Function of the soul

[Vap841]

I like your analysis as it relates to the connection between the soul and the body. But I'm not sure about the connection of the soul and the will. Also, where do the id, ego, and superego fit in this picture? Is the soul equivalent to the id or to the ego?

One thing I like about your analysis is that it ignores Plato's definition of the soul and attempts to connect the concept of the soul to modern psychology which, I believe, is also a more biblical approach.

I never really got into psychology so I’m not familiar with those distinctions among non-physical traits, I pretty much just focus on the broad divide between physical & non-physical human traits (Physicalism vs Dualism). I almost always use soul, will, and mind interchangeably to refer to that which is inaccessible to empirical verification. However I will sometimes use “Soul” like Aristotle does, as an exhaustive list of absolutely anything that can describe an entity (both physical and non-physical), but mostly I feel like the context allows me to use “Soul” to just refer to only the non-physical descriptions on that exhaustive list.

The OP looks to me like a description of Physicalism.

 

[Andrewn]

Because an understanding was given to a man before Jesus came doesn't make it wrong.

Please explain how this understanding is not supported by Scripture.

Plato's psychology was accepted by many pre-Christian Jews, like Philo of Alexandria, and by many early Church Fathers. To this day, the Tripartite view of human beings is quite common in church. So, Watchman Nee is certainly in good company. I read his book "The Spiritual Man" very early on and still have it in my library. I respect Watchman Nee as a saint and still like his contribution to the definition of "Spirit." But I've come to see his definitions of the "flesh" and the "soul" as both biblically incorrect and incompatible with modern science.

What Plato, Watchman Nee, and many others describe as the "soul" is talked about in the Bible as the "heart." The words for "soul" in the Bible are Hebrew "nephesh" and Greek "psyche." The biblical meaning for these words is best explained on the websites of "creation.com) which is a very respectable Australian organization with branches all over the world. In summary, this is what "nephesh" and "psyche" mean in the Bible:

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
   1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
      
      
   2. living being
      
      
   3. living being (with life in the blood)
      
      
   4. the man himself, self, person or individual
      
      
   5. seat of the appetites
      
      
   6. seat of emotions and passions
      
      
   7. activity of mind
      1. dubious
   8. activity of the will
      1. dubious
   9. activity of the character
      1. dubious

Comment: As you can see, it is dubious that "soul" refers to the activity of the mind, will, or character in the Bible.

A couple of years ago, a South African neuroscientist on Christian TV upheld a modified Tripartite view, talking of human beings as spirit, mind, and body. I don't have a problem with this. She never mentioned the "soul." You may think that "mind" refers to the "soul." I think that "mind" refers to the "heart." Both of us can agree on how she described humans. The question is: what did she actually mean by mind ?

 

[Andrewn]

I almost always use soul, will, and mind interchangeably to refer to that which is inaccessible to empirical verification. However I will sometimes use “Soul” like Aristotle does, as an exhaustive list of absolutely anything that can describe an entity (both physical and non-physical),

Using the word "soul" to describe human beings (both physical and non-physical) is certainly attested in the Bible. Other times, "soul" is used specifically to describe emotions, at least a subset of basic emotions.

If we are to adhere to biblical usage, we have to believe that animals have "soul." Volition, being a human quality cannot be in the "soul." You would perhaps agree that animals have an instinct rather than a will per se.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think that "mind" refers to the "heart."

By "heat" are you not speaking in metaphor for deeper mental & emotional processes? Or do you mean the literal heart that pumps blood?

 

[BobRyan]

This is something I've been pondering for a while now. Assuming it actually exists, what role does the soul play in everyday life? The way I see it, we humans experience life through the activities of our bodies. We see with our eyes. We think with our brains, and so forth. I really am not sure what part the soul would have in that process.

What do you all think?

In some Bible contexts - Your soul "is you"

1 Peter 3:20
who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

If you lose a finger or an arm in a car accident your body is diminished but your soul is still a full 100% soul undiminished. "you" are still "you".

Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Your soul does not cease to exist at death - it does not die.. so you still exist even though your body is merely dust at some point.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

John 11:
11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died, 15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let’s go to him.”

 

[Andrewn]

By "heat" are you not speaking in metaphor for deeper mental & emotional processes? Or do you mean the literal heart that pumps blood?

Not the pump. The heart is used in the Bible as the center for deeper mental & emotional processes, as you said.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Not the pump. The heart is used in the Bible as the center for deeper mental & emotional processes, as you said.

As core self. "Core" coming from Latin cor "heart".

