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Fundamentalism Project

christalee4

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I found this article on another forum, called "The Fundamentalist Agenda", written by a Unitarian Universalist minister. It's well written, and focuses on the commonalities of fundamentalism in religions, vs. the liberal agenda.

http://www.uuworld.org/2004/01/feature2.html

Quote: "
But there are far more fundamental things to understand about fundamentalism, especially in this age of terrorism. An adequate understanding also includes some inescapable and uncomfortable critiques of America's cultural liberalism of the last four decades. The attacks on September 11, 2001, provided us a rare revelation about fundamentalism that arrived in two installments.

First, we became vividly aware of the things some Muslim fundamentalists hate about our culture:

  • They hate liberated women and all that symbolizes them. They hate it when women compete with men in the workplace, when they decide when or whether they will bear children, when they show the independence of getting abortions. They hate changes in laws that previously gave men more power over women.
  • They hate the wide range of sexual orientations and lifestyles that have always characterized human societies. They hate homosexuality.
  • They hate individual freedoms that allow people to stray from the rigid sort of truth they want to constrain all people. They hate individual rights that let others slough off their simple certainties.
Not much was really new in this installment of the revelation. We had seen all this before, when Khomeini's Muslim fundamentalists wreaked such havoc in Iran starting in 1979. We have long known that Muslim fundamentalism is a mortal enemy of freedom and democracy.

The surprise second installment came just a few days after 9 / 11 in that remarkably unguarded interview on The 700 Club when the Rev. Jerry Falwell told Pat Robertson, “I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way—all of them who have tried to secularize America—I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'” These men are so media-savvy it's amazing they would say such things on the air. But it's also remarkable because in their list of “causes” of the 9 / 11 attacks, we heard almost exactly the same hate list:

  • They hate liberated women who don't follow orders, who get abortions when they want them, who threaten or laugh at some men's arrogant pretensions to rule them.
  • They hate the wide range of sexual orientations that have always characterized human societies. They would force the country to conform to a fantasy image of two married heterosexual parents where the husband works and the wife stays home with the children—even when that describes fewer than 25 percent of current American families.
  • They hate individual freedoms that let people stray from the one simple set of truths they want imposed on all in our country. Robertson has been on record for a long time saying that democracy isn't a fit form of government unless it is run by his kind of fundamentalist Christians.
Together, the two installments make vivid the fact that “our” Christian fundamentalists have the same hate list as “their” Muslim fundamentalists. "

I would also venture to say that in the Hindu religion and culture, fundamentalism in some aspects places women "behind" the men socially; they are seen as a weaker vessel.

Before you jump down my throat, the article does posit weaknesses in the liberal agenda, which I also agree with. But most of all, what the article is trying to do is to establish that fundamentalism as a rule seeks to limit natural behaviors of personality and sexuality (and I am not talking about crime) while at the same time permit a natural selection to take place that displaces those who cannot compete in a social Darwinistic world of dog eat dog.

Based on the previous discussions of the main commonalities of fundamentalisms, regardless of faith, such as being against women being socially and economically on the same level as men, being against homosexuality, being against other religions being practiced in a said society, is fundamentalism a viable societal goal, knowing that the "cat is out of the bag", so to speak?

Do supporters of a Christian fundamentalist government feel that their ideal government should model after say, the Saudi or Iranian style of theocratic government, in which women cannot vote, are limited to where they can work, cannot drive, are penalized for adultery, etc.?

If you feel, for example, that in a potential Christian government, that abortion should be outlawed, as well as homosexuality and adultery, like in Saudi Arabia, should womens' roles be limited too, to foment a more stable, family-based society? Please express yourself plainly, honestly with practical examples.
 

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christalee4 said:
I found this article on another forum, called "The Fundamentalist Agenda", written by a Unitarian Universalist minister. It's well written, and focuses on the commonalities of fundamentalism in religions, vs. the liberal agenda.

http://www.uuworld.org/2004/01/feature2.html

<Snip>
That was a good article.
 
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tocis

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To be metaphorical for a moment...

(Warning - cynism ahead!)

Both "Praise the Lord!" and "Allahu akbar!" (sp? Muslim readers please correct me in case of mistakes) are basically just religious terms... but the more fanatical the one using them becomes, the more these terms sound suspiciously - and frighteningly - similar to "Heil Hitler!". :help:
 
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Voegelin

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christalee4 said:
Do supporters of a Christian fundamentalist government...

No one I know or have read supports that.

There is no valid comparison between radical Islam and fundamentalist Christianity. I was raised Congregationalist and Unitarian/Universalist. That someone in the UU is putting out such inflammatory articles is distressing. Have relatives in UU associations. They would never countenance such writing.
 
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christalee4

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Voegelin said:
No one I know or have read supports that.

