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Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

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Anto9us

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The Temple being torn down in 70 AD was the biggest "secular" evidence of Jesus' Parousia - the STONES WERE TORN DOWN NOT ONE STANDING ON ANOTHER - the biggest prophecy fulfillment of Jesus and as SPECIFIC AS ONE COULD GET!! Remember He made that prediction/prophecy in Olivet Discourse -- all of which was about THE SIGN OF HIS COMING/the destruction of the Temple as He predicted/ and the end of the age

It was such a big event - HOW BIG WAS IT?????!!!!!???

SO BIG that entire eschatologies have been cooked up trying to explain that something bigger might be coming in the future

but face it

not comin

already came

Roman soldiers pryed Temple stones apart with crow-bars to get at the MELTED GOLD in the rocks

talk about ELEMENTS melting with fervent heat! Yeah, Baby!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Is there any secular evidence that Jesus came back in 70ad? How big of an event was it?
Thta is what Josephus witnessed:

Zeph 1:18
Moreover their silver, moreover their gold, not shall be able to rescue them in day of wrath of YHWH,
and in fire of jealously of Him shall be devoured all of the land.
[James 5:3]

2 Peter 3:12
Toward seeming/expecting and hastening the Parousia of the, of the God, Day, thru which heavens being fired/purou-menoi <4448> (5746) shall be being dissolved
and elements/stoiceia <4747> burning being melted.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The magnificent Temple that Herod had built was completely destroyed as the fires raged inside and out. These fires were so hot that the gold fittings, and the gold gilding inside and on it's outside walls melted and ran into the cracks between and in the stones.
During the pillaging of the Temple these stones were broken up to get at the gold. Therefore, fulfilling Jesus' prophecy that no stone would be left on another&#8212;the destruction was total, just as Jesus foretold.

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground.

And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! -- This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"




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Der Alte

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I know that the temple was destroyed, ca. 70 AD, but when did all these things happen?

1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. Tribulation which precedes
3. the sun not giving its light.
4. The stars falling from heaven.
5. The powers of the heavens shaken.
6. The sign of the Son of man in heaven:
7. All the tribes of the earth mourning,
8. All the tribes of the earth seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
9. The Son of Man sending his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
10. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Mat 24:27-31
(27)
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​
 
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tacdon

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They make sense of it by twisting the scriptures.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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They make sense of it by twisting the scriptures.


And futurists/dispies don't?


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Der Alte

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LittleLambofJesus

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I'm not sure what you mean by fururist/dispie but I am a traditional Nicene Christian and I don't twist scripture.
How do we know that?


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Der Alte

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Evergreen48

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Der Alter said:
I know that the temple was destroyed, ca. 70 AD, but when did all these things happen?
1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.

This would speak to obvious evidence of the Son of man's coming. As one can clearly see a lightning strike which, if having its beginning in the eastern sky, travels across the sky in a westerly fashion, so would the carnage and destruction be visible as the Roman army made its way from the east, and continuing across the land in a westerly direction, it left death and destruction behind in its wake via the sword and fire .

2. Tribulation which precedes

See Josephus' Wars of the Jews, books 5 & 6


3. the sun not giving its light.
4. The stars falling from heaven.
5. The powers of the heavens shaken.
6. The sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Jesus speaks in prophetic language concerning the 'powers of heaven being shaken'. The light from the sun and the stars standing for the great sources of spiritual wisdom which God had so graciously bestowed upon his chosen people. All of what was left of such he took away when his once beloved city, and the temple which stood within were sacked and burned by the Romans. We find this same kind of prophetic language used in Isa. 13:10, 24:23, Ezek. 32:8, Amos 5:20, Zeph. 1:15. But this could also hold true in the literal sense, as the great magnitude of the smoke and pollution from the burning of fields, buildings and corpses in that siege would have most likely have caused an eerie, pervading darkness to envelope the land by day and deeper darkness of the nights.

See also Josephus - book VI Chapter 6, Section 3:

3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation ; but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider , did not regard the denunciations that God made to them . Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year . Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eight day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day-time; which light lasted for half an hour . This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskilful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. " ---


7. All the tribes of the earth mourning,
8. All the tribes of the earth seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Hear some of Jesus' prophecy concerning the mourning of the tribes:

Matthew 8:11. "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12.But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matt. 13: 40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this AGE. 41.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."


9. The Son of Man sending his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
10. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The messengers were the apostles and some others who followed them in their evangelistic efforts. The loud sounding of the trumpet was the VERY effective call of the gospel - " . . . . . How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Rom. 10:15) "Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. "(Rom. 10:18.)
 
