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Fun with the Flood math.

Frumious Bandersnatch

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TrueCreation said:
--Because, just maybe, it could be correct.

--Because then I would have to ignore the geologic data.

--150 years ago, runaway subduction could never have been hypothesized either with what we know about mineral physics.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
You and all YECs are already ignoring all the geologic data that falsify the worldwide flood as has been pointed out several times.

http://www.christianforums.com/t41209&page=1

http://www.christianforums.com/t36392

http://www.christianforums.com/t36270

http://www.christianforums.com/t36254

http://christianforums.com/t50735

http://christianforums.com/t50900

http://christianforums.com/t52191

Of course you are also ignoring paleontology and many other falsifications of the worldwide flood.

Thinking that some modern method of earth study is going to somehow rescue this long falsified myth is no more logical than thinking that modern chemistry will somehow come up with a method to resurrect phlogiston as the cause of combustion.

The frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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TrueCreation said:
--lol, um. no, they are busy doing research and i doubt they have time to sit on the computer and talk in forums, I won't have time to either in a couple years.

--Why don't you just give them a call, or e-mail them?

--I doubt it. Please support your statment.


Cheers,
-Chris Grose
Have you read the article??? They clearly describe the several different YEC claims as to what is flood and post flood. Then there is this.

"This is because the uniformitarian rock column emphasis is on evolutionary biology"
The geologic column was of course developed independantly of evolution and this is just nonsense.

Then there is this.
The Flood/post-Flood boundary is defined environmentally by the subsidence of high-energy Flood events and the transition into more “uniformitarian” depositional patterns, rather than by correlation to a uniformitarian boundary “golden spike.”
Do you really think there are places all over the world where there is are only "high energy" flood deposits underlying only "low energy" post flood deposits? Here is a link to Glenn Morton's page on the geologic column in North Dakota.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/

Can you use Froede and Reed's method to tell us where the flood layers start and stop here? One would think that the black shale just above the Cambrian must be a low energy deposit. Shales are fine grained and require long "uniformitarian" time to settle out. Now all you have to do is figure out how about 14,000 feet of geologic column including all those Mississippian crinoids and the various thick salt layers got deposited post flood.

The frumious Bandersnatch
 
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J

Jet Black

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
Thinking that some modern method of earth study is going to somehow rescue this long falsified myth is no more logical than thinking that modern chemistry will somehow come up with a method to resurrect phlogiston as the cause of combustion.

The frumious Bandersnatch
hey, I had a good idea about phlogiston






err... no I didn't.
 
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Arikay

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Others seem to be covering everything else, so I thought I would cover this.

The importance of literal scripture supporting your ideas is the basis of creationism. You are assuming a global flood because you are taking the scripture literally.

Since creationism is so stuck on taking scripture literally, we must make sure they do this at every turn, to do otherwise would break the very basis of many creationist organizations (the basis being that the bible is the literal inerrant god breathed truth).

To deviate from it to much would be to add to that scripture and not take it literal anymore.


So lets look at your references.

"fountains of the great deep"
For the activity you are describing, this seems like a very short explination. The activity would be at least as horrible as the rain. Yet the rain gets much more book time than the fountains. In a book that goes down to the detail of god closing the ark doors, you would assume they would have written a bit more about all of this activity.

"Psalm 104: 7-10"
Looking at the psalms we see they have nothing to do with your hypothesis.

**
"Psa 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as [with] a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
**
Psa 104:7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
**
Psa 104:8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them."​

The Psalms are talking about the Water. Not the mountains going up or down but the water. At gods command they receded, they fled.


TrueCreation said:
--You have asserted that you think mountain building and plates moving around at such velocities as CPT postulates creates a problem with heat. I have responded to this. Will you acknowledge the feasiblity of my explanation or would you like to continue tumbling on this idea?

--The "fountains of the great deep" I think is indicative of sea-floor spreading. Psalm 104: 7-10 also seems to indicate that the mountains rose and the valleys sank down. While ultimately this does matter, the feasibility of runaway subduction and CPT is not dependent on whether it is suggested in scripture, IMO.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
 
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Arikay

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Nope. You have two statements:

1) God did it.

