Function of the soul

[Andrewn]

Matt 10:28 the soul survives death but the body with its blood - does not.

Eccl 12:7 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Gen 3: 19 By the sweat of your face You shall eat bread, Until you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”

But the soul is "the person" all the same. It is just that for a living soul - it is the person having spirit and body joined... and souls that are asleep or that have not "Come to life" is the case of a person whose body is dead.

After death, the body and the blood are dissolved, they return to dust. This is an observable fact.

But, even after dissolution of the body and blood and after there is no body remains (except fragments of bone), you still consider the soul to be "the person having spirit and body joined."

Since after death the body is no more, you're basically saying that the soul is completely identified with the spirit.

When the Bible talks about the soul departing the body after death (post #57) and when it talks about the spirit returning to God (post #53) you understand this to be the same thing.

And since the person has been dissolved, and the body and spirit are disjoined, then the person cannot be conscious.

IOW, you are saying that there is no such a thing as a free-standing entity called "soul." The soul is the combination of body and spirit.

Do I understand you correctly?

 

[BobRyan]

But, even after dissolution of the body and blood and after there is no body remains (except fragments of bone), you still consider the soul to be "the person having spirit and body joined."

No. Because in that case "the spirit returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7 - but no "body" is flying through the air back to God.

7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

James 2: 26 .." the body without the spirit is dead "

Since after death the body is no more, you're basically saying that the soul is completely identified with the spirit.

In a sense - because while the spirit and body are alive it is called a "living soul" but when spirit and body are not joined - so then the body is dead - then it is described as the "person" being in the John 11, 1 Thess 4:13-18 "sleep state" rather than the "non-existent state".

Which is why we have Matt 10:28 "kill the body but not the soul"

When the Bible talks about the soul departing the body after death (post #57) and when it talks about the spirit returning to God (post #53) you understand this to be the same thing.

Yes - but the "spirit returns to God" is a more technically specific term in the case of death -- since souls go to heaven at the resurrection-rapture but in that case spirit is joined to body, so we would not call that "spirit returns to God who gave it" at the resurrection. And of source that is a case only for the saints - the wicked will not be resurrected at the rapture and taken bodily to heaven - having spirit joined to body and going to heave as "living souls".

IOW, you are saying that there is no such a thing as a free-standing entity called "soul." The soul is the combination of body and spirit.

Do I understand you correctly?

No I claim that it must exist Matt 10:28 but in the dormant state of John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18. But it is only in spirit form - and thus dormant.

Also - the Bible defines this as the mechanism for the first death which means it applies to all humans not just good people. The spirit returns to God who gave it -- even for the wicked. But there will not be a case where a wicked soul as a living soul - goes to heaven. Only the saints will be in heaven as living souls.

 

[BobRyan]

When we see "WHO ARE.." terms being used - it is a reference to the person themselves.
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Paul says in 1 Thess 4:13-18 that the dead in Christ have "fallen asleep in Jesus" so I take that as his position on whether those loved ones were "awake" or not.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

 

[BobRyan]

When we see terms like "Lazarus" which is specifically "our friend Lazarus" it is a reference to the person who "has fallen asleep".

So then it is "awake HIM" and not "awaken IT"

John 11:
11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died, 15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let’s go to him.”

 

[Andrewn]

In a sense - because while the spirit and body are alive it is called a "living soul" but when spirit and body are not joined - so then the body is dead - then it is described as the "person" being in the John 11, 1 Thess 4:13-18 "sleep state" rather than the "non-existent state".

What do you make of verses like these, which show that the soul is different from the spirit and the body?

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:44 it is sown a soulish body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is also a spiritual body.

Isa 10:18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body, And it will be as when a sick man wastes away.

Lam 3:20 Surely my soul remembers, And is bowed down within me.

Psa 131:2 Surely I have composed and quieted my soul; Like a weaned child rests against his mother, My soul is like a weaned child within me.

Psa 42:5 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why have you become disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him, For the help of His presence.

Job 30:16 “And now my soul is poured out within me; Days of affliction have seized me.

 

[BobRyan]

What do you make of verses like these, which show that the soul is different from the spirit and the body?

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. .

context determines meaning. In some contexts a person "has a soul" and in other contexts a person "is a soul".

Here we have just a few examples of the "a person IS a soul" contexts...


Joshuah 10:37 And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

Clearly this is “persons” since at death the soul is not destroyed according to Matt 10:28. So “destroyed..all the souls that were therein” has to be “persons”

Gen 2: 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (NKJV/KJV)

7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (NASB)

Gen 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

Gen 46:18 These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.

 

[Andrewn]

context determines meaning. In some contexts a person "has a soul" and in other contexts a person "is a soul".

Excellent, you do agree that in some contexts a person "has a soul." Do you also agree that the soul, in these contexts, is different from the body and spirit as shown in post #65? If you agree, then what is the function of the soul?

Paul says in 1 Thess 4:13-18 that the dead in Christ have "fallen asleep in Jesus" so I take that as his position on whether those loved ones were "awake" or not.