There is no valid comparison between radical Islam and fundamentalist Christianity. I was raised Congregationalist and Unitarian/Universalist. That someone in the UU is putting out such inflammatory articles is distressing. Have relatives in UU associations. They would never countenance such writing.

What about Christian Reconstructionism, the Constitution Party, or Taxpayers Party, for starters? Not to mention more mainstream organizations, such as the Providence Foundation, Wallbuilders, etc., that seek to "bring back Christian heritage" into our government?

The Fundamentalist Project was a careful study by scholars that explored fundamentalism in the major religions, and found glaring similarities, as described in the article. The main similarities are:

- Aversion to, or in the case of existing theocratic government, criminalizing abortion, homosexual behavior, adultery, sex outside of marriage.
- Subscribing to the belief that women are to remain in the home and raise children, not work unless only in fields serving other women.
- Subscribing to the belief that women are the weaker sex and also must submit to male authority.
- Abiding by strict codes of modesty, dress, conduct, as interpreted by the fundamentalist religion, including limitation on media, books, and entertainment.
- All other religious belief severely limited or outlawed in the society.

The issue of the women's place in the family and society is a major one for fundamentalists of all religions. Women's emancipation in the United States changed their roles dramatically in the 20th century; now more than half of women work in this country, divorce is prevalent, and women are firmly entrenched in the economy. In countries such as Saudi Arabia, where women cannot currently vote, small steps towards towards a movement of democracy are being taken.

My question was, that since "the cat is out of the bag", so to speak, how does fundamentalism turn the tides against the progression of democracy and liberal thinking?
 
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Chrysalis Kat

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christalee4 said:
My question was, that since "the cat is out of the bag", so to speak, how does fundamentalism turn the tides against the progression of democracy and liberal thinking?
Did somebody mention cats?;)
Here's some info that might help answer your questions.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/relig_inst.htm
 
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christalee4 said:
My question was, that since "the cat is out of the bag", so to speak, how does fundamentalism turn the tides against the progression of democracy and liberal thinking?

By joining forces with, and then dominating the poor and ignorant. Get the poor and ignorant to think they are on the same side, and make them think the cause of their problems are some enemy. Liberals, Jews, homosexuals, feminists, secular humanists are good enemies. Appeal to the baser instincts of religion, patriotism and bigotry. It has been a highly successful formula for thousands of years.
 
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JustJack!

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There is no valid comparison between radical Islam and fundamentalist Christianity. I was raised Congregationalist and Unitarian/Universalist. That someone in the UU is putting out such inflammatory articles is distressing. Have relatives in UU associations. They would never countenance such writing.


There is much in common in their idealogies. They oppose eachother for no other reason than by what names they call their Gods. But over here, our founders were smart enough to put limitations on the role of religion in the government.
 
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JustJack! said:
There is much in common in their idealogies. They oppose eachother for no other reason than by what names they call their Gods. But over here, our founders were smart enough to put limitations on the role of religion in the government.
Thank God.

/No Irony
 
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Voegelin

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christalee4 said:
how does fundamentalism turn the tides against the progression of democracy and liberal thinking?

I don't know what "progression of democracy" or "liberal thinking" means.

America is a Republic. "Liberal thinking" could mean anything so the tides turning for or against it is also without meaning.

What is going on is this: the left has been in decline for decades (Democrats had over a two to one majority in the House during Carter's term). Views traditional Christian hold are popular (look at the last 3 elections). Catholics are moving to the GOP (Bush won a majority of the Catholic vote). Younger people are neither as pro-choice nor in favor of feminism (the radical sort) the left expected.

In other words, the future is bleak for the cultural marxists, situational ethicians, moral relativists, deconstructionists, radical equalitarians, secularists and so on.

Rather than engage in debate the left knows it has lost and will continue to lose, many liberals are attempting to make all positions held by traditional Christians illegitimate.

They do this by drawing comparisions between Islamic and Christian fundamentalists, comparisions between the Taliban and Christians, by hammering over and over with the "radical-right..Christians trying to create a theocracy" rhetoric, by dredging up obscure Christian groups which have no influence in American politics and pretending they are major forces.

The tactics are lifted from Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals".
 
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christalee4

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Actually Voeg, polls show that most Americans oppose the filibustering, interference with current judicial nominees, interference in cases such as the Terri Schiavo case.


You can cite all kinds of Christian fundamentalist visions for what is best for America, but in reality, most American Christians want to keep the status quo.

My question (which you refuse to answer) is how does fundamentalism turn the social and political tide away from liberalism and towards godly government.

How do they get the women back into the home, and out of the economic workplace?




 
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Shane Roach

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christalee4 said:
Actually Voeg, polls show that most Americans oppose the filibustering, interference with current judicial nominees, interference in cases such as the Terri Schiavo case.


