Fullness of the Gentiles

dfw69 · Nov 12, 2013

ebedmelech said:
Indeed!

That's because this is NOT only for Israel...but the church also. Isn't it Peter that calls believers a royal priesthood? It is not messianic. This prophecy has multiple applications such as salvation, the witness of the church, and final judgement.

A "messianic prophecy" is designated as such because it refers to Jesus ministry and crucifixion.

It does not end at the cross for me.... Jesus has more to do...when new Jerusalem arrives and rev 21 is complete... Then the prophecies end for me

Interplanner · Nov 12, 2013

Yes, God is going to do more things, but as you may have noticed in Rev, the millions in heaven are not singing 'worthy is the Lion who pounded the enemies of Israel' (if that is going to be the case; I don't know), but rather 'worthy is the Lamb who was slain and has redeemed...'

Messy · Nov 12, 2013

Interplanner said:
Yes, God is going to do more things, but as you may have noticed in Rev, the millions in heaven are not singing 'worthy is the Lion who pounded the enemies of Israel' (if that is going to be the case; I don't know), but rather 'worthy is the Lamb who was slain and has redeemed...'

Yes, millions of muslims are getting saved now. It's time for revival and all Israel will be saved. David Wagner says it'll go from Jerusalem to the States and Holland will be saved. It's starting here, people are getting saved on the streets. I thought: No man, that prophecy is for Israel, but I saw they called it the Israel of the West centuries ago, because there were so much lost tribes of Israel here.

Time Watcher · Nov 12, 2013

Lamb and Lion not the same?

Somebody on this forum plays the devil's advocate

Definitely the same [Revelation 5:5-6; 6:1; 6:17]

Such an obvious deception is noted by the slip of the tongue

Time Watcher · Nov 12, 2013

Jesus is both the "Lion" of the tribe of Judah .... and the "lamb" who will bring His wrath

dfw69 · Nov 12, 2013

Interplanner said:
Yes, God is going to do more things, but as you may have noticed in Rev, the millions in heaven are not singing 'worthy is the Lion who pounded the enemies of Israel' (if that is going to be the case; I don't know), but rather 'worthy is the Lamb who was slain and has redeemed...'

Are you referring to this ?

Revelation 5

The Scroll and the Lamb

5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Notice what is happening?

The lion of the tribe of Judah is found worthy to unleash the wrath because he was slain ... Ie ... Because of the work done on the cross... They praise him for the salvation that he provided...

Notice that Jesus receives power?... He is about to receive power over the nations... And glory ect ect...after the work that is about to happen in the appointed final 7 years of worldly government ... Jesus will rule

Steve Petersen · Nov 13, 2013

Interesting bit:

The war against Rome began in 66. The Temple was destroyed in 69 or 70. Massada fell in 73.

From 66 to 73 is seven years.

Interplanner · Nov 16, 2013

yes dfw,
but you are reading it in a future warp, which needs to be justified. The 1st page of the Rev says these things are happening shortly, quickly. And there is no normal connection between heaven's and earth's time. Further, the Lamb is the Lion. So whatever people thought the Lion was going to do needs to be modified to the fact that the Lamb has done it, and has recieved all authority, and has been made Lord and Christ (Lk 24, Mt 28, Acts 1, 2, Eph 1). That does not mean the establishment of a Judean state or empire; that's your problem to sort out. It does mean he is above and behind history (and whatever looks overwhelming in history) and will even be the victor over a figure like Nero, which these people had to live through, not to mention the rascals in Judaism itself.

Acc. to Mt 24 & //s they did expect the entire world to be gone and renewed 'immediately after' the ordeal of 66-72, except that the Father alone would decide that day. and has decided to delay it.

shturt678 · Nov 16, 2013

Rom.11:25, 26: The Jews will not disappear which most agree to, ie, the ten tribes of the Jews themselves have left no trace. Not so the two tribes that constituted Judaism in Paul's time.

They will endure until the last Gentile is brought into the Kingdom, ie, by accepting Jesus as their Savior without any 'national conversion of the Jews in some millennialism novelty,' and the Lord Returns for the great judgment. All God's true spiritual Israel will be saved.

Just ol' old back to the basics Jack agape this thread, ie, great!

Messy · Nov 16, 2013

shturt678 said:
All God's true spiritual Israel will be saved.

