Fruit and Salvation

[JM]

I read and hear a lot from ministers telling people to look to their works for assurance of salvation. They don’t come right out and say it but they will say things like, “well, if you don’t have fruit/victory/practical change in your life maybe you should doubt your salvation…” I find this a disturbing trend. Anyone else notice this? How do you explain the connection between fruit and salvation?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Usually, that kind of sermon involves a study on the book of James, as you probably already surmised. I was previously a participant of another Christian forum that virtually collapsed when its founder floundered in doubt over his own salvation because of his obsession with pornography. Though salvation is by faith and not earned through works, our faith is made manifest through those works (James 2:14-26). What, then, do we say to a believer who struggles with sin but claims to have faith? We say that he is a weaker brother with a weak faith. Nevertheless, he has faith. It may be a faith on stony or weedy soil, destined to die (Matthew 13:1-9), or it may only be a tiny faith destined to grow into the largest plant in the garden (Matthew 13:31-32). In either case, only time will tell. Salvation is like a race: the winning and losing only happens at the finish line (1 Corinthians 9:24). For now, only God knows how it will end, and we are left to make guesses by the progress that we observe.

I think it would be fairer to say, then, that a man's works are not evidence for his salvation, but they are evidence for his faith. Given all of the verses I just cited, it would seem an important distinction to make:

• James said that faith without works is dead. He was talking specifically about faith, not salvation. It seems like a trivial distinction, because we say that we are saved by faith, and we, therefore, tend to equate the two.
• The parable of the sower shows that faith, or something resembling faith, can spring up temporarily and be lost. This makes a distinction from the faith that saves, which springs up permanently. Cross this with the last point, and it means that while works demonstrate faith, they are not a guarantor of salvation. Faithfulness today is no predictor of ultimately successful faith, and therefore no predictor of one's ultimate salvation.
• The parable of the mustard seed shows that faith can change in size and scope. Therefore, though works may evince the development of one's current faith, they are not a predictor of one's ultimate development. Failure in works today is no predictor of ultimately failing faith, and therefore no predictor of one's ultimate salvation. This is the contrapositive of the last point.
• The comparison of our life to a race (1 Corinthians 9:24) tells the difference between running well and running to win. A racer can run well but still not win, in the same way that a person can play a good Christian and temporarily display a measure of faith, yet not be saved. This point answers the first point: there is a difference between faith and salvation, though they be strongly related. Therefore, works is not a direct indicator of salvation, though they be indirectly related through faith.

 

[JM]

Thanks non, I agree with what you posted, but I'm aiming at the Arminian who places emphasis on looking to their works for assurance. To me, it is a system guaranteed to cause doubt, not "victory." This is contrary to our confessions, "Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification (Jn 1:12; Rom 3:28; 5:1); yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love (James 2:17, 22, 26; Gal. 5:6)."

Looking to our walk takes our eye off Christ and we wrongly rest in our actions...

Quote: There is no promise made that in this life, we shall be set free from the indwelling and the in-working of sin.

Many think that their flesh is to become “progressively holier and holier” — that sin after sin is to be removed gradually out of the heart — until at last they are almost made perfect in the flesh.

But this is an idle dream, and one which, sooner or later will be crudely and roughly broken to pieces!

The flesh will ever remain the same — and we shall ever find that the flesh will lust against the Spirit. Our fleshly nature is corrupt to the very core. It cannot be mended. It cannot be sanctified. It is the same at the last, as it was at the first — inherently evil, and as such will never cease to be corrupt until we put off mortality — and with it the body of sin and death.

All we can hope for, long after, expect, and pray for — is that this evil fleshly nature may be subdued, kept down, mortified, crucified, and held in subjection under the power of grace. But as to any such change passing upon the flesh — or taking place in the flesh as to make it holy — it is but a pharisaic delusion, which, promising a holiness in the flesh, leaves us still under the power of sin.

The true sanctification of the new man of grace — which is wrought by a divine power — is utterly distinct from any imagined holiness in the flesh — or any vain dream of its progressive sanctification. - J.C. Philpot

Philpot may have it right. We can never eradicate sin, if we prevent ourselves from sinning in one area of life, I'm convinced we will sin in another. The Arminian is trapped! He is a terrorist to the sin weary soul.

Horatius Bonar, "It is not the strength of faith, but the perfection of the sacrifice, that saves; and no feebleness of faith, no dimness of eye, no trembling of hand, can change the efficacy of our burnt-offering."

Thank you

 

[moonbeam]

In either case, only time will tell. Salvation is like a race: the winning and losing only happens at the finish line (1 Corinthians 9:24). For now, only God knows how it will end, and we are left to make guesses by the progress that we observe.

