Fullness Of The Gentiles -a Poll

[random person]

Genesis 48:19

And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude (Fullness) of nations.

Hosea 7:8

Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Ephesians 1:9-10

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:5-11

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Colossians 1:19-20

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Isaiah 45:22-24

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

 

[random person]

Here is an article:

What does "fullness of the Gentiles" mean in Romans 11?

by Dr Taylor Marshall

This is one of the most confusing and debated passages of Scripture:

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.”

Romans 11:25-26

Saint Paul put forth a “mystery”. A “partial hardening” has happened to ethnic Israel until the “fullness of the Gentiles”. At this point “all Israel” will be saved.

In other words, “Israel” plus “fullness of Gentiles” equals “all Israel”. So what is the “fullness of the Gentiles”?

I think that Saint Paul is referring to Genesis 48:17-19:

When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him; and he took his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head.

And Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father; for this one is the first-born; put your right hand upon his head.”

But his father [Jacob/Israel] refused, and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; nevertheless his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.”

That final line could be translated as “fullness of the Gentiles”. It foreshadows how Ephraim (synecdochical for the northern ten tribes) later “mixed itself” with the nations (Hosea 7:8).

Saint Paul indicates that the Israel/Ephraim’s identity is “mixed” with the Gentiles. In fulfillment of the prophecy of Jacob, the sons of of Ephraim have become the “fullness of the Gentiles” though in a less than noble way. Quite remarkable. For Paul, the only way to restore the lost remnant of Israel is to restore the Gentiles with whom they have mixed. This would explain how the Gentiles have benefited by the received curses of Israel.

It would also explain why Christ told the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel first in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, and then to the ends of the world. Samaria was the greatest concentration of “half-breed” northern Israelites. The evangelization of Samaria is the fulfillment of the restoration of “Israel” whether they be half-breeds or not. It is also noteworthy that both Peter and John specifically came to Samaria in order to impart the Holy Spirit via the sacrament of Confirmation (Acts 8:14-17).

What does "fullness of the Gentiles" mean in Romans 11? - Taylor Marshall

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 1:

What is the Fullness Of The Gentiles

() The Mystery: Ephraim: Lost Israel Rom. 11:26

Note that there's no "Lost Israel", in the sense of 10 lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history. For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17) and so by definition they all became Jews. That's why later the Jews living in the first century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1) and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a first century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know they're Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity and intermarried freely with Gentiles to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity, over the past 2,700 years their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9) or God's children or Abraham's children but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they're elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26) when they see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

random person said in post 1:

() End of the Four Gentile Empires, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman

The 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different Gentile empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

random person said in post 1:

() End of the Four Gentile Empires, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman

Are you thinking of Daniel 7? If so, in Daniel 7 the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) indeed represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), indeed represents the ancient Roman empire.

But the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 1:

What is the Fullness Of The Gentiles

() The Mystery: Ephraim: Lost Israel Rom. 11:26

Romans 11:26 should be understood in the context of Romans 11:25, where the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28) but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25) he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), just as Luke 21:24 shows "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30) all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

random person said in the signature in post 1:

Nero Caesar's persecutions of the Christians lasted from November 64AD til June 68AD upon his death by a self-inflicted neck wound with a sword. 42 Months!

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

Regarding the claim (made by some) that Nero's name in Hebrew added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling that adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

 

[Notrash]

It means until the filling of the spirit of God was being accomplished in individuals from the nations (former Israelite or whoever) in order to begin provoking jealousy unto emulation among some of the Jews who originally disbelieved. Paul refers to this jealousy in 10:19 and is quoting from deut 32:21.

"And thus is the manner" in which all "Israel" being saved is referring to the saving of the lambs of peace who were to defer vengeance unto God for the persecutions they were to endure. (Rom 12:19 again referring to deut 32) The "saving" is referring to Isaiah 59 which is an overlap of deut 32 and refers to the removal of the mosaic covt disbelievers from the followers of Jesus and the words and truths if the new covt. These are all 1st century applications with extended empowerment.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is the Fullness Of The Gentiles

Subscribing.

I am unsure what it means.

.

 

[Codger]

The "Times of the Gentiles" ended with the destruction of Israel in 70AD. The times oof the Gentiles encompassed all four of Daniel's beasts ending with Rome.

 

[parousia70]

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fulness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?(This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fulness in the NT carries the idea of totality of Gods blessings and grace, and not a certain number.

The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.
The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

 

[Notrash]

The "Times of the Gentiles" ended with the destruction of Israel in 70AD. The times of the Gentiles encompassed all four of Daniel's beasts ending with Rome.

