Fullness of the Gentiles

Right, the visions always reach beyond just land and buildings. And I'm not saying spiritual is otherwordly, ethereal, or afterlife. It is maturity as in Gal. 4, which why it is possible to participate in it now. We are to seek first the reign of God and his righteousness. I'd like to see someone relegate that to the future through their fancy system of interp.

If the Zech 13 passage refers to our future, it does show that that not all genetic Israel is saved. I just don't know why it would refer to our future when the NT uses sections of it about the Gospel events to start with.

parousia70 said:

Only a preterist would say that.

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I Am A PRETERIST!!!

but also a futurist...because I believe not all prophecy is fulfilled but will be fulfilled in their futuristic times and season

Cause I believe the messianic prophecies are not all fulfilled...they will be when Jesus returns...does that make me a Jew also?!?

Interplanner said:

If the Zech 13 passage refers to our future, it does show that that not all genetic Israel is saved. I just don't know why it would refer to our future when the NT uses sections of it about the Gospel events to start with.

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Couple of things...

Someone wanted us to believe the messianic prophecies were being fulfilled..

But not fulfilled cause messiah got cut off from being king of the Jews

Or someone added those by mistake or on purpose

Or some of the Old Testament prophecies were partial fulfilled ..

That's all I got for now

dfw69 said:

I Am A PRETERIST!!!

but also a futurist...because I believe not all prophecy is fulfilled but will be fulfilled in their futuristic times and season

Cause I believe the messianic prophecies are not all fulfilled...they will be when Jesus returns...does that make me a Jew also?!?

Click to expand...

Then you're basically saying Christ didn't accomplish what the scriptures firmly say He accomplished.

Romans 8:1-4
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Christ fulfilled every bit of the messianic prophecies.

Read Matthew...which is written to Jews. Matthew quotes the messianic prophecies carefully...for instance:

Matthew 1:22, 23:
22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” (Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, 7)

Here's another:
Matthew 2:5, 6:
5 They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
6 ‘And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah, Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah; For out of you shall come forth a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.’” (Micah 5:2)

Matthew does this all through his gospel because he is trying to tell Jews that Christ is the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. Read Matthew paying particular attention to that.

"Then you're basically saying Christ didn't accomplish what the scriptures firmly say He accomplished."


He did and you had better believe it .... but He is not finished with the rest of the story

.... to which the prophetic scriptures firmly attest .... scads of them

ebedmelech said:

Then you're basically saying Christ didn't accomplish what the scriptures firmly say He accomplished.

Romans 8:1-4
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Christ fulfilled every bit of the messianic prophecies.

Read Matthew...which is written to Jews. Matthew quotes the messianic prophecies carefully...for instance:

Matthew 1:22, 23:
22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” (Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, 7)

Here's another:
Matthew 2:5, 6:
5 They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
6 ‘And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah, Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah; For out of you shall come forth a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.’” (Micah 5:2)

Matthew does this all through his gospel because he is trying to tell Jews that Christ is the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. Read Matthew paying particular attention to that.

Click to expand...

I believe he fulfilled messianic prophecies in part... Not completely.... Example of this is when he read the spirit of The Lord is upon me

Isaiah 61

The Year of the Lord’s Favor

61 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[a]
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor

Jesus fulfilled this ....

The rest is unfulfilled and is for Israel ...

and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of joy
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the Lord
for the display of his splendor.
4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins
and restore the places long devastated;
they will renew the ruined cities
that have been devastated for generations.
5 Strangers will shepherd your flocks;
foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.
6 And you will be called priests of the Lord,
you will be named ministers of our God.
You will feed on the wealth of nations,
and in their riches you will boast.
7 Instead of your shame
you will receive a double portion,
and instead of disgrace
you will rejoice in your inheritance.
And so you will inherit a double portion in your land,
and everlasting joy will be yours.
8 “For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
In my faithfulness I will reward my people
and make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations
and their offspring among the peoples.
All who see them will acknowledge
that they are a people the Lord has blessed.”
10 I delight greatly in the Lord;
my soul rejoices in my God.
For he has clothed me with garments of salvation
and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness,
as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest,
and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the soil makes the sprout come up
and a garden causes seeds to grow,
so the Sovereign Lord will make righteousness
and praise spring up before all nations.

parousia70 said:

The term "Fullness of the Gentiles" is oft equated with the notion of quantity, amount, or number count of Gentile believers, but does scripture support such a notion?

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fullness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fullness in the NT carries the idea of "totality of Gods blessings and grace", and not a certain number of people.

Gentile believers are not waiting to become "full partakers" of the Grace of God, rather The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.

The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

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This is the fullness of the Gentiles.

Mat24:14
And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in ALL the World for a witness unto ALL NATIONS and then shall the end come.

The end cannot come until all the peoples of the world have heard the Gospel of the Kingdom and have had the chance to accept or reject Jesus as the Son of God.

For it is written, that God would have all people to be saved. They cannot be saved if they have not heard.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars..

1948 or 1967?

"Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars..

1948 or 1967?"


Neither

This is a projection of the coming time of the 70th week decreed for Israel .... the time of Jacob's trouble

.... this time frame could begin before this day is over

Time Watcher said:

"
Neither

This is a projection of the coming time of the 70th week decreed for Israel .... the time of Jacob's trouble

.... this time frame could begin before this day is over

Click to expand...

They are already led away captive and He's bringing them back already. I don't believe that will happen again.