 

[dms1972]

Plato's psychology was accepted by many pre-Christian Jews, like Philo of Alexandria, and by many early Church Fathers. To this day, the Tripartite view of human beings is quite common in church. So, Watchman Nee is certainly in good company. I read his book "The Spiritual Man" very early on and still have it in my library. I respect Watchman Nee as a saint and still like his contribution to the definition of "Spirit." But I've come to see his definitions of the "flesh" and the "soul" as both biblically incorrect and incompatible with modern science.



Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
   1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
      
      
   2. living being
      
      
   3. living being (with life in the blood)
      
      
   4. the man himself, self, person or individual
      
      
   5. seat of the appetites
      
      
   6. seat of emotions and passions
      
      
   7. activity of mind
      1. dubious
   8. activity of the will
      1. dubious
   9. activity of the character
      1. dubious

You head the list you gave as Outline of Biblical usage, however you provide no Biblical references, and no exegesis whatsoever, how then is your list an "outline of biblical usage"? or even an attempt towards that - What does the question mark signify? Are you hoping someone else will look up biblical references for you?

 

[dms1972]

This is something I've been pondering for a while now. Assuming it actually exists, what role does the soul play in everyday life? The way I see it, we humans experience life through the activities of our bodies. We see with our eyes. We think with our brains, and so forth. I really am not sure what part the soul would have in that process.

What do you all think?

How many times do you come back to this topic? What have you read on the subject, why hasn't it helped you? - and what was wrong with it?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Plato's psychology was accepted by many pre-Christian Jews, like Philo of Alexandria, and by many early Church Fathers. To this day, the Tripartite view of human beings is quite common in church. So, Watchman Nee is certainly in good company. I read his book "The Spiritual Man" very early on and still have it in my library. I respect Watchman Nee as a saint and still like his contribution to the definition of "Spirit." But I've come to see his definitions of the "flesh" and the "soul" as both biblically incorrect and incompatible with modern science.

What Plato, Watchman Nee, and many others describe as the "soul" is talked about in the Bible as the "heart." The words for "soul" in the Bible are Hebrew "nephesh" and Greek "psyche." The biblical meaning for these words is best explained on the websites of "creation.com) which is a very respectable Australian organization with branches all over the world. In summary, this is what "nephesh" and "psyche" mean in the Bible:

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
   1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
      
      
   2. living being
      
      
   3. living being (with life in the blood)
      
      
   4. the man himself, self, person or individual
      
      
   5. seat of the appetites
      
      
   6. seat of emotions and passions
      
      
   7. activity of mind
      1. dubious
   8. activity of the will
      1. dubious
   9. activity of the character
      1. dubious

Comment: As you can see, it is dubious that "soul" refers to the activity of the mind, will, or character in the Bible.

A couple of years ago, a South African neuroscientist on Christian TV upheld a modified Tripartite view, talking of human beings as spirit, mind, and body. I don't have a problem with this. She never mentioned the "soul." You may think that "mind" refers to the "soul." I think that "mind" refers to the "heart." Both of us can agree on how she described humans. The question is: what did she actually mean by mind ?

I know who you refer to and have misgivings about her presentation and credentials.

We seem to have a mentality that claims Scripture is to be an exclusive source of Truth and insight from any other source is evil and deceptive.

Scripture itself refers to it's own incompleteness yet folks are reluctant to see that God is working with mankind on a wider front.

Paul on Mars Hill starts his address with what they understood - not initially Scripture - this builds a bridge of reason and is much more effective than proclaiming totally foriegn concepts from the get go.

So we need to process Plato against Scripture and not ignore on the basis of source.

 

[com7fy8]

There is a consensus among many that "I am a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body."

My opinion is we are spirits, and our soul is our experiencing self which is of our spirit. But of course our soul is not always conscious, like if we are sleeping and not dreaming. And our spirit experiences what's happening in our physical bodies. Our bodies are made of unconscious material, but our spirit can feel what's happening in our bodies . . . how God pleases.

I have come to think that "I am a soul, I have a spirit, and live in a body."
This is because when I say "I," it is my soul that is talking.
My soul, that is me, is the conscious part of me.

Yes I think our soul is conscious and making choices, but it is spiritual, the conscious part of our spirit.

I can reach into my spirit and detect it.

The spiritual you can; so it is the spirit you reaching to your spirit you, I would say.

I can submit to my body, and allow myself to be led around by it.

But your physical body can not have life without your spirit. So, I would say your body is subject to the spirit you. So, in case you feel being subject to your body, that could just mean you are giving in to how you want to feel.

