 2nd temple. To this day, for the orthodox Jews, Jerusalem is still in a state of spiritual degradation, being without a temple. They do well in defending theirselves, but even with the previous wars they had to have help from the western nations, whereas the western Christian nations have NEVER been defeated by any foreign foe, and still out-produces more resources and wealth than the state of Israel.

So when speaking of God's blessings to Abraham and his seed, one must look to history to discover that part.

Clare73 · Apr 14, 2023

Davy said:
Sorry, but I think what you're saying needs more clarity...

Rom 4:13
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
KJV

The Promise by Faith that God gave to Abraham was The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The promise God gave to Abraham in which his belief was credited as righteousness was seed (Ge 5:15, Christ, Gal 3:16).

Davy said:
That is what Paul was pointing to involving Abraham's Faith. And per the end of John 8, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, and was glad, which points to Abraham having known about The Gospel Salvation Plan for all peoples.

Abraham saw Christ in the promise of Isaac. . .as he saw heaven in the promise of Canaan (Heb 11:13-16).

Davy said:
Gal 3:7-8
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
KJV
Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Paul's last statement there in Galatians 3:29 confirms that ALL those who believe on Jesus Christ are joint-heirs WITH Abraham

No, they are joint heirs with Christ in the promises to Abraham; i.e., those in Christ are the seed of Abraham, as Christ is, and inherit the promises to Abraham in Christ.

Davy said:
making that a part of The Gospel Promise by Faith. Having Faith on The Promise is one thing, inheritance and the blessings to Abraham included with it is another.

Faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) was credited to Abraham as righteousness (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).

Davy said:
Some may try... to argue against that idea of Christ's Church being joint-inheritors with the blessings to Abraham, but that is exactly how the prophets show it; they just didn't use words like 'church' to reveal it. When the British preacher John Darby came along preaching a pre-trib rapture and his dispensationalism in 1830's Britain, he tried to change those prophecies about the inheritance of Christ's Church with the promises God gave to Abraham and his seed. Darby instead taught falsely that when Jesus returns, He will re-establish the nation of Israel back to the lands of promise on earth, but His Church will rule with Him off the earth, in Heaven. That is not what God's Word, nor the prophets teach, at all.

Agreed, false teaching.

Davy said:
So the idea of Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ was not only about receiving The Holy Spirit. It includes ALL the blessings God gave to Abraham and his seed after him also. And Apostle Paul says this another way in Ephesians 2...

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV
In direct words then, Paul is saying that IF... you as a Gentile are in Christ Jesus, then you are now in that "commonwealth of Israel", and in "the covenants of promise".
How did history work out per all this:
(This is the part most don't ever hear in Church, because the seminaries think it's too controversial, and they are afraid it might offend the Jews.)

The blessings God gave to Abraham along with The Gospel Promise by Faith, involved inheritance of the land,

The land being Canaan. . .as an everlasting possession (Ge 17:8).

Davy said:
the earth's best resources, plenty of grain and wine, control of the gates of one's enemies, and a seed out of his loins as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea. Those blessings is what is known as God's Birthright. And that Birthright continued to Abraham's son Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and finally upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh which Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations" (see Genesis 48; 1 Chronicles 5).

That promise is to Abraham and the Seed, Christ (Gal 3:16).

Davy said:
That "multitude of nations" prophecy (Gen.48) was fulfilled when Christ Jesus The Gospel was received by the nations of Asia Minor and Europe, creating the historical Christian nations of history. That is where God's Birthright was moved to, including the king line that was promised to the tribe of Judah (1 Chron.5). This is why we find the blessings originally given to Abraham and Israel in the Christian west, and not in the middle east. The best land resources are in the western parts of the earth, the greatest producers of grain and wine have historically been in the western nations, controlling the gate of one's enemies (greatest military and navy), and secretly, the spreading out of the 12 tribes of Israel into a great number of people as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, and I don't mean just the 3-tribe "house of Judah" that call themselves Jews. The majority of the seed of Israel, the ten northern tribes, never were called Jews, and they were lost when God scattered them. Not even the Jews today know where they, but God promised to gather them in final per Amos 9:9.

Now per 1 Kings 11, God said He would always leave "one tribe" at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That represents the tribe of Judah (and those who sided with them, tribes of Benjamin and Levi and strangers with them). Those were called the "house of Judah" in God's Word, and that is who the nation state of Israel in the holy land today still represent, the "house of Judah". The king line ended there in the days of Jeremiah, along with destruction of the 2nd temple. To this day, for the orthodox Jews, Jerusalem is still in a state of spiritual degradation, being without a temple. They do well in defending theirselves, but even with the previous wars they had to have help from the western nations, whereas the western Christian nations have NEVER been defeated by any foreign foe, and still out-produces more resources and wealth than the state of Israel.

