Function of the soul

[Bob Crowley]

I've often stated the night my father died, he appeared in my room. We had a full blown conversation.

Now he was dead, and his body was lying in a flat in a suburb called Nundah. I was living in a suburb called Yeronga. The driving distance is about 17.5 km, but it's probably about 15 km as the crow flies.

It was obvious he could talk, hear, see, and think. I could choose to look at him, and I could look through him, like smoke from a fire - if we're sitting around a camp fire, we can choose to look at the smoke, the patterns it makes, the way it moves, or we can see through it at possibly the people sitting on the other side.

For obvious reasons I'm a dualist - soul and body - but I have no idea how soul and body interact while we're still in the flesh.

Recently I had cataract surgery, in which my eye lenses were replaced with artificial lenses. For the first couple of days afterwards I had this peculiar sense that if I looked sideways, I could see the lens or the front of it. But after a few days the brain got to work and assimilated it into it's perception of my sight (which includes turning the image upside down).

The eyes | Protecting sight | Sightsavers.

Because the front part of the eye is curved, it bends the light, creating an upside down image on the retina. The brain eventually turns the image the right way up.

So when we're in the body, the material brain is clearly involved. But when we die, and they separate, the soul appears quite capable of undertaking these functions itself. Which means that people with brain damage or dementia will no longer be subject to those limitations as they will leave their damaged brains behind.

The eternal danger for them though is that if they didn't repent of their sins while they were still in a sound frame of mind, they won't be able to repent as they won't remember them.

Christ said when He died (Luke 23.46) NIV "Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last."

LIkewise Stephen when he being stoned cried out (Acts 7:59 NIV) "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”"

 

[Andrewn]

Post #25 does not address the makeup of the soul at all... Nor does it refer to the issue of the human spirit.

You're right that post #25 doesn't refer to the issue of the human spirit. But it does describe the biblical view of the soul. I just saw post #40, which also describes a biblical view of the soul. (Plz see my comment in the post below.)

 

[Andrewn]

For obvious reasons I'm a dualist - soul and body - but I have no idea how soul and body interact while we're still in the flesh.

Christ said when He died (Luke 23.46) NIV "Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last."

LIkewise Stephen when he being stoned cried out (Acts 7:59 NIV) "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”"

You see that both Jesus and Stephen talk about their "spirit" not their "soul." You are a dichotomist. Spirit and soul are indeed the same, if we use Plato's definitions. But if we want to use biblical definitions, they are not. Most people call themselves trichotomists. But they're really dichotomists because they believe the soul and the spirit are joined and share a similar fate in afterlife.

 

[Bob Crowley]

As far as I'm concerned, the soul and spirit are the same thing - two names for the same bird, just as the "body" and the "flesh" are two words for the same thing.

We have a body and we have a soul or spirit, depending on your etymological preference.

 

[Andrewn]

As far as I'm concerned, the soul and spirit are the same thing - two names for the same bird, just as the "body" and the "flesh" are two words for the same thing. We have a body and we have a soul or spirit, depending on your etymological preference.

You're in good company. Millions of people have believed this since Plato wrote about it (429–347 BC). Recent scientific evidence that functions typically attributed to the soul are really due to chemical and physical changes in the brain (which supports the biblical view), does not matter to them.

 

[RileyG]

Humans are body *and* soul. Soul is the breath of life. the very essence

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Just a point of scripture to chew on.

1Th 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul seems to be listing them as separate parts.

Again in Hebrews, the soul and spirit are divided and so would not seem to be the same thing.


Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Blessings in Him.

 

[Andrewn]

Your soul does not cease to exist at death - it does not die.. so you still exist even though your body is merely dust at some point.

What is your belief about the human spirit after death? Does it retain any sort of consciousness?

 

[Andrewn]

Paul seems to be listing them as separate parts.

Again in Hebrews, the soul and spirit are divided and so would not seem to be the same thing.

People argue about whether the soul and spirit are the same or separate parts. This ultimately doesn't make any difference if both are believed to be conscious after death, or if both are unconscious after death. Whether they are the same or different, their fate is the same.

The verses you quoted, OTOH, suggest a real difference.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

People argue about whether the soul and spirit are the same or separate parts. This ultimately doesn't make any difference if both are believed to be conscious after death, or if both are unconscious after death. Whether they are the same or different, their fate is the same.

The verses you quoted, OTOH, suggest a real difference.

Yes, and it seems that they are integrated to such a degree that any boundary between them would be as difficult as separating a joint and marrow, which are very much infused together in the body.

 

[BobRyan]

What is your belief about the human spirit after death? Does it retain any sort of consciousness?

Jesus said "our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" Jonn 11 - so I take that as Jesus' position on whether their friend Lazarus himself (the person) - was actually awake or not. The disciples then say that if the person Lazarus is sleeping after having been so sick -- we should not disturb him and let him get healthful sleep. Jesus then says "LAZARUS IS dead" - showing that what is sleeping is not the body of Lazarus... it is in fact dead.

Paul says in 1 Thess 4:13-18 that the dead in Christ have "fallen asleep in Jesus" so I take that as his position on whether those loved ones were "awake" or not.

 

[BobRyan]

People argue about whether the soul and spirit are the same or separate parts. This ultimately doesn't make any difference if both are believed to be conscious after death, or if both are unconscious after death. Whether they are the same or different, their fate is the same.

