Hi
@BobRyan:
Thank you for your generous 5-part message. The bottom line is that, in the NT, your "soul sleep" theory is based solely on 2 verses
I guess you mean 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11:11-14 and
John 11:11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, “
Our friend Lazarus has
fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may
awaken him out of sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has
fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus
is dead,
1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those
who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest
who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those
who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those
who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Since
Matt 10:28 says the body is KILLED leaving only the soul to still exist and be the thing that is dormant.
28 Do not fear those who
kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Eccl 12:7 then the
dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
And of course Jesus said that without the resurrection those who have died are not the subjects of God, He can only be said to be "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" after they had died -- because of the future resurrection according to Christ - such that without it - the statement is not true
Matt 22:
31 But regarding
the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard
this, they were astonished at His teaching.
And of course many other scriptures describing death as a sleep state...
and contradicted by the entire spirit of the Gospel.
I am not at all convinced that the scriptures supporting my statement above are contradicting the spirit of the Gospel . That is an accusation you should have to support with evidence.
I will not repeat what has already been addressed.
I recommend a focus on supporting your claim in the previous line.
No, sleep is of 2 types: NREM and REM.
That is a statement about biology... there is no biological sleep happening with dust. Dead bodies don't engage in any kind of biological sleep not even when they are reduced to dust. That leaves only the surviving entity - the soul (in Matt 10:28) to have any sort of "dormant" state.
One is considered conscious during REM and unconscious during NREM. Still, you can easily awake someone who is asleep.
Agreed. that happens each night - with the living. But I was thinking our topic was the state of death.
As I said before, I don't have a problem saying that the soul is asleep in some sense.
In that case - you seem to agree that the dormant state of the soul does not "contradict the spirit of the gospel".
Our post-mortem spirit is not joined to some other body.
Agreed. And that is also not a contradiction of the spirit of the gospel.
In the Bible (as we see in Matt 10:28 and in Eccl 12) the case for all mankind is that at death the body is killed... returns to dust... is not in a biological "sleep state" at all.
But the spirit returns to God who gave it. Which means there is a resurrection in the future and some people are to be taken up at the rapture (the future appearing of Christ, the destiny of the saints) while others come up in the second resurrection seen in Rev 20 and are subject to the "second death" in Rev 20.
Thus it is not an undesirable state. And 2Co 5 is a good example that proves my point:
2 Cor 5 says that it is NOT a desirable state. The intermediate state is not at all desirable.
2 Cor 5:2 For indeed in this
house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we,
having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life
In 2 Cor 5 there are TWO clothed states and one naked state
1. First clothed state - in THIS decaying tent body.
2. Second clothed state - having our immortal body given to us as 1 Cor 15 says - at the resurrection
3. The intermediate state -- not joined to any body at all -- naked.
You quoted an extra-biblical source and I didn't object. But anyway, the Bible does say that God is above the heavens.
Refresh my memory please - I don't remember the extra-biblical source you are referring to.
So his throne must be higher than the 3rd heaven:
Psa 8:1 LORD, our Lord, How majestic is Your name in all the earth, You who have displayed Your splendor above the heavens!
Psa 57:11 Be exalted above the heavens, God;
May Your glory
be above all the earth.
Psa 113:4 The LORD is high above all nations; His glory is above the heavens.
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Well first of all I am glad to see that you are willing to go to both OT and NT to support doctrine.
2 Cor 12 tells us that Paradise is in the 3rd heaven.
Rev 2 tells us that the Tree of life is in Paradise
Rev 22 tells us that God's throne is where the tree of life is.
So while God's throne is above both the first and second heaven -- so then "Above the heavens" in that sense - it is actually in the 3rd heaven that Paul speaks of in 2 Cor 12.
Rev 2:7 says that tree of life is in Paradise.
Rev 22:1-3 says that the river of the water of life flows from the throne of God and the Lamb. No problem there.
I am glad you agree - but note that the tree of life is where the throne of God is in Rev 22. That puts it in Paradise - the third heaven.