But in this life, my soul is me.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

My opinion is we are spirits, and our soul is our experiencing self which is of our spirit. But of course our soul is not always conscious, like if we are sleeping and not dreaming. And our spirit experiences what's happening in our physical bodies. Our bodies are made of unconscious material, but our spirit can feel what's happening in our bodies . . . how God pleases.
Yes I think our soul is conscious and making choices, but it is spiritual, the conscious part of our spirit.The spiritual you can; so it is the spirit you reaching to your spirit you, I would say.But your physical body can not have life without your spirit. So, I would say your body is subject to the spirit you. So, in case you feel being subject to your body, that could just mean you are giving in to how you want to feel.

Thanks for your input!
Watchman Nee has an excellent book on the subject. It is a 3 part series "The Spiritual Man."

 

[Andrewn]

You head the list you gave as Outline of Biblical usage, however you provide no Biblical references, and no exegesis whatsoever, how then is your list an "outline of biblical usage"? or even an attempt towards that - What does the question mark signify? Are you hoping someone else will look up biblical references for you?

Did you think I came out with this outline of biblical usage? The Outline of Biblical Usage was created by Larry Pierce, creator of the Online Bible, and is used with permission. For further information on this tool, click here. It is based on standard Hebrew and Greek Lexicons.

 

[Andrewn]

I know who you refer to and have misgivings about her presentation and credentials.

We seem to have a mentality that claims Scripture is to be an exclusive source of Truth and insight from any other source is evil and deceptive.

Scripture itself refers to it's own incompleteness yet folks are reluctant to see that God is working with mankind on a wider front.

Paul on Mars Hill starts his address with what they understood - not initially Scripture - this builds a bridge of reason and is much more effective than proclaiming totally foriegn concepts from the get go.

So we need to process Plato against Scripture and not ignore on the basis of source.

You didn't understand a single word in my reply. So be it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You didn't understand a single word in my reply. So be it.

Please explain why you conclude this...

 

[dms1972]

What about Oswald Chamber's Biblical Psychology?

He has chapters on: Man, Soul, Heart, Ourselves, and Spirit

In regards to Soul he has sections on:

Fundamental Powers of the Soul
Fleshly presentation of the Soul
Past, Present and Future of the Soul

 

[dms1972]

The Psalmist often speaks as follows :

"Why art though cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God; for I shall yet praise Him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God"

Psalms 42:11

What does this tell us?

 

[Andrewn]

Please explain why you conclude this...

Plato was a genius, but he did not present a biblical view of the soul. Perhaps a first step would be to address post #25, which presents a very biblical view of the soul.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Plato was a genius, but he did not present a biblical view of the soul. Perhaps a first step would be to address post #25, which presents a very biblical view of the soul.

Post #25 does not address the makeup of the soul at all...

Nor does it refer to the issue of the human spirit.

 

[dms1972]

This is something I've been pondering for a while now. Assuming it actually exists, what role does the soul play in everyday life? The way I see it, we humans experience life through the activities of our bodies. We see with our eyes. We think with our brains, and so forth. I really am not sure what part the soul would have in that process.

Chambers comments that: "In the Bible the soul is connected and identified with breath and blood - two fleshly, physical things. In Genesis 9:4 blood and soul are alternate terms, they are identified completely, and the verses in God's Book that prove this are innumerable. When the blood is spilt, the soul is gone; when the breath is taken, the soul is gone. The whole life of a man consists physically in his breath and in his blood. The soul in working itself into the blood never fails to impart to it the peculiar character of its own life. This psychologically is brought out very clearly by our Lord's statement in John 6:53 - "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you."

Spirit as soul-making power : "We are dealing here particularly with spirit in the natural man. Remember, the whole meaning of the soul is to express the spirit, and the struggle of spirit is to get itself expressed in the soul. In the natural life when an immature mind is trying to express itself, there are tremendous struggles and all kinds of physical exertions and efforts. It has no responsible intelligence, no vocabulary; when a child gets into tempers, it is often an attempt to express itself. When a young life is trying to express itself, it experiences exquisite suffering; music is run to, theatres are run to, literature is run to - anything to try and get the power to express what is there in longing - and if a life goes on too long on these lines, it will never form a responsible intelligence, but will become most unpractical. The discipline of the machinery of life enables us to get the power to express what is in us. That is the value of language. There is a great difference in languages; for instance, take the language of the Authorized Version of the Bible and the language we use to-day. The words of the Bible express the inner soul; the words we use to-day are nearly all technical, borrowed from somewhere else, and our most modern words do not express the spirit at all, but cunningly cloak it over and give no expression."

Quotes from Chamber's Biblical Psychology.