Function of the soul

[Carl Emerson]

Yes that is pretty close to how I see it except that for Jesus the present and the future are one.

 

[Andrewn]

Was it Body, soul and spirit in both cases??

Jesus was raised IN THE FLESH... in other words it was a bodily resurrection - no corpse. He is the first born of many. So it is for all true believers.

This is a very difficult question, and I don't think @BobRyan provided an answer. It is true that the Lord was resurrected in a spiritual body. But how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of transfiguration? Were they spirits only? Or were they spirit + soul?

They could not have been spiritual bodies other wise they would have been resurrected before Christ. It's a difficult issue. What do you think?

 

[Andrewn]

Soul differs from spirit in that in life the soul is the entire person

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

According to your definition, Paul is saying, "May your spirit and entire person and body be preserved and complete." Does this make sense?

Isa 10:18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body, And it will be as when a sick man wastes away.

According to your definition, Isaiah is saying, "And he will destroy . . . both entire person and body." Does this make sense?

Psa 42:5 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why have you become disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him, For the help of His presence.

According to your definition, the Psalm is saying, "Why have you my entire person become disturbed within me?" Does this make sense?

Job 30:16 “And now my soul is poured out within me; Days of affliction have seized me.

According to your definition, Job is saying, "And now my entire person is poured within me." Does this make sense?

Comment: The understanding of soul to mean the "entire person" does not make sense in many context and you will need to find a different definition of "soul."

 

[Andrewn]

in death the spirit separated from the body and dormant is how the person (the soul) is said to be dormant

This is according to SDA's and JW's.

"remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom... verily I say unto you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise".

This is not a true translation. You're quoting from JW Bible where it says:

Luk 23:43 And he said to him: 'Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.'

Comment: The Expositor's Greek Testament says, "σήμερον: to be connected with what follows, not with λέγω = to-day, as opposed to a boon expected at some future time (which makes for the reading ἐν τῇ β. in Luke 23:42)."

 

[Andrewn]

And as we see in John 20:17 - Jesus had not yet been to paradise as of the point of His resurrection.

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

Before meeting with Mary Magdalene, Christ had already gone to Paradise (the 3rd heaven) as he promised the repentant thief but He had not gone up to the throne of the Father in the 7th heaven. According to Jewish belief, Araboth (ערבות) is the seventh Heaven where ofanim, the seraphim, and the hayyoth and the Throne of God are located.

The Bible says that at death "the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7. Stephen is appealing to that same thing in Acts 7: 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

Yes, indeed. But did Stephen expect his spirit to be unconscious? What kind of hope is that? How can you assume that spirits are unconscious when they return to God? God, by definition, is consciousness. Spirits, after losing their connection to the body, are even more conscious than before.

By contrast "so shall we ever be WITH the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a statement about being awake (not dormant) and with the Lord at Christ's appearing - at the rapture's resurrection.

This passage in about the resurrection of the body. The body is what is dormant. The dead in Christ will rise first. The flesh is asleep. I'm even willing to say the soul, in some sense, is resting. But the spirit is conscious to the glory of God and the praise of Christ.

Jesus makes the same point in John 14:1-3 saying that re turns to receive us to Himself "so that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

The point is that we want to be awake and not dormant.. because as Jesus said in Matt 22 - in the dormant state "God is not the god of the dead" which is why there has to be a future resurrection.

I didn't realize the NT was so confusing! You quote standard texts that prove post-mortem consciousness. In Joh 14:1-3, the Lord promises his disciples that they will be where he is now, not in the far future after resurrection of the body!

Similarly, in Mat 22:32, He is clearly saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are quite conscious in the spirit. He is not God of the unconscious!

Comment: In order to force the NT to comply with "soul sleep" theology, SDA's defer all hope of being with Christ to the resurrection of the body. What a sad hope! Even Rabbinic Jews do not believe this.

 

[Andrewn]

No text says that when the spirit departs - we are "With the Lord"

You believe the we are our souls. But, in fact, we are our spirits. The spirits are aware, conscious, before and after death.

It is as you say - a parable with prayers to the dead from other dead people and no prayer at all to God. In that parable Abraham is in charge of all the dead saints and is sovereign to whom the dead souls in hell can appeal to ---

I'm glad you do not consider Rich and Lazarus "science fiction." Interesting that you see in the parable evidence of prayer to the dead. I didn't notice this before. Perhaps Catholics are right about this belief. The point of the parable is that "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead,” which was a prophecy of the Jewish leaders' unbelief even after the resurrection of Jesus.

yet even Abraham in this parable states that the only way for someone to communicate with people on Earth is to first be resurrected.