I agree. I think that the spirit and the soul are the same thing some texts and terms used interchangably but at other times they have a different context. So then a "living soul" is always someone in the Bible that has the spirit and body joined. But a dormant sleeping "person" (as in one who is dead" ) is always one where the spirit and body are not joined and the person is dormant.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ecc 12
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

 

[Andrewn]

Jesus said "our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" Jonn 11 - so I take that as Jesus' position on whether their friend Lazarus himself (the person) - was actually awake or not.

There is no disagreement that the word "soul" in the Bible is frequently used to describe the whole being. Depending on the context, however, there are other meanings for soul (post #22).

So then a "living soul" is always someone in the Bible that has the spirit and body joined.

1) The expression "living soul" / "nephesh chayyah" is frequently used of animals: Gen 1:20, 21, 24, 30; 2:19; 9:4, 10, 12, 15, 16.

2) The soul is in the blood:

Gen 9:4 “Only you shall not eat flesh with its soul, that is, its blood.

Lev 17:11 ‘For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the soul that makes atonement.’

Deu 12:23 “Only be sure not to eat the blood, for the blood is the soul, and you shall not eat the soul with the flesh.

Act 15:29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Conclusion: The biblical evidence presented above (that animals have souls and that the soul is in the blood) is consistent with your view regarding soul sleep after death but it does not mean at all that the spirit is unconscious after death (post #53).

 

[Andrewn]

it seems that they are integrated to such a degree that any boundary between them would be as difficult as separating a joint and marrow, which are very much infused together in the body.

Soul and spirit are closely integrated during life, but not necessarily in the intermediate period before the resurrection (posts 53 & 54).

 

[BobRyan]

Conclusion: The biblical evidence presented above (that animals have souls and that the soul is in the blood) is consistent with your view regarding soul sleep after death but it does not mean at all that the spirit is unconscious after death (post #53).

Matt 10:28 the soul survives death but the body with its blood - does not.

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul as the "person" then is what is awake or asleep in death... the body is dust and dust does not have a "sleep function". dust is simply dust.

Eccl 12:7 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Gen 3:
19 By the sweat of your face
You shall eat bread,
Until you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

That includes the blood that is in the body - it too returns to dust and has no wake or sleep function in death..

Deut 12:23 NASB 23 Only be sure not to eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.

Lev 17:10 ‘And anyone from the house of Israel, or from the strangers who reside among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats the blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’

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Jesus said "our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" Jonn 11 - so I take that as Jesus' position on whether their friend Lazarus himself (the person) - was actually awake or not. The disciples then say that if the person Lazarus is sleeping after having been so sick -- we should not disturb him and let him get healthful sleep. Jesus then says "LAZARUS IS dead" - showing that what is sleeping is not the body of Lazarus... it is in fact dead.

Paul says in 1 Thess 4:13-18 that the dead in Christ have "fallen asleep in Jesus" so I take that as his position on whether those loved ones were "awake" or not.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

It is "those WHO" have fallen asleep.. that is the person themselves not merely the body since the body does not sleep in death - rather it returns to dust.

And no text says you are 'two persons' - one being the person of your soul and another being the person of your spirit.

================

Most people will agree that if you regularly donate blood to the blood bank - your spirit is not now living in 20 other people, and people that have full blood exchange transfusions are not some other person where their soul is person-A but their blood is the spirit of person-B with its own consciousness..

 

[Andrewn]

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul as the "person" then is what is awake or asleep in death... the body is dust and dust does not have a "sleep function". dust is simply dust.

As I said before, "There is no disagreement that the word "soul" in the Bible is frequently used to describe the whole being." But after death, the soul departs the body:

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul was departing (for she died),that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

1Ki 17:21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I prayYou, let this child’s soul return to him.”


Conclusion:The Bible does not describe the soul as the whole person after death. And this is clear in Mat 10:28.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1Ki 17:21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I prayYou, let this child’s soul return to him.”

I just checked the septuagint and the text uses the word 'life' rather than 'soul'...

So i am not sure that the distinctions between spirit soul and life are sufficiently distinctive in the original text to build a robust theology - but I am happy to be proved wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

As I said before, "There is no disagreement that the word "soul" in the Bible is frequently used to describe the whole being." But after death, the soul departs the body:

That is where you and I agree.

Conclusion:The Bible does not describe the soul as the whole person after death. And this is clear in Mat 10:28.

Agreed again.

I noted that here -

Matt 10:28 the soul survives death but the body with its blood - does not. .

But the soul is "the person" all the same. It is just that for a living soul - it is the person having spirit and body joined... and souls that are asleep or that have not "Come to life" is the case of a person whose body is dead.

Rev 20:
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years

The dormant state described in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11 is that state of the soul of a person who has died and whose body is returning to dust - where that person has not yet been resurrected so the soul has not yet "come to life" (no bodily resurrection has happened to it yet).

 

[Andrewn]

I just checked the septuagint and the text uses the word 'life' rather than 'soul'...

So i am not sure that the distinctions between spirit soul and life are sufficiently distinctive in the original text to build a robust theology - but I am happy to be proved wrong.

I checked the septuagint, the English translation says "life." But the Greek (G5590) like the Hebrew, is "soul."

1 Kings 17:21 And he breathed into the boy three times, and he called upon the lord, and he said, O lord my God, return indeed the life of this boy to him!

I don't have a problem with rendering "soul" as "life." What I have a problem with the suggestion that it means "person."