2) Venus disapeared.

They are disconnected and each needs to be falsified. The first one cannot be falsified, the second one can.


Just like in the statement,
"God created a global flood approx 4500 years ago."

1) God created. (Unfalsifiable)

2) Global flood approx 4500 years ago. (falsifiable)


TrueCreation said:
--I think you have been talking to far too many hovindites. Just because God did something, doesn't mean there is no longer potential falsification. For example. If God just so happened to make Venus disappear from space, we can refer to previous documentation and evidence of its existence, and then when we look and find that Venus is no longer there and just disappeared, that would suggest just maybe that God did it.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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The question of the YECs total inability to indentify which strata are flood deposits has come up here but I suggest any further discussion of the subject be done on the thread that Joe has just opened.

http://www.christianforums.com/t62311

The frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Risen Tree

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Arikay said:
This is a fun look at the great flood based on the literal interpretation of the bible and our current study of the earth.
Please feel free to check and correct any math mistakes I make. :)

Math of the flood:
The bible says the flood covered every mountain. Mount Everest is the current largest mountain. Its approx 5.5 miles above sea level. I have rounded it down to 5 miles because the earth is bumpy and its better to under estimate than over estimate.
There are some theories that mountains weren’t as high as they are now, and that the flood only flooded a 17,000 foot high mountain. However there are flaws to both of these, and ill address them later.
The Radius of the Earth = 3963 miles
The Radius of the earth with 5 miles of water = 3968 Miles.
The volume of the earth = 260711882973.3396 cubic miles
The volume of the earth with water = 261699925947.5533 cubic miles.
261699925947.5533 - 260711882973.3396 = 988042974.2136999965

So the volume of the flood water = 988,042,974.2136999965 cubic miles. But lets round it to 988,042,974 Cubic Miles.
If this water was put into a sphere, it would have a radius of 618 Miles.

According to this site (http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthwherewater.html) there is a total of 326,000,000 Cubic Miles of water on the earth. So the flood waters were 3 times the total amount of water on the entire earth.
The data says there there is approx 9,016,000 Cubic Miles of water that is currently underground or not filling a space on the surface (like an ocean). These sources of water would include Ground water, soil moisture, and ice caps and glaciers.

The bible says that some of the water came from the ground and some from rain. So if we gave the bible the benefit of the doubt and said that 10x more water resided under ground then, than it does now (10 times more water in the soil and ground water) and that the ice caps melted. We would get 27,160,000 cubic miles of water. It would still only equal 3% of the total flood waters.

Lets take a look at a square foot section of the earth. Over the course of 40 days, it would rain 25608 cubic feet(instead of 26400 cubic feet because of the 792 feet of ground water). We can use this data because we are dealing with a 25608 foot, by 1 foot by 1 foot column.

25608 ft^3 / 40 days = 640.2 cubic feet of water per day per square foot
640.2 ft^3 / 24 hours = 26.7 cubic feet of water per hour per square foot
2.6.7 ft^3 / 60 minutes = 0.4 cubic feet of water per minute per square foot. Or 3 gallons of water per minute per square foot.
That would equal 25.5 pounds of water per minute per square foot.
It doesn’t seem like too much water at first, but lets look at it outside of a square foot.
A standard american football field is 360 ft x 160ft (including end zones). 57,600 square feet.
So that would be 0.4 ft^3 * 57,600 = 23,040 cubic feet of water per minute on the football field. Or 172,351 Gallons of water. That would weigh 1,464,983.5 pounds or 732.5 tons of water per minute, will fall on that football field.

The ark is said to be 300 cubits long, by 50 cubits wide. The dictionary definition of a cubit says that its between 17” and 22” so ill use the average of those at 19.5” so the ark was approx 487.5 feet long 81.25 feet wide. Or 39,731.25 square feet. Assuming that the top of the ark was the same approx square footage. That would mean that 15,892.5 cubic feet of water would fall on the ark per minute or 118,884 Gallons per minute. Or 505 tons of water per minute falling on the ark.

After the flood, it was said that a dove brought back an olive leaf. Olive trees grow at the utmost of 5000ft. The weight and power of the flood would probably have destroyed olive trees. The few leaves that would remain would have settled down in the mud.