Where do you see this in the parable of Rich and Lazarus?

Not "doubt" but rather accurate information "all scripture is inspired by God and to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,

Yes, indeed. But I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of progressive revelation. After Jesus' resurrection, He showed to his disciples how the scriptures prophecies about Him. The Jewish leaders could not understand the scriptures properly.

the spirit returns to God in the state of death as John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 states -- in a dormant state. Which is why in Matt 22 Jesus said "God is not the god of the dead"

I've explained how this is completely untrue. You assume that the spirit in the afterlife is unconscious. This assumption contradicts NT teaching as shown in post #72. When our hardware is asleep, God will download our software on to his hardware, which makes our spirits (our applications) quite conscious.

 

[Hawkins]

This is a very difficult question, and I don't think @BobRyan provided an answer. It is true that the Lord was resurrected in a spiritual body. But how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of transfiguration? Were they spirits only? Or were they spirit + soul?

They could not have been spiritual bodies other wise they would have been resurrected before Christ. It's a difficult issue. What do you think?

Jesus was resurrected with His original physical body. Moses and Elijah are in the form of manifested images identifying their souls. We humans cannot recognize souls, that's why we need a body acting as an image for us to recognize each other. In the absence of such a physical body, an image can be manifested to represent Moses and Elijah.

Actually when someone sees ghosts, what they saw is also the manifested images. However, as they are manifested by the evil spirits they don't need to represent a soul correctly. That's why when you see the ghost of one of your close relatives, say your long-dead grandpa, 'he' may not be your grandpa at all but disguised by the evil spirit behind that image.

 

[chilehed]

This is something I've been pondering for a while now. Assuming it actually exists, what role does the soul play in everyday life?

The soul is the principle that animates a living body.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes that is pretty close to how I see it except that for Jesus the present and the future are one.

Jesus is God but as we see in Ex 20:8-11 God is fully capable of specifying exact time periods so that humans understand if something is to happen today or 7 days from today etc.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a very difficult question, and I don't think @BobRyan provided an answer.

In fact I did specify that Jesus had a literal bodily resurrection. He eats fish to "prove" to his disciples that it was a full physical bodily resurrection.

It is true that the Lord was resurrected in a spiritual body.

If by that you mean a physical body that eats fish etc as proof of it - then I agree.

But how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of transfiguration? Were they spirits only? Or were they spirit + soul?

They were body + spirit = living soul.

Elijah was bodily translated - in 2 Kings 2.
Moses was bodily resurrected and bodily assumed into heaven see "the Assumption of Moses" quoted in Jude 1:9

They could not have been spiritual bodies other wise they would have been resurrected before Christ.

Jesus resurrected many people before his own resurrection.
Enoch and Elijah never died.
Moses was bodily assumed into heaven as we see in "the Assumption of Moses" a book quoted in Jude 1:9

 

[BobRyan]

You believe the we are our souls

The soul that sins it shall die "Ezek 18:4"

Gen 2: 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (NKJV/KJV)

7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (NASB)

. But, in fact, we are our spirits.

It is more detailed than that. The Bible says the spirit returns to God who gave it - at death and the body turns to dust. Thus "we ARE our spirit" as the old dust is not brought back as 1 Cor 15 says. But om the Bible the term SOUL encompasses the spirit and the body in most cases.

Rev 20 "souls came to life" means that the dormant soul has the spirit joined to the body and is not a living being.

So this not me saying "you are not your spirit" but I do see the Bible teaching that the spirit is distinct from the body when one is returning to dust and the other goes to God who gave it.

The spirits are aware, conscious

Agreed - in life - joined to the body the spirit is responsible for being aware, conscious.

Which is why it is so significant that the Bible says all that function ceases at death. And that God "is not the god of the dead" Matt 22.

============ And for good reason -- ... since scripture says --


Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead. which has to be the case if the dormant spirit/soul is not interacting. Jesus uses that fact to prove the future bodily resurrection to die-hard opponents like the Sadducees.

Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!

Ps 30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
5For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;[/quote]


Ps 6:5 they have no memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

Ps 146:4 they have no thought activity
Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

============

Sleep is a term that conveys a dormant condition for the person regardless of the fact that their body is now dust and dust of course does not "appear to sleep".

It is "those WHO" sleep in 1 Thess 4:13-18 (not the body that is dust). Terms like "those who" and "I go that I may awake him" refer to person/persons not to a "thing" being awakened.

In that dormant state the soul does not engage in any interaction

 

[BobRyan]

I'm glad you do not consider Rich and Lazarus "science fiction." Interesting that you see in the parable evidence of prayer to the dead.