When we see terms like "Lazarus" which is specifically "our friend Lazarus" it is a reference to the person who "has fallen asleep".

The image of sleep is a mere metaphor, drawn from the outward phenomena of death, and is used as a euphemism for death. The evidence of post-mortem consciousness in the NT is overwhelming. But I know you disagree about this subject and there is perhaps no need to get into it.

I'm just trying to understand your view on the human soul and spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

Excellent, you do agree that in some contexts a person "has a soul." Do you also agree that the soul, in these contexts, is different from the body

I do agree with that.

But as noted before in the specific case of one who is dead physically - the spirit returns to God and that is the only thing that the soul then has reference to - until that person is resurrected. At which point Rev 20 says "the soul comes to life". So the person is dormant in the mean time.

1 Cor 2 says the spirit is that part of you that "knows your thoughts" - is aware of thoughts. No text says "Lord Jesus receive my soul" or "that your soul is traveling" while you are dead. This is only said of the spirit going back to God.

and spirit as shown in post #65? If you agree, then what is the function of the soul?

Well as stated before - sometimes the term refers to the person and other times to the state of the dormant person in death. -- so for example the "persons" who sleep in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11 can only be in reference to a dormant spirit, and without a body that means the soul itself dormant and will not "come to life" until the resurrection of the body as Rev 20 points out.

The image of sleep is a mere metaphor

Sleep is a term that conveys a dormant condition for the person regardless of the fact that their body is now dust and dust of course does not "appear to sleep".

It is "those WHO" sleep in 1 Thess 4:13-18 (not the body that is dust). Terms like "those who" and "I go that I may awake him" refer to person/persons not to a "thing" being awakened.

In that dormant state the soul does not engage in any interaction

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead. which has to be the case if the dormant spirit/soul is not interacting. Jesus uses that fact to prove the future bodily resurrection to die-hard opponents like the Sadducees.

Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!

Ps 30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
5For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;[/quote]


Ps 6:5 they have no memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

Ps 146:4 they have no thought activity
Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can I ask you please how your conclusions apply to understanding the Transfiguration?

 

[BobRyan]

Can I ask you please how your conclusions apply to understanding the Transfiguration?

1. Like Enoch -- Elijah did not die. Rather - he was translated according to 2 Kings 2
2. Moses was bodily resurrected and then bodily assumed into heaven - according to the book quoted by Jude in Jude 9. That book is titled "The Assumption of Moses"

 

[Carl Emerson]

1. Like Enoch -- Elijah did not die. Rather - he was translated according to 2 Kings 2
2. Moses was bodily resurrected and then bodily assumed into heaven - according to the book quoted by Jude in Jude 9. That book is titled "The Assumption of Moses"

Was it Body, soul and spirit in both cases??

 

[Andrewn]

I do agree with that. But as noted before in the specific case of one who is dead physically - the spirit returns to God and that is the only thing that the soul then has reference to - until that person is resurrected. At which point Rev 20 says "the soul comes to life". So the person is dormant in the mean time.

You didn't comment on the verses I quoted in post #65 and specifically on the function of the soul in those verses.

As far as Rev 20 is concerned, I'm sure you know that the Amillennial interpretation is that the souls referred to are already reigning with Christ in Paradise.

You're also most likely aware that the Lord promised the crucified thief "Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luk 23:43).

Stephen believed that he would be with Christ (Act 7:59) and so did Paul (Php 1:20-24; 2Co 5:1-10). And, beside Rev 20, the souls of the departed saints are mentioned in other places in Revelation (Rev 6:9-11; Rev 7:13-17).

In addition, the parable of Rich and Lazarus is quite clear and is not science fiction as you may understand it.

As far as the verses you quote from the OT are concerned, one may agree that some verses do express doubt about the afterlife. But some verses do express hope:

Psa 73:24 You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will receive me into glory.

Ecc 12:6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

No text says "Lord Jesus receive my soul" or "that your soul is traveling" while you are dead. This is only said of the spirit going back to God.

But the spirit is quite conscious after death.


Conclusion: Sure you can make a case for soul sleep from the OT. But the NT is saturated with the belief in post-mortem consciousness. The use of the expression "Lazarus is asleep" and similar expression by no means indicate unconsciousness. In general, SDA's give way too much weight to the OT.

 

[BobRyan]

Was it Body, soul and spirit in both cases??

I am not clear on "what is body" being a question anyone seriously has. We can see our hands, our face, our head etc.

So that leaves only spirit and soul.

Notice that Matt 10:28 reduces it to just two "body and soul". When someone dies their spirit returns to God who gave it Eccl 12:7 - and the soul is therefore in the state described by 1 Thess 4:13-18 and john 11 since the spirit is not connected to the body and has no active function in that state.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I am not clear on "what is body" being a question anyone seriously has. We can see our hands, our face, our head etc.

So that leaves only spirit and soul.

Notice that Matt 10:28 reduces it to just two "body and soul". When someone dies their spirit returns to God who gave - and the soul is therefore in the state described by 1 Thess 4:13-18 and john 11 since the spirit is not connected to the body and has no active function in that state.