You can cite all kinds of Christian fundamentalist visions for what is best for America, but in reality, most American Christians want to keep the status quo.

My question (which you refuse to answer) is how does fundamentalism turn the social and political tide away from liberalism and towards godly government.

How do they get the women back into the home, and out of the economic workplace?

Fundamentalists do not need or want women "back in the home". Neither does the Bible.

[bible]proverbs 31:10-31[/bible]

God wants women to live fulfilling, productive lives. They should be able both to work in ways they find challenging and rewarding, but also to be allowed to have and raise children. The only difference between feminism's call for women to try to have it all and God's is that God's does not require women to pretend to be something they are not: men.
 
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jlujan69

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christalee4 said:
I found this article on another forum, called "The Fundamentalist Agenda", written by a Unitarian Universalist minister. It's well written, and focuses on the commonalities of fundamentalism in religions, vs. the liberal agenda.

http://www.uuworld.org/2004/01/feature2.html

Quote: "
But there are far more fundamental things to understand about fundamentalism, especially in this age of terrorism. An adequate understanding also includes some inescapable and uncomfortable critiques of America's cultural liberalism of the last four decades. The attacks on September 11, 2001, provided us a rare revelation about fundamentalism that arrived in two installments.

First, we became vividly aware of the things some Muslim fundamentalists hate about our culture:
  • They hate liberated women and all that symbolizes them. They hate it when women compete with men in the workplace, when they decide when or whether they will bear children, when they show the independence of getting abortions. They hate changes in laws that previously gave men more power over women.
  • They hate the wide range of sexual orientations and lifestyles that have always characterized human societies. They hate homosexuality.
  • They hate individual freedoms that allow people to stray from the rigid sort of truth they want to constrain all people. They hate individual rights that let others slough off their simple certainties.
Not much was really new in this installment of the revelation. We had seen all this before, when Khomeini's Muslim fundamentalists wreaked such havoc in Iran starting in 1979. We have long known that Muslim fundamentalism is a mortal enemy of freedom and democracy.

The surprise second installment came just a few days after 9 / 11 in that remarkably unguarded interview on The 700 Club when the Rev. Jerry Falwell told Pat Robertson, “I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way—all of them who have tried to secularize America—I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'” These men are so media-savvy it's amazing they would say such things on the air. But it's also remarkable because in their list of “causes” of the 9 / 11 attacks, we heard almost exactly the same hate list:
  • They hate liberated women who don't follow orders, who get abortions when they want them, who threaten or laugh at some men's arrogant pretensions to rule them.
  • They hate the wide range of sexual orientations that have always characterized human societies. They would force the country to conform to a fantasy image of two married heterosexual parents where the husband works and the wife stays home with the children—even when that describes fewer than 25 percent of current American families.
  • They hate individual freedoms that let people stray from the one simple set of truths they want imposed on all in our country. Robertson has been on record for a long time saying that democracy isn't a fit form of government unless it is run by his kind of fundamentalist Christians.
Together, the two installments make vivid the fact that “our” Christian fundamentalists have the same hate list as “their” Muslim fundamentalists. "

I would also venture to say that in the Hindu religion and culture, fundamentalism in some aspects places women "behind" the men socially; they are seen as a weaker vessel.

Before you jump down my throat, the article does posit weaknesses in the liberal agenda, which I also agree with. But most of all, what the article is trying to do is to establish that fundamentalism as a rule seeks to limit natural behaviors of personality and sexuality (and I am not talking about crime) while at the same time permit a natural selection to take place that displaces those who cannot compete in a social Darwinistic world of dog eat dog.

Based on the previous discussions of the main commonalities of fundamentalisms, regardless of faith, such as being against women being socially and economically on the same level as men, being against homosexuality, being against other religions being practiced in a said society, is fundamentalism a viable societal goal, knowing that the "cat is out of the bag", so to speak?

Do supporters of a Christian fundamentalist government feel that their ideal government should model after say, the Saudi or Iranian style of theocratic government, in which women cannot vote, are limited to where they can work, cannot drive, are penalized for adultery, etc.?

If you feel, for example, that in a potential Christian government, that abortion should be outlawed, as well as homosexuality and adultery, like in Saudi Arabia, should womens' roles be limited too, to foment a more stable, family-based society? Please express yourself plainly, honestly with practical examples.

Robertson's view is hardly unique. I recall some of the founding fathers articulating the same principle--that this republic will work only if its people are God fearing (or something to that effect).
 
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Shane Roach

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To make a long story short, the entire article and OP are nothing but slander against not only Christians, but anyone of any faith who holds more or less traditional values.