There are quite a few more problems with the flood, but this is getting rather long so I think ill cut it rather short.


Flood Theories:

I have heard a couple different flood theories about why the literal flood could have happened. None that I have heard so far hold any water. :)

First: Is that the flood, flooded only high hills, and yet it covered the entire earth because there were no big mountains before the flood. The flood water then somehow formed all the mountains.
There are a couple problems with this. First of all, animal fossils of different dates layer these mountains If the mountains formed from a small hill all at once, then every animal fossil should be around the same date. Second, the earthquakes and geological disasters of the formation of these mountains would be catastrophic. Much more compared to the flood. Both science and the bible lack any reference to a giant catastrophic earthquake and formation of 5.5 mile mountains. So its pretty safe to say that these mountains were there during the flood.

Second: The flood only flooded the top of a 17,000 high mountain.
This would mean that area was left on the earth. So taking the bible literally, god didn’t actually cover the entire earth. Nor would the flood secure the death of every animal and man on the planet, as there was still land left for them to run too. Most would die, but a few could remain.

Third: Animals on the ark were taken as babies, so they could fit them all on board.
There are a couple problems with this. First of all, there are quite a few animals that need their mothers to take care of them. This would increase the work load on Noah's family to way beyond the ability of 8 people. To act as a constant parent to many, many babies.
The second problem comes from the fact that many animals learn how to act when they are young. Being held in a captive environment for part of their young days would possibly hinder their ability to live in the real world.The ark was only floating for half a year, however that could be enough to effect some animal babies. However, an adult animal would still remember how to live in the real world and it wouldn’t have an effect.

Fourth: Only a small amount of animals were taken aboard, many micro evolved afterwards.
This wouldn't work. Basic Science categorizes a species as an animal that cant breed succefully with another species (there are some species that can, however it doesn't create good results). So every single species on earth, Must have been on the ark. Unless creationists want to concede that macro evolution is possible.

I think this has become long enough. :)

-Ari
Here is another way to look at this. Assume that 5 miles of rainwater covers the earth during the flood. The amount of rainfall that comes from a rainstorm is IIRC the ratio of volume per surface, which reduces to linear distance. So the rate of rainfall, measured as distance per time, is 5 miles in 40 days. This converts to 330 inches per hour.* To compare, the most violent storms on the planet can dump almost an inch per hour. This may sound weak, but remember that any rainfall of about 3 inches or more in one day is guaranteed to cause flash-flooding in relatively flat urban areas.

So in other words, the rainstorm was 330 times as violent as the worst storms of our day. YECs at this point may counter that the atmosphere was structured differently than it is now. OK. If it was a stable atmosphere incapable of producing rain, then how did it magically produce a global thunderstorm 330X as intense as our worst thunderstorms of our day? But let's assume that the atmosphere was capable of it. If so, the height of the clouds would be absolutely unfathomable.

layers.gif


This graphic from aerospaceweb.org shows the temperature structure of the current atmosphere. The staggered line illustrates the stability of differing layers of the atmosphere. Note that the air is warmer in the lower part of the troposphere, making it unstable; by contrast, the temperature of the stable stratosphere increases with height. This is why all meteorological events occur below the tropapause.

Now, in order for the massive clouds needed for our 330 in/h rain to form, the tropapause must be enormously high. Regardless of what scale you use, there is not nearly enough atmosphere to work with. If you use a linear scale, the tropopause extends out to 3300 km, which is approximately 30 times past the generally accepted upper limit of the atmosphere. If you use a more realistic scale based on the fact that the upper atmosphere is much less dense, you might use a square root scale, which places the cloudtops at 1.09e6 km, nearly 3 times further than the distance from Earth to the moon.

Let's assume that the 3300 km cloudtop model is the correct one. There are so many physical and meteorological problems with it that I don't have time to get into them all. First and foremost, most of the clouds would be in outer space and would vaporize before they ever got a chance to form. Secondly is the amount of energy needed to create clouds this high; most of this energy would dissipate into outer space, requiring even bigger clouds that might have reached who knows how much higher up. But even if all these elements somehow came into place, there remains yet another problem. The spin of Earth's rotation would cause the storm to eventually be torn apart unless it was constantly reseeded in outer space, much like the continuous reseeding of a hurricane. Unfortunately, outer space doesn't have this, and as far as I know, there is zero evidence from any source to indicate that an insurmountable amount of water came surging toward Earth from outer space.