"They are already led away captive and He's bringing them back already. I don't believe that will happen again"


It is going to happen again for the last time [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38: 39; Daniel 36:41; Joel 2: 3; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 12:1-12; 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 11:2-13; 12:6: 12:14-17]

The events presented in the above visions have never yet taken place and must exactly as they are described

All of the events taken together have no historical record of fulfillment .... read them carefully

Israel is currenty being gathered into the land for experiencing the time of Jacob's trouble which has never taken place

The Lord is going to pressure the tiny nation for the purpose of drawing a remnant to turn to Him [Israel does not believe in Jesus Christ today] ... and a remnant part [1/3] will believe ... the balance will be killed [Zechariah 13:8-9] .... Israel will be scattered again for a short time by Satan's beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions a king of the northern Middle East and his Muslim followers, the one that some call the "antichrist"

The first believers of the coming tribulation will be 144000 of the chlidren of Israel [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

If you have questions I will answer

Time Watcher said:

"They are already led away captive and He's bringing them back already. I don't believe that will happen again"


It is going to happen again for the last time [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38: 39; Daniel 36:41; Joel 2: 3; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 12:1-12; 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 11:2-13; 12:6: 12:14-17]

The events presented in the above visions have never yet taken place and must exactly as they are described

All of the events taken together have no historical record of fulfillment .... read them carefully

Israel is currenty being gathered into the land for experiencing the time of Jacob's trouble which has never taken place

The Lord is going to pressure the tiny nation for the purpose of drawing a remnant to turn to Him [Israel does not believe in Jesus Christ today] ... and a remnant part [1/3] will believe ... the balance will be killed [Zechariah 13:8-9] .... Israel will be scattered again for a short time by Satan's beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions a king of the northern Middle East and his Muslim followers, the one that some call the "antichrist"

The first believers of the coming tribulation will be 144000 of the chlidren of Israel [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

If you have questions I will answer

Click to expand...

Yes it's in Zecharia too, but in Ezekiel 37 Israel gets saved before the Gog war.

What is 'Gentiles' in Romans 11?
5. Translated "Gentiles" - used in reference to Israelites, descendants of the house of Israel. Romans 9:24.
As can be seen, there is more than one possible application for the word "ethnos." It can refer to either Israelites or non-Israelite gentiles.
Spiritual Israel: Out of All Nations or Out of the Nation of Israel? - Mission to Israel

dfw69 said:

I believe he fulfilled messianic prophecies in part... Not completely.... Example of this is when he read the spirit of The Lord is upon me

Isaiah 61

The Year of the Lord’s Favor

61 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[a]
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor

Jesus fulfilled this ....

Click to expand...

Indeed!

dfw69 said:

The rest is unfulfilled and is for Israel ...

and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of joy
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the Lord
for the display of his splendor.
4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins
and restore the places long devastated;
they will renew the ruined cities
that have been devastated for generations.
5 Strangers will shepherd your flocks;
foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.
6 And you will be called priests of the Lord,
you will be named ministers of our God.
You will feed on the wealth of nations,
and in their riches you will boast.
7 Instead of your shame
you will receive a double portion,
and instead of disgrace
you will rejoice in your inheritance.
And so you will inherit a double portion in your land,
and everlasting joy will be yours.
8 “For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
In my faithfulness I will reward my people
and make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations
and their offspring among the peoples.
All who see them will acknowledge
that they are a people the Lord has blessed.”
10 I delight greatly in the Lord;
my soul rejoices in my God.
For he has clothed me with garments of salvation
and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness,
as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest,
and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the soil makes the sprout come up
and a garden causes seeds to grow,
so the Sovereign Lord will make righteousness
and praise spring up before all nations.

Click to expand...

That's because this is NOT only for Israel...but the church also. Isn't it Peter that calls believers a royal priesthood? It is not messianic. This prophecy has multiple applications such as salvation, the witness of the church, and final judgement.

A "messianic prophecy" is designated as such because it refers to Jesus ministry and crucifixion.

"Yes it's in Zecharia too, but in Ezekiel 37 Israel gets saved before the Gog war


Ezekiel 37 is about the return of a remnant part of Israel who will have their kingdom restored .... and this remnant will be saved because of their belief in the Lord and His purposes for them

But the kingdom restored will not precede Satan's [gog's] attack upon Israel

Satan's attempt to destroy the nation will occur at the middle of the coming time of the 70th week decreed .... the time of Jacob's trouble

This attack upon Israel will drive many to turn to the Lord for protection which is exactly what many will do .... if He does not protect them the nation would be wiped out .... but He will

Then He will turn on Israel's enemies and destroy them at the battle of Armageddon

So in sense you are exactly right .... the remnant part of Israel will be believers in their Messiah and King when Satan attacks, and 1260 days later the Lord will force Israel's enemies to Armageddon and destroy them

Time Watcher said:

"Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars..

1948 or 1967?"


Neither

This is a projection of the coming time of the 70th week decreed for Israel .... the time of Jacob's trouble

.... this time frame could begin before this day is over

Click to expand...

Why do you ignore the destruction of the Jews & the holy temple in AD70 ?

Jacob's trouble happened with the destruction of "thy holy people & thy holy city" (Dan9)- Jerusalem, the harlot,

Why are you want to be ignorant of their (the Jews) history about the Jewish/Roman war in AD67-70?

That was Jacob's trouble. Their "great tribulation>"

It's been proved & acknowledged by most of Christendom today!

But you still want to preach doom & gloom.

I feel sorry for that.

Most of us have peace & are satisfied in their salvation.