Though I agree with this point; the question is about the "fullness" of the gentiles" or 'nations'. Parousia 70 has the supported understanding and word usage study of "fullness.

"Times" of the gentiles" was referring in the olivet to the time alloted for them to trample the city and make a consummation of the desolation as prophecied in Dan 9 also. Another way to say it would be "until" the trampling or desolation had been consummated and utterly completed.

I don't equate 'times of the gentiles' of the Olivet and 'fullness of the gentiles' of Rom 11.

 

[Interplanner]

The fulness of the nations is an expression from Judaism that goes with the age of Messiah. They knew the age of Messiah was coming at the end of the 490 years. They did not seem to know the Law would not be necessary after that.

 

[Dave Watchman]

The "Fullness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago?
I don't know for sure but some think it came in 20 years ago.

"70 weeks" and 490 years and 10 jubilee cycles are all the same thing. Pick whichever one you are most comfortable with as they are interchangeable time periods.

Times of the gentiles=Fullness of the gentiles. God's limit of Divine Grace. Fullness of the gentiles was completed in the springtime of 1994. That's when God's Grace ran out, times up.

Times of the Jews = "70 weeks" + "70 weeks" + "70 weeks". (1437BC Exodus to 34AD)
(The third set of "70 weeks" is from Daniel 9)

Times of the Gentiles = "70 weeks" + "70 weeks" + "70 weeks" + "70 weeks". (34AD to 1994AD)

<1437BC Exodus-------------------------------------------------------------1994>
<"70 weeks"+"70 weeks"+"70 weeks"+"70 weeks"+"70 weeks"+"70 weeks"+"70 weeks">

This whole thing (times of jews and gentiles) is 490 years times 7 or 10 jubilee cycles times 7 or 70 weeks times 7, equaling 3430 years from The Exodus in the spring of 1437BC until the spring of 1994 when the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled.
So how did we find 1994 in the first place and what's so special about it? From the Exodus in the spring of 1437 BC. untill the spring of 1994 there were 70 Jubilee cycles. The first three, if you understand Daniel 9, were undisputedly the times of the Jews.


So what's the big deal about 70 Jubilee cycles?


Remember when Israel got into trouble for not letting the land have it's Sabbath rest? God wanted them not to work the land every 7th year. He wanted the land to have it's Sabbath rest. They wouldn't do it but God waited until they violated 70 Sabbath years (2 Chronicles 36:21), before He sent them into exile in Babylon for 70 years. 70 seems to be a recurring number.

70 years is the life of a man (Psalm 90:10)

70 elders Moses put over Israel (Exodus 24:9)

70 men God killed for looking into the Ark of the Covenant (1 Samuel 6:19)

70 palm trees (Exodus 15:27)

70 weeks of probationary time in Daniel 9

Israel was in Babylon for 70 years because they violated 70 Sabbath years (2 Chronicles 36:21)


Now for the scary part. In 1994 Seven Angels were given Seven Trumpets. The first four to whom it was granted to harm the earth. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The trigger was pulled, then The Angels were told to "wait". This began a 21 year delay that we are living in the tail end of now. It reminds me of how Gabriel was delayed in his visit to Daniel for 21 days or how Noah waited 21days to leave The Ark.
How come nothing happened? How come nothing happened to Old Jerusalem in AD. 34? I guess the old time Jews before the DofJ thought that they were safe. All things seemed to continue as they were from the beginning of creation but just like in the days of Noah, they were living in the days prior to the outpouring of God's Wrath. They had a 37 year delay, this time our delay is shorter at 21 years.


Signs in The Heavens (1994 style)

In 1994 on the 9th of Av a big comet made one last orbit around Jupiter. Jupiter's gravity broke it up into 21 large chunks. Over a 6 day period 21 large fragments smashed into Jupiter creating the largest explosions ever witnessed by mankind. If just one of the 21 impacts were to have hit Earth it would have been an extinction level event for us. Some of the impacts made holes big enough for the Earth to fit into.

From Wikipedia:
Comet Shoemaker–Levy 9
Impacts

Over the next 6 days, 21 distinct impacts were observed, with the largest coming on July 18 at 07:33 UTC when fragment G struck Jupiter. This impact created a giant dark spot over 12,000 km across, and was estimated to have released an energy equivalent to 6,000,000 megatons of TNT (600 times the world's nuclear arsenal).[17] Two impacts 12 hours apart on July 19 created impact marks of similar size to that caused by fragment G, and impacts continued until July 22, when fragment W struck the planet.[18]

6 days.
6,000,000 megatons of TNT
600 times the world's nuclear arsenal

7 Seals + 7 Trumpets + 7 Bowls = 21
Remember the 37 year delay?
Three Sevens, three X seven =21

From Genesis 41:

"Then Joseph said to Pharaoh, “The dreams of Pharaoh are one; God has revealed to Pharaoh what he is about to do. The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good ears are seven years"

(This is an example of counting objects as years.)