And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.[h]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Jacob is not the church, that's Israel before he got that name and struggled with God.
Is Your Position On the Jewish People and Israel a Salvation Issue? | Sid Roth - It's Supernatural

Interplanner · Nov 16, 2013

But Jacob vs Israel vs Judah doesn't figure in Paul in Rom 9-11 anyway; that loved/hated reference is just to show there is no blanket genetic acceptance of a patriarchal family, which serves to illustrate that not all Israel is Israel in the new sense (the first sense would have to have meant the whole nation, right?, not Israel vs Judah; otherwise it is a nonsense).

ebedmelech · Nov 16, 2013

dfw69 said:
It does not end at the cross for me.... Jesus has more to do...when new Jerusalem arrives and rev 21 is complete... Then the prophecies end for me

So why would Paul tell us we are complete in Jesus? Ever read Colossians 2:9-12?:
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Now...you may think Christ has more to do...but really the only thing left is His second coming.

What is it you think Christ still has to do other than come again?

dfw69 · Nov 16, 2013

ebedmelech said:
So why would Paul tell us we are complete in Jesus? Ever read Colossians 2:9-12?:
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Yes I have read it ... But Im sure I don't read it like you read it..

Because I don't spiritualize everything and make it actual complete... In order for something to be complete , It has to be .. Complete

God calls things that be not as thought they were ..right?

In this passage Paul's says we are complete .... But we are not complete
That Christ is the head of all rule and authority... Yet Obama and dem party rule America for 3 more years
That we are circumcised by removal of flesh ... Yet we remain in the flesh
That we are raised with him ... Our bodies are resurrected....yet the graves still remain

So what is the contradiction?..none.. because in Christ all these things are ours.. By faith .... And if faith ... It is still to be complete...

When our faith is complete literally .... Then it will be literally completed

So .... When those spiritual things become complete then these events would have taken place

Resurrection from the dead takes place
Christ is head of all authority and rule on earth
The body of flesh is cut off ( circumcised ) and we are given a new body
Then we are truly complete

Now...you may think Christ has more to do...but really the only thing left is His second coming.

And what will he do at his second coming?... Anything? nothing?

Ebed .. You spiritualize everything....I'm wondering if you believe Jesus comes back in his actual body that he rose with 2000 years ago.... Or... Does Jesus return spiritually like when John came in the spirit of Elijah ?

What is it you think Christ still has to do other than come again?

Fulfill our faith in him

dfw69 · Nov 16, 2013

Interplanner said:
yes dfw,
but you are reading it in a future warp, which needs to be justified. The 1st page of the Rev says these things are happening shortly, quickly. And there is no normal connection between heaven's and earth's time.

I see what your saying... But remember Jesus shows John 3 things... The things which he has seen.... Which is the revelation of Jesus ... The things which are ...which is the 7 churches ... And the things which shall be here after

The things which shall be hereafter has not taken place yet...it is a future fulfillment which you and I disagree with

Further, the Lamb is the Lion. So whatever people thought the Lion was going to do needs to be modified to the fact that the Lamb has done it, and has recieved all authority, and has been made Lord and Christ (Lk 24, Mt 28, Acts 1, 2, Eph 1). That does not mean the establishment of a Judean state or empire; that's your problem to sort out.

Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah ... Meaning he is the chosen messiah and king of Jerusalem as promised by the prophets ... When he opens the seals he is unleashing things upon the earth all leading up to Christ reigning on earth

God is allowing things to happen on earth so that the inhabitants of the earth cry out to him ...many of the prophecies are being fulfilled at this time...many messianic prophecies are being fulfilled when the lamb opens the seals...this did not happen in the first century...because if it did ... Jesus would have already been ruling on earth and the governments of the world would have been put down long ago....and our faith in him would have been completed

It does mean he is above and behind history (and whatever looks overwhelming in history) and will even be the victor over a figure like Nero, which these people had to live through, not to mention the rascals in Judaism itself.

Nero did not fulfill prophecy...

Acc. to Mt 24 & //s they did expect the entire world to be gone and renewed 'immediately after' the ordeal of 66-72, except that the Father alone would decide that day. and has decided to delay it.

That does not make sense...why would god bring them to the travail only to hide the child from them for 2000 years?....actually the child to rule will be born again first... Then she will go through great tribulation ... And immediately after ...Christ returns

So if the tribulation took place ... Then immediately after should not Christ have come?... I thing you are the one who needs to reevaluate ..

shturt678 · Nov 16, 2013

Messy said:
And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.[h]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Jacob is not the church, that's Israel before he got that name and struggled with God.
Is Your Position On the Jewish People and Israel a Salvation Issue? | Sid Roth - It's Supernatural

Any perversion of the Scriptures is a salvation issue. No difference between Jew or Genitle after 70 A.D. regarding the kingdom of God.