So when speaking of God's blessings to Abraham and his seed, one must look to history to discover that part.

The blessings/promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed; i.e., Christ (Gal 3:16) and are inherited in Christ (Gal 3:29).

Soyeong · Apr 14, 2023

expos4ever said:
Here is the text:

And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

There is nothing here that requires us to believe that obedience to the Law of Moses is what is meant by "obedience" - you appear to impose that inference on the text.

All I used Acts 5:32 to says is that obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, though they are a number of verses that connect obedience to the Mosaic Law with walking in the Spirit, such as Ezekiel 36:26-27. In Acts 5:27, they were speaking to the High Priest before the Sanhedrin, so in that context I don't see any grounds for questioning whether Acts 5:32 refers to the Law of Moses, especially because there is no way that Gamaliel would have defended them in Acts 5:33-39 by saying that by opposing them they might be opposing God if obeying God in Acts 5:32 were opposing obeying God in regard to the Law of Moses.

expos4ever said:
Romans 6:19-23 does not even mention the Law of Moses (assuming this is what you mean by "God's Law".

In Romans 3:20, the Mosaic Law is how we know what sin is, so everything that Romans 6 says in favor of obedience to God and against impurity, lawlessness, and sin is in favor of obeying the Mosaic Law.

Davy · Apr 14, 2023

Clare73 said:
The promise God gave to Abraham in which his belief was credited as righteousness was seed (Ge 5:15, Christ, Gal 316).

Nope, absolutely not! Not according to Apostle Paul...

Gal 3:6-8
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
KJV

The "heathen" (i.e., Gentiles) justified by Abraham's seed?? NO! of course not, but that is what you are trying to infer, which is terrible error. Abraham's Faith is about Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ, as that... is HOW the "heathen" are justified by FAITH. That is what Abraham's Faith on the Promise God first gave him is about, and is why righteousness was imputed to Abraham. THAT... is the subject in the above.

Rom 4:3-9
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

If by works, then reward is reckoned by debt, and not by grace. The Promise by Faith is about God's free gift through His Grace accepted by Faith of those who believe. That is exactly what Abraham's Faith represents, and for our Faith also on Christ Jesus.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

There it is. One who 'believes' on Him That justifies the sinner by Faith, his Faith is counted for righteousness. And Abraham represented the first by that Faith.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Paul also quotes David about God's forgiveness of the sinner not involving debt, but by His Grace (Ps.32).

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
KJV

Clare73 · Apr 14, 2023

Davy said:
Nope, absolutely not! Not according to Apostle Paul...
Gal 3:6-8
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. KJV

Review the promise (Ge 15:5-6).

Your issue is not with me.

Davy said:
The "heathen" (i.e., Gentiles) justified by Abraham's seed?? NO! of course not, but that is what you are trying to infer, which is terrible error. Abraham's Faith is about Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ, as that... is HOW the "heathen" are justified by FAITH. That is what Abraham's Faith on the Promise God first gave him is about, and is why righteousness was imputed to Abraham. THAT... is the subject in the above.

Rom 4:3-9
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

If by works, then reward is reckoned by debt, and not by grace. The Promise by Faith is about God's free gift through His Grace accepted by Faith of those who believe. That is exactly what Abraham's Faith represents, and for our Faith also on Christ Jesus.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

There it is. One who 'believes' on Him That justifies the sinner by Faith, his Faith is counted for righteousness. And Abraham represented the first by that Faith.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Paul also quotes David about God's forgiveness of the sinner not involving debt, but by His Grace (Ps.32).

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
KJV

Davy · Apr 14, 2023

Clare73 said:
Review the promise (Ge 15:5-6).

Your issue is not with me.

What Abraham believed was the Promise by Faith, which is what Apostle Paul showed in Romans 4 and Galatians 3, and that INCLUDED FAITH BY THE GENTILES, which is why God said He made Abraham a father of many nations. The Gospel Faith is tied to that IDEA OF SPIRITUAL SEED.

But what I understand you're trying to say is that Abraham's Faith only represents his belief that God would bless Abraham's literal seed ONLY. That is error, and is completely against what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.

This specifically is what you are fighting against...

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

Clare73 · Apr 15, 2023

Davy said:
What Abraham believed was the Promise by Faith,

Grammar matters. . .The text states that "Abraham believed the promise" (that his seed would be as numerous as the stars). Ge 15:5-6
"By faith" is redundant (belief is faith), nor is it the wording of the text.

Davy said:
which is what Apostle Paul showed in Romans 4 and Galatians 3, and that INCLUDED FAITH BY THE GENTILES, which is why God said He made Abraham a father of many nations. The Gospel Faith is tied to that IDEA OF SPIRITUAL SEED.