Now unless someone has some evidence to refute all of this, I'm seriously starting to consider that it is not only YEC but Noah's Flood that is an literary allegory.

* -- 5mi/40days * 5280 ft/mi * 12 in/ft * 1 day/24 hr = 330 in/hr
 
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Arikay

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Very interesting, thanks for the info.

One thing to mention about Modern YEC, is that it basically stands on the foundation of the global flood being literal. It is used as an escuse for so many things that without it, most of their arguments fall apart, such as radiometric dating being flawed, etc.
 
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Arikay

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Yes, you believe its litteral, but creationism says its science, and in science there needs to be more than a belief that ones right. For example, the distortion of radiometric dating, you can *believe* it was distorted all you want, but without evidence to back up the claim, its not much in science. Just like you can *believe* the earth is flat, or spherical, or doughnut shape, but its the evidence that supports and falsifies your belief thats important in science.

So, while you can believe that the global flood happend all you want, which is fine, the problem is when groups start claiming that science shows it happend, as that is just not true.

Alessandro said:
We Trust it is literal. But this disagreement in views is not the biggest issue, there is something else that is the basis for the rest of one's existense.
 
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TrueCreation

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Rising Tree said:
Here is another way to look at this. Assume that 5 miles of rainwater covers the earth during the flood. The amount of rainfall that comes from a rainstorm is IIRC the ratio of volume per surface, which reduces to linear distance. So the rate of rainfall, measured as distance per time, is 5 miles in 40 days. This converts to 330 inches per hour.* To compare, the most violent storms on the planet can dump almost an inch per hour. This may sound weak, but remember that any rainfall of about 3 inches or more in one day is guaranteed to cause flash-flooding in relatively flat urban areas.

[Snip]
--Only applicable if we assume that eustasy is only a function of rainfall and not isostatic balancing during a phase of runaway subduction.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
 
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JGMEERT

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TrueCreation said:
--and not isostatic balancing during a phase of runaway subduction.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
JM: Yes, it's very easy to invent scenarios for which you have no evidence! You are quite enamored with CPT, but have so far failed to accept the young earth corrolary attached to CPT of Baumgardner. What you are doing is building a house made of (imaginary) cards. You can't continue to pile up assertions on a premise for which there is no physical evidence. If you want to accept CPT in the time frame proposed by Baumgardner AND couple it to an old earth, you've got a lot to explain. If you want to adopt CPT and a young earth, you've got even more to explain. However, the first thing is to provide some evidence in support of the model. So far, there is none! In fact, there is not even much in the way of predicting what we should observe in CPT! Do us all a favor, don't answer questions by building upon unsupported propositions, it's really kind of a time waste! Work on your model. Refine it, offer some tests of the model. Once you've built evidence for your model, you can use it to answer questions like these.

Cheers

Joe Meert
 
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Risen Tree

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TrueCreation said:
--Only applicable if we assume that eustasy is only a function of rainfall and not isostatic balancing during a phase of runaway subduction.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose
10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month-on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

--from Genesis 7
This sounds like rain to me.
 
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JGMEERT

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Sheseala said:
Not just where it went, what it did. If there were 17,000 feet of water, the stress on the ground would be 530.4 tons per square foot. *squish*
JM: TEchnically speaking, that's not really a big deal. Static stress is defined as

pgh (p=density, g=gravitational acceleration, h=height).

Assuming 5200 meters of water (~17,000 feet), the stress is only 5.2 x 10[sup]7[/sup] Pascals. Compare that value to the stress placed on the base of an oceanic lithosphere 50 kilometers thick. That's 1.4 x 10[sup]9[/sup] Pascals. In essence, the stress due to the water column is trivial compared to the overlying rock. Now, there are certainly OTHER problems associated with the flood, but stress is not all that important.

Cheers

Joe Meert
 
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