I see it as one more reason why the left is failing. More and more they find it difficult to maintain the facade of being accepting and loving of all people. They have taken on the tactics of the fascist. They demonize those with whom they have disagreements, and have no place in their world view for anyone who does not walk in lock step with their dogma.
 
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Chrysalis Kat

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Shane Roach said:
God wants women to live fulfilling, productive lives. They should be able both to work in ways they find challenging and rewarding, but also to be allowed to have and raise children. The only difference between feminism's call for women to try to have it all and God's is that God's does not require women to pretend to be something they are not: men.
I have never heard a feminist claim that women should not be allowed to have and raise children. I have heard them encourage freedom woman to do whatever they are capable of doing, be that raising children and/or something else.
Also, I have never heard a feminist encourage women to pretend to be men. Quite the contrary, they want women to all they were meant to be:women.

Can you provide any statements, quotes, speeches,articles,etc by recognized feminists that can support the claims that you have made? I do not mean support from someone claiming to be speaking for feminists, but from known feminists?
 
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Voegelin

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Shane Roach said:
To make a long story short, the entire article and OP are nothing but slander against not only Christians, but anyone of any faith who holds more or less traditional values.

I see it as one more reason why the left is failing. More and more they find it difficult to maintain the facade of being accepting and loving of all people. They have taken on the tactics of the fascist. They demonize those with whom they have disagreements, and have no place in their world view for anyone who does not walk in lock step with their dogma.

Exactly. Back when the Democratic Party was mainstream and the majority party, it spoke of faith all the time. Jimmy Carter said there was no difference between his political and religious beliefs. Father Drinan served in Congress. Stevenson quoted Jesus in his acceptance speech for the party's nomination for President. Huey Long's Senate speeches were sermons. He quoted the Bible at lenght. In 1947, Harry Truman wrote a letter to Pope Pius XII in which he said America is a Christian country. A few other Democrat comments on faith:
"A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, nor what it is trying to do. We are trying to do a futile thing if we do not know where we came from or what we have been about. ... America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the tenets of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture."--Woodrow Wilson

"The fundamental basis of this nation's laws was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and Saint Matthew, from Isaiah and Saint Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the State." --Harry Truman

SOURCE

When an ABC reporter wrote that Al Gore said God sometimes talks to him, I don't remember liberals becoming all concerned.
 
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christalee4

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Shane Roach said:
To make a long story short, the entire article and OP are nothing but slander against not only Christians, but anyone of any faith who holds more or less traditional values.

I see it as one more reason why the left is failing. More and more they find it difficult to maintain the facade of being accepting and loving of all people. They have taken on the tactics of the fascist. They demonize those with whom they have disagreements, and have no place in their world view for anyone who does not walk in lock step with their dogma.

I have to disagree about the slander. The article focuses on a study of commonalities of fundamentalism in ALL major religions; not all Christians and Muslims are defined as having fundamentalist beliefs, and at the same time, there are many non-fundamentalists who hold traditional values as well. A large percentage of Christians also hold liberal beliefs.

If anything, we have seen a recent trend among certain fundamentalist factions in America towards fascism. Leftists are demonized as "satanists" (and that is literally demonizing!), "pagans", the "homosexual agenda", "radical feminists" (the so-called "bra-burning" days were over decades ago), "baby killers", "anti Christian bigots". There are plenty of documented quotes by Rev. Falwell, Pat Robertson and many others that were hateful and inflammatory in nature.

In a given society, liberals in a democracy are more accepting and inclusive of others who have different faiths, sexual preference, interracial relationships, a wider array of roles for men and women. Look at the difference between the societies of Iran and Saudi Arabia, vs. countries like America, Great Britain and in Europe. The seeds of democracy and a longing for greater social freedoms have already been planted in middle eastern countries. For example, in this country, even though many states have voted against gay unions, several states have approved them as well. Americans have clearly shown they are against government interfering in personal family matters pertaining to the Terri Schiavo case, and are against ending the filibuster. Most Americans don't want government in their private lives and they want to maintain the status quo of church/state separation.

If a minority of fundamentalists want to bring God back into government, and change society back to the days before acceptance of homosexuality, women in the workplace, and the loosening of social mores, how can it be accomplished?
 
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Chrysalis Kat

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Voegelin said:
When an ABC reporter wrote that Al Gore said God sometimes talks to him, I don't remember liberals becoming all concerned.
Why would they be upset??? Christian pray and talk to God regardless of their political positions!
Has there ever been an elected American politician that didn’t profess to hold religious beliefs? You certainly don't have to go back to the archives to find presidents or even presidental candidates that are both Christian and democrat.

From your linked article -
“This assault on the integrity of our constitutional design has been fueled by a small group claiming special knowledge of God’s will in American politics,” said Gore. “They even claim that those of us who disagree with their point of view are waging war against ‘people of faith.’ How dare they?”
 
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