In regards our salvation I don't accept that the assurance God would have His children have in His promises and the finished work of Christ are adequately captured by your phrase - "we are left to make guesses by the progress that we observe"

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed…[Romans 13:11]

The bedrock of the Christian faith is in the surety, that our surety Jesus Christ, has redeemed us from all unrighteousness and secured our salvation…and that with a great certainty.

The admonitions in scripture to walk in a manner worthy of our calling are specifically designed to elicit the desired result…that result will follow…as the word is Spirit and life and corresponds with the indwelling Spirit and the purposes of God.

In regards to the degree and the time and place where these manifestations of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit take place...God knows, as does his Spirit filled children.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:..[Romans 8:16]

We ought to be conscious of the fact that we are in conflict with our sinful tendencies and strive against them, but we ought never to perceive in our inevitable failures encountered during these strivings that our salvation is in any way threatened or questionable.

I am reminded here of Abraham in regards God's promise to him which boarded on the impossible yet scripture testifies of his faith with commendation - "Who against hope believed in hope"..[Romans 4:18]
.

 

[BryanW92]

I read and hear a lot from ministers telling people to look to their works for assurance of salvation. They don’t come right out and say it but they will say things like, “well, if you don’t have fruit/victory/practical change in your life maybe you should doubt your salvation…” I find this a disturbing trend. Anyone else notice this? How do you explain the connection between fruit and salvation?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Methodists preach on this A LOT! They like to keep the folks in a constant state of worry because they believe that you can undo the work of Christ and lose salvation by just "not doing enough". It's the basis of the social gospel.

 

[gord44]

edit

 

[Soyeong]

The good works that we do are assurance that our sanctification is in progress, not assurance of our justification.

 

[JM]

The good works that we do are assurance that our sanctification is in progress, not assurance of our justification.

That’s the way it’s often spun but I still believe many miss the point. For example, many Baptists have a Wednesday Bible Study (AWANA) and Youth Program. Many have two Sunday services. It has been my experience that if one doesn’t attend all of the church events they are not seen as being “fruitful.” Those in the congregation are told or given the impression that attendance to these events are evidences of faith…even if it’s just a movie night, BBQ, etc. It’s really just a bunch of professed Christians hanging out.

The London Baptist Confession of Faith , 1689 describes “good works” thusly;
“Good works are only such as God has commanded in his Holy Word,1 and not such as without the warrant thereof are devised by men out of blind zeal, or upon any pretense of good intentions.2”

(1 Mic. 6:8; Heb. 13:21; 2 Matt. 15:9; Isa. 29:13)

“These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith;3 and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,4 strengthen their assurance,5 edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel,6 stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glory God,7 whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,8 that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.9”

(3 James 2:18,22 4 Ps. 116:12,13 5 1 John 2:3,5; 2 Pet. 1:5-11 6 Matt. 5:16 7 1 Tim. 6:1; 1 Pet. 2:15; Phil. 1:11 8 Eph. 2:10 9 Rom 6:22)

So, when a minister calls your attention to witnessing door to door, attendance at AWANA or Bible Study, etc. it really calls your attention from Christ. True, “believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him” those works specially commanded in scripture are the only works that matter. I have 10 commandments and that is enough, I have a difficult time keeping them, so I don’t need to be saddled with man-made commandments as well.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[twin1954]

As I have said many times your works will result in one of two things: it will either rob you of all peace and assurance or it will make you so self-righteous that nobody but you can stand you.

The simple fact is that our works are ordained for us, Eph. 2:10, and we do them without knowing that we are. Matt. 25:34-40. Christ's sheep do what comes naturally and they never look to what they do as a ground for assurance. If anything their works are seen as being little or useless. We love Christ but not as we should and we now it. We love our brothers but not as we should and know it. We seek the honor of Christ but not as we should and know it. I rarely sing about how much I love Him because my love is so little. I sing about His love to me.

If we are honest about our love, works or faith we know that it can never be a ground for assurance. Moreover if we truly look at ourselves as we actually are we will find nothing but sin unless we deceive ourselves. Looking at yourself will pile on a load of guilt that will weigh you down and rob you of all peace. That is why the believer must look to Christ alone. It is all of Him or we have nothing.

 

[twin1954]

Works are never an evidence of faith. Resting in Christ alone as your all in all and enough is evidence of faith.

Works can be counterfeited but rest cannot.

 

[BryanW92]

Works can be counterfeited but rest cannot.

That is the best way to put it that I've ever heard!