It is a parable -- and parables are not a historic record they are illustrations of a point. So not "science fiction".

In the parable you have prayers to one who is dead - in Matt 22 that is how Jesus describes Abraham.

I didn't notice this before. Perhaps Catholics are right about this belief.

In the parable Abraham is sovereign of heaven and to be prayed to - to get a saint resurrected and sent to the living. Even Catholics don't go for that idea as literally the case in heaven, as far as I know.

The point of the parable is that "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead,”

Jesus would be resurrected from the dead - which is why he is making that case that those who reject Moses will reject Him even though He will indeed rise from the dead. He is not making the case that Abraham will enable Him to be resurrected.

which was a prophecy of the Jewish leaders' unbelief even after the resurrection of Jesus.

agreed.

BobRyan said: ↑
yet even Abraham in this parable states that the only way for someone to communicate with people on Earth is to first be resurrected.

Where do you see this in the parable of Rich and Lazarus?

1. In the parable the rich man only asks that someone be sent to his relatives to warn them -- Abraham's response is that resurrecting someone to send them to the relatives will not work since they do not accept Moses. However the rich man never asked that someone be resurrected. Abraham's response implies that the reader knows that to fulfill that request to inform the loved ones of the rich man -- the person being sent would need to first be resurrected.

2. Prayers to the dead here - in Luke 16

22 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set, so that those who want to go over from here to you will not be able, nor will any people cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I request of you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not come to this place of torment as well.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

This prayers to the dead element as if Abraham is sovereign of heaven - is one of several aspects leading R.C. Sproul and Matthew Henry to view this as a parable

 

[BobRyan]

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,

Yes, indeed. But I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of progressive revelation

agreed.

. After Jesus' resurrection, He showed to his disciples how the scriptures prophecies about Him. The Jewish leaders could not understand the scriptures properly.

agreed.

 

[BobRyan]

since scripture says --
Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead. which has to be the case if the dormant spirit/soul is not interacting. Jesus uses that fact to prove the future bodily resurrection to die-hard opponents like the Sadducees.

Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!

Ps 30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
5For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

Ps 6:5 they have no memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

Ps 146:4 they have no thought activity
Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

============

Sleep is a term that conveys a dormant condition for the person regardless of the fact that their body is now dust and dust of course does not "appear to sleep".

It is "those WHO" sleep in 1 Thess 4:13-18 (not the body that is dust). Terms like "those who" and "I go that I may awake him" refer to person/persons not to a "thing" being awakened.

In that dormant state the soul does not engage in any interaction[/QUOTE]

I've explained how this is completely untrue. You assume that the spirit in the afterlife is unconscious.

I see in the texts quoted above that the person is said have "fallen asleep in Jesus" as 1 Thess 4:13-18 which is not a reference to dust - dust does not have a "sleep" function and God is not tracking dust for the resurrection. Jesus says "our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" -- as in "him" the person.

This assumption contradicts NT teaching as shown in post #72. When our hardware is asleep, God will download our software on to his hardware, which makes our spirits (our applications) quite conscious.

No text says that while we are asleep in Jesus our spirit is joined to some other body. Rather in 2 Cor 5:2-8 it is the "unclothed" state between death and resurrection Paul says it is an undesirable state. Jesus says "god is not the god of the dead" and the texts above show that all worship functions cease at death. We worship God "in spirit" John 4- even while living - and the texts above say that function does not happen in death.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
And as we see in John 20:17 - Jesus had not yet been to paradise as of the point of His resurrection.

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

Before meeting with Mary Magdalene, Christ had already gone to Paradise (the 3rd heaven) as he promised the repentant thief but He had not gone up to the throne of the Father in the 7th heaven.

1. The Bible does not say the throne of God is in a seventh heaven.
2. The Bible says God's throne is in Paradise compare Rev 2:7 and Rev 22:1-3

 

[Skye1300]

This is something I've been pondering for a while now. Assuming it actually exists, what role does the soul play in everyday life? The way I see it, we humans experience life through the activities of our bodies. We see with our eyes. We think with our brains, and so forth. I really am not sure what part the soul would have in that process.

What do you all think?

Your soul is the part that makes you you. Your thoughts, feelings, emotions, desires, hopes dreams etc. The part that makes you like the color blue more than the color orange. The part of you that makes you feel cuteness when you see cute kittens or baby animals. Your physical body is not you. Think of identical twins. They have exactly the same genes but different souls, (thoughts, feelings and emotions). The soul is the breath of life God breathed into Adam. Your physical body is like your car and your soul is you or the driver.