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parousia70

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1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.​

Sounds like a LOCALIZED event.

Lightning strikes are only visible locally.

I live in Portland, Oregon, USA and I can guarantee that When Lightning flashes from East to West across Jerusalem (or anywhere besides Portland, OR USA) it is NOT visible from my location.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Der Alter

1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.
Nice one!

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea.

John 7:1
And JESUS was walking after these-things in the Galilee, for not He desired in Judea/ioudaia <2449> to be walking, that the Judeans/ioudaioi <2453> sought to kill Him

Mat 24:16
then those in Judea -- let them flee to the mounts;

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Nero, having been informed of the defeat of Cestius, immediately appointed Vespasian, a man of tried valour, to prosecute the war against the Jews, who, assisted by his son Titus, soon collected at Ptolemais an. army of sixty thousand men.
From hence, in the spring of 67 A. D. he marched into Judea, every where spreading the most cruel havoc and devastation ; the Roman soldiers, on various occasions, sparing neither infants nor the aged.

For fifteen months Vespasian proceeded in this sanguinary career, during which period he reduced all the strong towns of Galilee, and the chief of those in Judea, destroying at least one hundred and fifty thousand of the inhabitants.............

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Der Alte

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That would be the case if we were talking about a mere mortal.

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.​
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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That would be the case if we were talking about a mere mortal.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
The Roman army besieged Jerusalem like lightning as prophecied by Jesus and OT Prophets.

God often used Heathen armies to spank the Jews when they got out of line.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance.

The consternation and terror which now prevailed induced many inhabitants to desire that a foreign foe might come, and effect their deliverance. Such was the horrible condition of the place when Titus and his army presented themselves, and encamped before Jerusalem ; but, alas ! not to deliver it from its miseries but to fulfill the prediction, and vindicate the benevolent warning of our Lord : ....................



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Der Alte

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Only by stretching and distorting can the Roman siege and destruction of Jerusalem be made to appear to fulfill Matt 24:27-31.

Mat 24:27-31
(27)
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

When did these events happen. Or is all this figurative?

1. the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Not a Roman army. DA]
2. Immediately after the tribulation of those days
3. shall the sun be darkened, and
4. the moon shall not give her light, and
5. the stars shall fall from heaven, and
6. the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
7. then shall appear the sign of the Son of man [Not a Roman army. DA] in heaven: and then shall
8. all the tribes of the earth mourn, and
9. they shall see the Son of man [Not the Roman army. DA] coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
10. And he shall send his angels
11. with a great sound of a trumpet, and
12. they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Excellent!


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Der Alte

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Copy/pasted from this and other websites without proper attribution.

Endtime Warnings
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Hidden Manna

Futurist seem to believe all preterist are nuts. Sometimes we have to show them we are not.

Copy/pasted from this and other websites without proper attribution.

Endtime Warnings
That is rather mute now, as that member hasn't been on CF since mid 2008

I miss him!

http://www.christianforums.com/users/26889/

Last Activity: 1st July 2008 11:26 PM

You should gander at this lengthy post he put up just before he left

http://www.christianforums.com/t5083739-5/#post35060802


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Evergreen48

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The truth can not be stretched or distorted. And

no, it is not figurative.

Acts 1:9. "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."


So, as can be clearly seen that there was no lightning involved with Jesus' ascension. It was a very quiet event, not beheld by anyone except his immediate disciples. And the angel said clearly that he was coming again in the same manner in which he left.



NO, not the Roman army, or even Jesus himself was seen at that time. But the SIGN of the Son of man. Spiritually speaking (not figuratively speaking, for there is a difference between the two things), His sign being: the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Repeat: "Jesus speaks in prophetic language concerning the 'powers of heaven being shaken'. The light from the sun and the stars standing for the great sources of spiritual wisdom which God had so graciously bestowed upon his chosen people. All of what was left of such he took away when his once beloved city, and the temple which stood within were sacked and burned by the Romans. We find this same kind of prophetic language used in Isa. 13:10, 24:23, Ezek. 32:8, Amos 5:20, Zeph. 1:15."
 
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interpreter

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Mat. 24:30-31 was fulfilled in the 4th century when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode white horse and conquered with a bow. And he sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.
 
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parousia70

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Where is the scriptural instruction to Interpret language like Stars falling, sun darkening, heaven rolling up like a scroll Locally and Figuratively when it is used to describe already fulfilled National Judgments in the OT, but suddenly apply a polar opposite "literal, universal" interpretation to the exact same language when it is found in the NT?
 
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