"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven".

70 times seven, according to Jesus, seems to be a Divine limit for extended grace.

Oh Yeah, there's one more thing. Remember Gabriel's 21 day delay from Daniel 10?

"The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days"

Due to the operation of the Jubilee calendar, "21 days" in Daniel's time would be "21 years" in our time.


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(6 more will be a Jubilee cycle)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Though I agree with this point; the question is about the "fullness" of the gentiles" or 'nations'. Parousia 70 has the supported understanding and word usage study of "fullness.

"Times" of the gentiles" was referring in the olivet to the time alloted for them to trample the city and make a consummation of the desolation as prophecied in Dan 9 also. Another way to say it would be "until" the trampling or desolation had been consummated and utterly completed.

I don't equate 'times of the gentiles' of the Olivet and 'fullness of the gentiles' of Rom 11.

Yeah, I am still working on that verse in Romans 11.......

But we do know that Luke 21:24 ties in with Reve 13:10 concerning the destruction of OC Jerusalem in AD 70

Luke 21:24
"And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led captive into all the Nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trampled by nations until which may be being filled Times/kairoi <2540> of Nations/eqnwn <1484>

Reve 13:10
If any to-captivity, into captivity is going away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.
[Luke 21:24]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND,........

Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND............


.

 

[Danoh]

The fulness of the nations is an expression from Judaism that goes with the age of Messiah. They knew the age of Messiah was coming at the end of the 490 years. They did not seem to know the Law would not be necessary after that.

One aspect of the Law your Replacement Theology continually.misses is its place in ISRAEL'S life not only by Covenant, but as an aspect of THEIR IDENTITY "in the site of the nations," Deut. 4:6; Rom. 2:17,18; 9:4.

Their New Covenant will enable them to keep said Law, Ezek. 36:27.

You fail to distinguish between "righteousness which is of the law," [the Old] and "the law because of righteousness" [the New which will enable them in the Old, or First].

 

[Danoh]

Not surprisingly, Random, your poll choice is bereft of the following as a possible choice as well...

Romans 9-11 relates what happened between Israel and God that He appears to have turned from that nation.

Paul's point is that, yes, Israel has fallen and God has turned from them, but ONLY TEMPORARILY.

That Israel stumbled [at the Cross; which is how they "stumbled at that stumbling stone," Rom. 9:32, 33; John 19:15's "Crucify him... We have no king but Caesar"], and then fell [in that nation's continued resistence of the Spirit's offer of the Father's forgiveness of their having crucified the Son, their resistence of this offer of forgiveness was the unforgiveable sin of Matt. 12:30-32, which the Spirit judged that nation of commiting, at Acts 7:51].

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? GOD FORBID: BUT RATHER through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles," Rom. 11:11

So, they fell - BUT God had not only planned that with their fall He would send His salvation to the Gentiles, BUT that through this, He would PROVOKE ISRAEL to jealousy, that He might STILL "save some OF THEM," verse, 14.

Is that it for Israel? No.

"Now if the fall OF THEM be the riches of the Gentiles; how much MORE THEIR fulness?," verse 12.

15. For IF the casting away OF THEM be the reconciling of the world, what shall be THE RECIEVING OF THEM, but life from the dead?
16. For IF the firstfruit be holy, the lump IS ALSO holy: and IF the root be holy, SO ARE THE BRANCHES.

In Numbers 15:17-21 Israel is instructed to bring the first fruits of the lump of the dough they made their bread out of, to the LORD, as an offering to Him. They could then eat the rest of it, as holy unto them, as it's first fruits had been holy [set apart as unto the LORD].

This same principle is what Paul is referring to - if the first fruit is holy, then so is the lump; the rest of that nation THAT BELIEVES.

The first fruit is "the little flock" of Luke 12:32 of which James writes "to the TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad...Of HIS OWN WILL begat He US with the word of truth, that WE should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures," James 1:1, 18.

The Hebrew writer too, writes of those of that nation [ISRAEL] who are called to follow them, in Early Acts, by them that had followed Christ when He was here, Heb. 2.

Back to this issue of Rom. 11:16. The firstfruit is holy, and so is the lump: those of Israel that Paul in Rom. 2:29 identifies as "of God."

"The Israel of God" - those of Israel, in contrast to those of that nation, not the Israel of God, judged by the Spirit through Stephen as "uncircumcised in heart and ears," Acts 7:51.