Just ol' old Jack that also cares, ie, good job!

Notrash · Nov 16, 2013

Here is some comments and previous duscussiion on this topic.
The mystery is the coming to faith of some of those first century jews, who had originally disbelieved, through jealousy unto emulation through the testimony and mercy of the believing group in the nations (gentiles). This had been prophecied in deut 32 as Paul quotes in Rom 10:19. More explanation and support is in the posts and threads. The primary focus wss 'saving' some of them before the lives of the unbelieving group would be demanded of them as prophecied in deut 18 and mentioned in Acts 3:22-24.

The deliverer would come to zion and remove the ungodly oppression of the law and Pharisees (Is 59), who had become vipers and asps hatched from that which was crushed (Is 59:5), (an allusion to Gen 3:15) from humanity (sons of Adam = sons of Jacob- deut 32:8-14) and especially from the believing sons and daughters who were being provoked (deut 32: 18-20 and Is 59:15).

http://www.christianforums.com/t7243209/

Part 2

http://www.christianforums.com/t7243209/#post47223619

Interplanner · Nov 16, 2013

Jack, re no difference:
wouldn't this start in Paul's teaching, or even in Christ's?

ebedmelech · Nov 16, 2013

dfw69 said:
Yes I have read it ... But Im sure I don't read it like you read it..

Because I don't spiritualize everything and make it actual complete... In order for something to be complete , It has to be .. Complete

There's nothing to spiritualize in the statement "in Him you are complete"...nothing.

dfw69 said:
God calls things that be not as thought they were ..right?

No.

dfw69 said:
In this passage Paul's says we are complete .... But we are not complete
That Christ is the head of all rule and authority... Yet Obama and dem party rule America for 3 more years
That we are circumcised by removal of flesh ... Yet we remain in the flesh
That we are raised with him ... Our bodies are resurrected....yet the graves still remain

So what is the contradiction?..none.. because in Christ all these things are ours.. By faith .... And if faith ... It is still to be complete...

When our faith is complete literally .... Then it will be literally completed

So .... When those spiritual things become complete then these events would have taken place

Resurrection from the dead takes place
Christ is head of all authority and rule on earth
The body of flesh is cut off ( circumcised ) and we are given a new body
Then we are truly complete

I'll just let you have that one...because it's all over the place and really somewhat unresponsive.

dfw69 said:
And what will he do at his second coming?... Anything? nothing?

At His second coming Jesus will raise the dead and enter into judgement.

dfw69 said:
Ebed .. You spiritualize everything....I'm wondering if you believe Jesus comes back in his actual body that he rose with 2000 years ago.... Or... Does Jesus return spiritually like when John came in the spirit of Elijah ?

No I allow the context of scripture to say that which is spiritual...so don't exaggerate.

The Lord said it pretty plain..."if I go away I will come again and receive you to myself".

Now...when Paul says "you are complete in Him"...that's what he means...do the word study on "complete".

dfw69 · Nov 16, 2013

ebedmelech said:
There's nothing to spiritualize in the statement "in Him you are complete"...nothing.

But we are not literally complete ,are we?

At His second coming Jesus will raise the dead and enter into judgement.

Not complete then ... Messianic prophecies are not all completed

No I allow the context of scripture to say that which is spiritual...so don't exaggerate.

Ok I won't exaggerate... but it's a figure of speech , I did not really mean you spiritualize everything

The Lord said it pretty plain..."if I go away I will come again and receive you to myself".

Ah another unfulfilled prophecy...so you believe Jesus literally returns back.. Good.. Will he then be king of Israel ? Or rule somewhere else ?.. Go back to heaven?

Now...when Paul says "you are complete in Him"...that's what he means...do the word study on "complete".

I don't feel complete... Still in my body .. Still gonna die... Still under human government...still not in the presence of my father

shturt678 · Nov 17, 2013

Interplanner said:
Jack, re no difference:
wouldn't this start in Paul's teaching, or even in Christ's?

The Jews, as a nation still was in effect during Jesus' and Paul's time, yet started for sure in Jesus' and Paul's time, ie, at Matt.24:28, that nation was removed from existence - the nation in Israel today is man made of course, 1948 or so?

Just ol' old Jack

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