 

[TedT]

What do you all think?

I think that our spirits are sown into our bodies at conception according to Matt 13:36-39. A spirit bound by a body is called a soul so I tend not to see them as different.

 

[Andrewn]

Moses and Elijah are in the form of manifested images identifying their souls. We humans cannot recognize souls, that's why we need a body acting as an image for us to recognize each other. In the absence of such a physical body, an image can be manifested to represent Moses and Elijah.

This is an interesting idea.

Actually when someone sees ghosts, what they saw is also the manifested images. However, as they are manifested by the evil spirits they don't need to represent a soul correctly. That's why when you see the ghost of one of your close relatives, say your long-dead grandpa, 'he' may not be your grandpa at all but disguised by the evil spirit behind that image.

I agree.

Jesus resurrected many people before his own resurrection. Enoch and Elijah never died. Moses was bodily assumed into heaven as we see in "the Assumption of Moses" a book quoted in Jude 1:9

You're saying that Moses and Elijah were physical human beings like Lazarus after his resurrection. This is quite possible. But it begs the question as to where have been their physical bodies hidden before and after the transfiguration?

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is a very difficult question, and I don't think @BobRyan provided an answer. It is true that the Lord was resurrected in a spiritual body. But how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of transfiguration? Were they spirits only? Or were they spirit + soul?

They could not have been spiritual bodies other wise they would have been resurrected before Christ. It's a difficult issue. What do you think?

I think we try to rationalise matters to fit our own capacity to think rather than appreciate that God does stuff beyond our comprehension. In that sense theology can be fuelled by pride...

My take on it is that the crucifixion and resurrection events are timeless.

In that case Jesus was first to be resurrected in chronology but the impact of the resurrection enabled others to be resurrected throughout history.

Same applies to the blood of Christ - OT saints were covered by Christs blood through faith as we are. The cross is a timeless event.

This is why in prayer we can approach the Cross which is occurring in every moment of time.
Give back our burdens as He is taking them for us.

 

[Andrewn]

Hi @BobRyan:

Thank you for your generous 5-part message. The bottom line is that, in the NT, your "soul sleep" theory is based solely on 2 verses and contradicted by the entire spirit of the Gospel. I will not repeat what has already been addressed. I will only add comments that I ignored to mention previously, and that are directly related to the Intermediate State.

Sleep is a term that conveys a dormant condition for the person regardless of the fact that their body is now dust and dust of course does not "appear to sleep".

No, sleep is of 2 types: NREM and REM. One is considered conscious during REM and unconscious during NREM. Still, you can easily awake someone who is asleep.

I see in the texts quoted above that the person is said have "fallen asleep in Jesus" as 1 Thess 4:13-18 which is not a reference to dust - dust does not have a "sleep" function and God is not tracking dust for the resurrection. Jesus says "our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" -- as in "him" the person.

As I said before, I don't have a problem saying that the soul is asleep in some sense. My emphasis is on post-mortem consciousness of the spirit.

No text says that while we are asleep in Jesus our spirit is joined to some other body. Rather in 2 Cor 5:2-8 it is the "unclothed" state between death and resurrection Paul says it is an undesirable state.

Our post-mortem spirit is not joined to some other body. It is joined to God, to whom it returns. Thus it is not an undesirable state. And 2Co 5 is a good example that proves my point:

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent, our earthly home, is torn down, we have a building from God—a home not made with human hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling— 3 if indeed, after we have put it on, we will not be found naked. 8 We are confident, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.

Jesus says "god is not the god of the dead" and the texts above show that all worship functions cease at death. We worship God "in spirit" John 4- even while living - and the texts above say that function does not happen in death.

This supports what I have been saying. God is not the God of the unconscious.

The Bible does not say the throne of God is in a seventh heaven.

You quoted an extra-biblical source and I didn't object. But anyway, the Bible does say that God is above the heavens. So his throne must be higher than the 3rd heaven:

Psa 8:1 LORD, our Lord, How majestic is Your name in all the earth, You who have displayed Your splendor above the heavens!

Psa 57:11 Be exalted above the heavens, God; May Your glory be above all the earth.

Psa 113:4 The LORD is high above all nations; His glory is above the heavens.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended farabove all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

The Bible says God's throne is in Paradise compare Rev 2:7 and Rev 22:1-3

Rev 2:7 says that tree of life is in Paradise. Rev 22:1-3 says that the river of the water of life flows from the throne of God and the Lamb. No problem there. The Nile flows from Ethiopia and Equatorial Africa. But we get cotton from Egypt.