The Israel of God were "Jews... inwardly;" their "circumcision... that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise" was "not of men, but OF GOD."

While the root is the origin of the branches [the nation ISRAEL]: Abraham.

Matthew 3:

7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned thee to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you that God is able to of these stones to raise up children UNTO ABRAHAM.
10. And now ALSO the axe is laid UNTO THE ROOT of the trees: therefore every TREE which bringeth not forth good FRUIT is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Anyway, the root is Abraham. Just as he was holy, or set apart by God towards His purpose in Abraham, through his multiplied seed, so too is this multiplied seed - the branches - holy, or set apart by God, as to His purpose in that nation through Christ.

In this, "THEY ALSO, IF THEY abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in AGAIN: for God IS ABLE to graff THEM in AGAIN," Rom. 11:23.

In this, Paul has been laying out the actual sense of Romans 11:25's "fullness" way before he mentions it.

For, following the verse I have just quoted, verse 23, he continues his thought with verse 24's "FOR IF thou [you Gentiles at Rome] wert cut out of the wild olive tree which is wild by nature and were graffed in contrary to nature into a good olive tree: HOW MUCH MORE SHALL THESE, WHICH BE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into THEIR OWN olive tree."

He continues this 'God is NOT through with Israel" thought in verse 25-27's "FOR I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant OF THIS MYSTERY, LEST YE SHOULD BE WISE IN YOUR OWN CONCEITS; that blindness IN PART is happened TO ISRAEL, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. AND SO all Israel shall be saved: AS IT IS WRITTEN, There SHALL come OUT OF SION the Deliverer, and SHALL turn ungodliness FROM.JAVOB: FOR THIS IS MY covenant UNTO THEM, WHEN I SHALL take away THEIR sin."

In Acts 1:7, just prior to His ascenscion back unto the Father, the little flock had asked Christ, "Lord, wilt thou AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN the kingdom TO ISRAEL?"

Well, here, in Romans 11, is the understanding of His answer to them, as to "the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in HIS OWN power" as to said restoration again.

After the fullness of this Gentile salvation be come in, He will return to come out of Sion, and those of Israel who "abide not still in unbelief," He "shall graff... in AGAIN."

 

[Bible2]

LittleLambofJesus said in post 12:

Luke 21:24 ties in with Reve 13:10 concerning the destruction of OC Jerusalem in AD 70

Luke 21:24
"And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led captive into all the Nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trampled by nations until which may be being filled Times/kairoi <2540> of Nations/eqnwn <1484>

Note that Luke 21:24 wasn't fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD, for it refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (i.e. not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal (and never fulfilled) 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

That is, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

 

[Bible2]

Danoh said in post 13:

One aspect of the Law your Replacement Theology continually.misses is its place in ISRAEL'S life not only by Covenant, but as an aspect of THEIR IDENTITY "in the site of the nations," Deut. 4:6; Rom. 2:17,18; 9:4.

Note that even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Danoh said in post 13:

Their New Covenant will enable them to keep said Law, Ezek. 36:27.

Note that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus' crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as its being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of believers (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:27). And "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:13). And "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).

Danoh said in post 13:

You fail to distinguish between "righteousness which is of the law," [the Old] and "the law because of righteousness" [the New which will enable them in the Old, or First].

Note that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (including the letter of the 10 commandments) written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8) was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14 and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b) which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Danoh said in post 13:

In Acts 1:7, just prior to His ascenscion back unto the Father, the little flock had asked Christ, "Lord, wilt thou AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN the kingdom TO ISRAEL?"

The question in Acts 1:6 is answered elsewhere in the scriptures (Acts 3:20-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Regarding "restoring the kingdom" to Israel (Acts 1:6), that means restoring the kingdom of Israel in a physical way in which it will bear fruit (Matthew 21:43), which won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (Acts 3:20-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Jon Anon]

The bible shows the pattern of 1 then 2 then those 2 become one. 3 examples:

1 God is one then Jesus came forth and Jesus and God are one
2. Adam was one Eve was always in Adam and came forth from Adam making two and the two became one as scripture tells us
3 Israel was one. Israel divided into two to bring forth jews(judah) and christians(lost 10 tirbes) and in the end all of Israel will be one again after the lost 10 tribes are gathered. How will they be found and gathered the same way God always does things through the furnace of affliction to bring forth his people. Deut 4:34 tells us only God can bring forth a nation out of another nation through war....etc:
Deut 4:34
Jubilee Bible 2000
Or has God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs and by wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?