 

[JM]

Assume summary twin!

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Is the fruit of the Spirit the same as the fruit of faith? If so the fruit we see is not our own, it's not a work but a disposition, worked out in us by God.

jm

 

[Soyeong]

That’s the way it’s often spun but I still believe many miss the point. For example, many Baptists have a Wednesday Bible Study (AWANA) and Youth Program. Many have two Sunday services. It has been my experience that if one doesn’t attend all of the church events they are not seen as being “fruitful.” Those in the congregation are told or given the impression that attendance to these events are evidences of faith…even if it’s just a movie night, BBQ, etc. It’s really just a bunch of professed Christians hanging out.

I grew up in a Baptist church and attended it for 30 years, so while I went through a Wednesday night Youth Program, I don't recall ever feeling any pressure to attend. Not to say it doesn't happen, just that it was not my sliver of experience.

“These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith;3 and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,4 strengthen their assurance,5 edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel,6 stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glory God,7 whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,8 that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.9”

Faith expresses itself as works, so works are evidence of faith, but we're talking about the day to day faith in God to lead us through our daily lives in the process of sanctification, not the eternal faith in our salvation.

(3 James 2:18,22 4 Ps. 116:12,13 5 1 John 2:3,5; 2 Pet. 1:5-11 6 Matt. 5:16 7 1 Tim. 6:1; 1 Pet. 2:15; Phil. 1:11 8 Eph. 2:10 9 Rom 6:22)

It's easier to see verses you're talking about if you don't use abbreviations or shorten the verse numbers, so James 2:18, James 2:22, Psalms 116:12-13 etc.

So, when a minister calls your attention to witnessing door to door, attendance at AWANA or Bible Study, etc. it really calls your attention from Christ. True, “believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him” those works specially commanded in scripture are the only works that matter. I have 10 commandments and that is enough, I have a difficult time keeping them, so I don’t need to be saddled with man-made commandments as well.

There is much more that is righteous than what the law instructs and much more that is sinful than what the law prohibits, so we should be guides by the spiritual principles behind the law. The works instructed in Scripture and the spiritual principles behind them include 10 commandments, but are much more than them.

 

[Soyeong]

The simple fact is that our works are ordained for us, Eph. 2:10, and we do them without knowing that we are.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

The OT equips us for every good work, so I'd say we can have a pretty good idea of what the good works that God prepared for us to do are.

 

[JM]

As I have said many times your works will result in one of two things: it will either rob you of all peace and assurance or it will make you so self-righteous that nobody but you can stand you.

The simple fact is that our works are ordained for us, Eph. 2:10, and we do them without knowing that we are. Matt. 25:34-40. Christ's sheep do what comes naturally and they never look to what they do as a ground for assurance. If anything their works are seen as being little or useless. We love Christ but not as we should and we now it. We love our brothers but not as we should and know it. We seek the honor of Christ but not as we should and know it. I rarely sing about how much I love Him because my love is so little. I sing about His love to me.

If we are honest about our love, works or faith we know that it can never be a ground for assurance. Moreover if we truly look at ourselves as we actually are we will find nothing but sin unless we deceive ourselves. Looking at yourself will pile on a load of guilt that will weigh you down and rob you of all peace. That is why the believer must look to Christ alone. It is all of Him or we have nothing.

Exactly....

 

[hedrick]

We have two separate questions here: existential and doctrinal. That is, what do we tell someone who is afraid they’re not saved, and does salvation depend upon what we do. (I avoid the term “works,” because Paul seems to have used it to mean a very specific kind of actions.)

I’m going to look at the doctrinal question first.

The problem is that we have two apparently conflicting types in Scripture:

* Paul saying that we are justified by faith, and Jesus saying that God saves repentant followers.
* Jesus’ many parables about judgement, and Paul’s statements in 1 Cor and elsewhere about actions that are unacceptable in Christians.

Jesus’ teaching about God’s gracious love, and his extravagant forgiveness are enough to dispel any concept of God weighing good deeds against bad. But what do we make of the statements about judgement based on actions?

I think the key is note that Jesus’ examples of judgement involve unrepentant sinners, usually ones that have abused other people or shown in other ways that they simply don’t care about anyone else.

My impression is that both Jesus and Paul see people as divided into two categories, sheep and goats if you like. There are followers of Jesus, and those who refuse. There are those with faith, and those without. The followers aren’t perfect. Paul is clear that we are simul justus et peccator. Jesus makes a similar point in the story about the repentant sinner in the Temple. But Jesus’ followers by definition care about other people, and are repentant when they sin.