Jesus was raised IN THE FLESH... in other words it was a bodily resurrection - no corpse.

He is the first born of many.

So it is for all true believers.

 

[BobRyan]

You didn't comment on the verses I quoted in post #65 and specifically on the function of the soul in those verses.

Soul differs from spirit in that in life the soul is the entire person but the spirit is never the entire person .. since spirit does not include the element of "body" -- it can be joined to the body but it is not the body. The person -- the soul - can be reference in life as the entire person as the many texts I have cited show... and in death the spirit separated from the body and dormant is how the person (the soul) is said to be dormant and then "comes to life" as Rev 20 says... at the resurrection.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sorry if I misunderstood you Bob...

I apologise.

 

[BobRyan]

As far as Rev 20 is concerned, I'm sure you know that the Amillennial interpretation is that the souls referred to are already reigning with Christ in Paradise.

I agree there are other points of view that people have - other than the one I mention here.

You're also most likely aware that the Lord promised the crucified thief "Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luk 23:43).

"remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom... verily I say unto you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise". And as we see in John 20:17 - Jesus had not yet been to paradise as of the point of His resurrection.

Stephen believed that he would be with Christ (Act 7:59)

The Bible says that at death "the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7

Stephen is appealing to that same thing in Acts 7: 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

By contrast "so shall we ever be WITH the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a statement about being awake (not dormant) and with the Lord at Christ's appearing - at the rapture's resurrection.

Jesus makes the same point in John 14:1-3 saying that re turns to receive us to Himself "so that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

The point is that we want to be awake and not dormant.. because as Jesus said in Matt 22 - in the dormant state "God is not the god of the dead" which is why there has to be a future resurrection.

and so did Paul (Php 1:20-24; 2Co 5:1-10).

No text says that when the spirit departs - we are "With the Lord" but we do have the idea presented that from the POV of the one passing through death - it appears that at the moment of death we are in the "With the Lord" condition described in 1 John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 -- since in our dormant state we are not aware of the passing of time - one instant is this life and the next instant we are with the Lord at his appearing.

And, beside Rev 20, the souls of the departed saints are mentioned in other places in Revelation (Rev 6:9-11; Rev 7:13-17).

Many images and symbols in the book of Revelation -- I agree with that

In addition, the parable of Rich and Lazarus is quite clear

It is as you say - a parable with prayers to the dead from other dead people and no prayer at all to God. In that parable Abraham is in charge of all the dead saints and is sovereign to whom the dead souls in hell can appeal to --- yet even Abraham in this parable states that the only way for someone to communicate with people on Earth is to first be resurrected.

and is not science fiction as you may understand it.

I never call parables science fiction.

As far as the verses you quote from the OT are concerned, one may agree that some verses do express doubt about the afterlife.

Not "doubt" but rather accurate information "all scripture is inspired by God and to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16

But some verses do express hope:

Psa 73:24 You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will receive me into glory.

Ecc 12:6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

the spirit returns to God in the state of death as John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 states -- in a dormant state. Which is why in Matt 22 Jesus said "God is not the god of the dead"

It is the NT that makes that case most pointedly.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus was raised IN THE FLESH... in other words it was a bodily resurrection

True we all look forward to a literal bodily resurrection.

1 John 3 says
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5 discuss that literal resurrected body as well that we all will have at the resurrection.

He is the first born of many.

So it is for all true believers.

Indeed that is the blessed hope and this is why in 1 Peter 1 we are told to "fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ" rather than "at death" - and it is why the 1 Thess 4:13-18 text for funerals instructs us to look to the appearing of Christ - the rapture as the time of our being joined together with our departed loved ones.

Sorry if I misunderstood you Bob...

I apologise.

No need to apologize - it is a good discussion and I am glad to have the opportunity to clarify my POV.

 

[Carl Emerson]

"remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom... verily I say unto you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise". And as we see in John 20:17 - Jesus had not yet been to paradise as of the point of His resurrection.

When Jesus says 'today' is he coming from an eternal perspective as in before Abraham was I AM... So he is indicating meeting in eternity rather than stating a chronological fact ?

 

[BobRyan]

When Jesus says 'today' is he coming from an eternal perspective as in before Abraham was I AM... So he is indicating meeting in eternity rather than stating a chronological fact ?

If you look at the emphasized words - in my post (upper case used for emphasis not volume) - it shows the sense of the text as I understand it.

"remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom... verily I say unto you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise"

By emphasizing "when" and "shall" - the sense of the text is --
In the future when you come into your kingdom will you please remember me - (a request)
I say to you today you s-h-a-l-l be with me in Paradise... which is a reference to that same future event and the promise that He would remember the thief at that future time - to resurrect him.

As John 20 points out - even Jesus had not been to paradise as of the Sunday morning resurrection.

For as we see in John 14:1-3 "I will come again so that WHERE I am THERE you may be also" - (again upper case for emphasis - not volume)

====================

Punctuation inserted into the text long after the initial writer penned it makes it look like the emphasis is on "today" -- I think it makes more sense to have it on "shall"