It seems you are overlooking Gal 3:16, a very important statement.

The promises to Abraham's seed were spoken to only one seed, Christ (Gal 3:16).

Gal 3:29 states that all those in Christ, including Gentiles, are the seed of Abraham as is Christ (singular seed to whom the promises were made, Gal 3:16) and inherit the promises to Abraham in Christ.

"Gospel faith is tied to that seed" only in the sense that such faith places you in Christ, the singular seed of Abraham to whom the promises were made (Gal 3:16) and which promises we Gentiles inherit.

Davy said:
But what I understand you're trying to say is that Abraham's Faith only represents his belief that God would bless Abraham's literal seed ONLY. That is error, and is completely against what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.This specifically is what you are fighting against...

I am insisting on the grammar of Ge 15:5-6, which is not that Abraham's seed would be blessed, but that Abraham would have seed as numerous as the stars.

Davy said:
Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

Yes, the Abrahamic Covenant contained the gospel, "all nations will be blessed through you," by faith in Christ, the singular seed to whom the promises to Abraham were made (Gal 3:16).

Davy · Apr 15, 2023

Clare73 said:
Grammar matters. . .The text states that "Abraham believed the promise" (that his seed would be as numerous as the stars). Ge 15:5-6
"By faith" is redundant (belief is faith), nor is it the wording of the text.

It seems you are overlooking Gal 3:16, a very important statement.

The promises to Abraham's seed were spoken to only one seed, Christ (Gal 3:16).

Gal 3:29 states that all those in Christ, including Gentiles, are the seed of Abraham as is Christ (singular seed to whom the promises were made, Gal 3:16) and inherit the promises to Abraham in Christ.

"Gospel faith is tied to that seed" only in the sense that such faith places you in Christ, the singular seed of Abraham to whom the promises were made (Gal 3:16) and which promises we Gentiles inherit.

I am insisting on the grammar of Ge 15:5-6, which is not that Abraham's seed would be blessed, but that Abraham would have seed as numerous as the stars.

Yes, the Abrahamic Covenant contained the gospel, "all nations will be blessed through you," by faith in Christ, the singular seed to whom the promises to Abraham were made (Gal 3:16).

Sorry, I refuse to listen to your attempts to twist Paul's coverage of The Gospel that was preached to Abraham and his Faith representing the SAME Faith the Gentiles have on Christ Jesus into some literal 'seed' philosophy.

Clare73 · Apr 15, 2023

Davy said:
Sorry, I refuse to listen to your attempts to twist Paul's coverage of The Gospel that was preached to Abraham and his Faith representing the SAME Faith the Gentiles have on Christ Jesus into some literal 'seed' philosophy.

Somewhat less than a Biblical demonstration of my error.

Studyman · Apr 19, 2023

expos4ever said:
Romans 6:19-23 does not even mention the Law of Moses (assuming this is what you mean by "God's Law".

Wasn't it God, the Same God of Abraham, the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, that gave Moses HIS LAWS to give to the people?

In Matt. 19 the Jesus of the Bible was asked, "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

The Same Jesus of the Bible replied; "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I would say that this Jesus would be the one know, and I have no reason to doubt HIS authority in this matter, especially given the HE, as the Rock of Israel, "where HE was before", taught the same thing. But the man, just to make sure, asked Jesus "Which Commandments"? Which question is also implied in your statement above.

He saith unto him, Which?

And this same Jesus, the ONE which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures, answered.

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He didn't mention "Love thy God with all thine heart", or to use just Judgment, and don't regard the rich as better than the poor, as well as other important matters of the Law God gave to Moses, like matters of Mercy, Faith, and Judgment. But I believe they were implied?

Surely Paul learned Truth through this Same Jesus, who is the Same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Clare73 · Apr 19, 2023

Studyman said:
Wasn't it God, the Same God of Abraham, the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, that gave Moses HIS LAWS to give to the people?

In the NT "the Lord" is Christ.

Studyman said:
In Matt. 19 the Jesus of the Bible was asked, "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

The Same Jesus of the Bible replied; "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I would say that this Jesus would be the one know, and I have no reason to doubt HIS authority in this matter, especially given the HE, as the Rock of Israel, "where HE was before", taught the same thing. But the man, just to make sure, asked Jesus "Which Commandments"? Which question is also implied in your statement above.

He saith unto him, Which?

And this same Jesus, the ONE which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures, answered.

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He didn't mention "Love thy God with all thine heart", or to use just Judgment, and don't regard the rich as better than the poor, as well as other important matters of the Law God gave to Moses, like matters of Mercy, Faith, and Judgment. But I believe they were implied?

Surely Paul learned Truth through this Same Jesus, who is the Same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

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