Jesus’ threats, it seems to me, serve basically as calls to repentance. If you don’t want to end up in the outer darkness, says Jesus, repent. The call to repentance has a different significance for those who are already following Jesus and those who are not.

For those who are, it serves as a reminder of the seriousness of the call to follow Jesus, and the need for daily repentance. For those who are not, repentance means a more serious change, acknowledging the responsibility before God and calling on him for help. That’s really a call to faith, but to take responsibility for actions before God is far more likely to produce real followers than simply to preach the virtues of faith in the abstract.

But people who doubt their salvation normally understand their responsibility and the need for repentance all too well. They need for the other side to be emphasized. That we look to God for salvation not to ourselves.

The problem with sermons of the type described in the OP is that salvation isn’t based on our actions so much as on taking responsibility for our actions before God, i.e. faith in him. Radical call to discipleship is present in the Gospels, but the theological context matters. All too often it’s wrong, and it leads Christians to look to their own actions when they should be looking to Christ.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Thanks non, I agree with what you posted, but I'm aiming at the Arminian who places emphasis on looking to their works for assurance. To me, it is a system guaranteed to cause doubt, not "victory." This is contrary to our confessions, "Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification (Jn 1:12; Rom 3:28; 5:1); yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love (James 2:17, 22, 26; Gal. 5:6)."

Looking to our walk takes our eye off Christ and we wrongly rest in our actions...

Quote: There is no promise made that in this life, we shall be set free from the indwelling and the in-working of sin.

Many think that their flesh is to become “progressively holier and holier” — that sin after sin is to be removed gradually out of the heart — until at last they are almost made perfect in the flesh.

But this is an idle dream, and one which, sooner or later will be crudely and roughly broken to pieces!

The flesh will ever remain the same — and we shall ever find that the flesh will lust against the Spirit. Our fleshly nature is corrupt to the very core. It cannot be mended. It cannot be sanctified. It is the same at the last, as it was at the first — inherently evil, and as such will never cease to be corrupt until we put off mortality — and with it the body of sin and death.

All we can hope for, long after, expect, and pray for — is that this evil fleshly nature may be subdued, kept down, mortified, crucified, and held in subjection under the power of grace. But as to any such change passing upon the flesh — or taking place in the flesh as to make it holy — it is but a pharisaic delusion, which, promising a holiness in the flesh, leaves us still under the power of sin.

The true sanctification of the new man of grace — which is wrought by a divine power — is utterly distinct from any imagined holiness in the flesh — or any vain dream of its progressive sanctification. - J.C. Philpot

Philpot may have it right. We can never eradicate sin, if we prevent ourselves from sinning in one area of life, I'm convinced we will sin in another. The Arminian is trapped! He is a terrorist to the sin weary soul.

Horatius Bonar, "It is not the strength of faith, but the perfection of the sacrifice, that saves; and no feebleness of faith, no dimness of eye, no trembling of hand, can change the efficacy of our burnt-offering."

Thank you

Awesome post, thank you JM.

 

[JonahRR]

...I find this a disturbing trend. Anyone else notice this? How do you explain the connection between fruit and salvation?
jm

JM, I agree with you. If you look at the stories of people in the Bible, you will see long periods of time without fruit. I believe that God uses time in ways that we can't understand, until we look back on it. Did Jesus need to spend 40 days alone ib the desert? Or 30 years before his ministry began? What about Moses' many years before returning to lead Israel?

Walking with the Lord is a journey over mountains, valleys, and deserts. It is not God looking at us and inpatiently asking, "what have you done for me lately?" The ideas of waiting, rest(as mentioned above by someone else), healing and growing are very important. Christianity isn't something we do, but something we are- something God creates in us.

Cheers.

 

[AMR]

I read and hear a lot from ministers telling people to look to their works for assurance of salvation. They don’t come right out and say it but they will say things like, “well, if you don’t have fruit/victory/practical change in your life maybe you should doubt your salvation…” I find this a disturbing trend. Anyone else notice this? How do you explain the connection between fruit and salvation?

We are commanded to examine ourselves. A good tree will bear fruit. It may not bear a bunch of fruit but good fruit will be in evidence. In fact, the very concern to examine oneself is likely evidence of good fruit.

AMR

 

[twin1954]

We are commanded to examine ourselves. A good tree will bear fruit. It may not bear a bunch of fruit but good fruit will be in evidence. In fact, the very concern to examine oneself is likely evidence of good fruit.

AMR

We are told to examine ourselves whether we are in the faith not whether we have fruit. I am not saying that we don't have fruit but that it can never be a ground of assurance.