Which nation will be destroyed to bring forth Gods nation(lost 10 tribes)......the land of milk and honey that has been turned into the land of idols(egypt) which is "THE UNITED STATES" the final nation that rules the world today will be brought down that the fullness of the gentiles can come forth and all of Israel can be whole again.

 

[Interplanner]

The problem with your 3rd example, Jon, is that the whole people of God never was just Israel. The people of God which is now made up of many and is one was there before Israel.

In Gal 3:17 we have a clue that Judaism began to believe that the Law supplanted the promise which was to all mankind but handled through Abraham--as I understand the whole of Gal 3. He refers to a misconception there. He clears it up. The misconception is that the Law voided or replaced the worldwide promise. It did not. The promise is not accessed by 'observing the law' and therefore is transcultural: all who believe the Gospel access the promise to Israel. Which is the gift of righteousness and God's Spirit now, and the world to come (Rom 4:13).

 

[n2thelight]

In Dr. Goard's book, "Epistle to the Romans," he has given some illuminating comments on how the word ethne refers to the ten-tribed Israel. These are found in the fourth and fifth chapters of his book. He shows very clearly that chapters 9, 10, and 11 of Romans refer to ten-tribed Israel. In these chapters the Apostle Paul quotes quite freely from Hosea, Isaiah, and Elijah, and as Dr. Goard shows, all of these quotations refer to facts in the history of ten-tribed Israel, and not in the history of Judah nor in the history of any other nation. Thus when the word gentiles (Greek word ethne) is used in these three chapters, it definitely is speaking of ten-tribed Israel, and no other race. It is not a contrast between Israel and non-Israel people. It is a contrast between Israel in 975 BC, and Israel known as the nations in AD 60.

Do not let the word gentiles mislead you. The Greek word is ethne and means nations. The Apostle Paul in this Israel section of his epistle is merely contrasting Israel's former state when she was known as Israel with her state in his day when she was known as the nations. To use the popularized meaning of the word, they had become gentilized in the sense that they were not known as Israel. Israel was one nation God had called out from among other peoples; but now in her Spiritual decline, she was just like the other nations.

She had lost her identity so much that the Apostle Paul said that blindness was to stay on Israel until the "fullness of the gentiles" (nations) be come in. (Romans 11:25) This 'fullness of the gentiles' should be translated 'fullness of nations.' It is a direct reference to Genesis 48:19, where it is stated that Ephraim was to become a "multitude of nations" in the last days. This is confirmed by the fact that both Dr. Delitzsch's translation of the New Testament into Hebrew - sold by the British and Foreign Bible Society - and Ginsburg Salkinson's New Testament, published by the Trinitarian Bible Society, for the use of the Jews, have the very same Hebrew words - me lo hag-goyim - in Romans 11:25, that we find in Genesis 48:19, in the Hebrew Old Testament, and in this verse only. We use the expression "multitude of nations" because it is given as the correct reading in most Bibles in preference to fullness of nations. In other words, Israel was to be blind to her identity until the tribe of Ephraim became a multitude of nations. That time has arrived now and that is the reason our identity as the Israel of God is becoming known. As Isaiah 25:7 reads, "He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations." That veil is being lifted now and the prophetic identity of all nations is becoming known.

Some scholars, in translating Genesis 48:19, where the Hebrew is me lo hag-goyim render it a company of gentile nations. The writer is convinced that a company or multitude of nations is the better translation. However, there is a germ of truth in their translation if the right meaning is attached to the word gentile; that these people would become so much like other nations that they would not be recognized as Israel. But that, of course, is a different meaning given to the word than is meant in the original text.
To summarize: the word gentile is derived from the Latin word gentilis and is only one of several words that are used to translate the Hebrew word goi and the Greek word ethnos into English. The best word to use is nations. It would have been better if the word gentile had never appeared in the English text. Neither goi nor ethnos necessarily mean non-Israel, as has been shown above.

Note: The Greek words ethne and ethnos, translated nations or gentiles, are the source of our English word, ethnic, signifying a blood-relative. They certainly do not mean 'heathen' or 'non-Israelite' as is popularly taught today.

Meaning Of Word Gentiles

 

[Interplanner]

N2:
Interesting. Now to clarify: Goard is not pitting Israel vs Judah, but just saying the 10 tribe unit formerly known as Israel is now so diluted as to be one of the nations, correct?

1, I mention that because there are people here who make a big thing out of Israel vs Judah (a distinction not found in Rom 9-11), and sometimes Israel vs Jacob (even though they are interchanged in 11:26).

2, if they are as diluted as he said, why would Paul spend time contrasting them so much in 11?

3, Have you found that Goard realizes Paul saw that the multitude of seed was those who had faith anyway, and never was identified with the genetic descendancy?