From whom or what is God saving us?

[tonychanyt]

If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and the Creator of all things, as depicted in the Bible, then from whom or what is God saving us?

An angel of the Lord spoke to Joseph in a dream in Matthew 1:

21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

God cleanses us from our sins.

John 3:

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

1Th 1:

10b Jesus … delivers us from the wrath to come.

Jesus saves us from God's wrath.

We have been born again in the Holy Spirit. God has given us his Spirit to dwell in us to deliver us from ourselves and Satan. God lives in us to enable us to do the right things daily instead of going our selfish ways or Satan's ways.

Given that God is responsible for everything, wouldn't this imply that God also created the conditions for our potential damnation, including Hell itself?

Right. This world is a testing place for everyone.

If God truly has the power to create or eliminate any realm of existence, why would Hell be necessary at all?

To encourage people to choose eternal life and deter people from choosing hell.

It appears that God is saving us from a fate He Himself ordained. How can this be reconciled with the concept of a benevolent and all-powerful deity?

He is wiser than us. Isaiah 55:

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.

From whom or what is God saving us?

God saves us from our sins and self-destructive ways, from Satan, and from God's wrath.

 

[Ace777]

If God is omnipotent, omniscient

Neither of those words are in the Bible.

 

[tonychanyt]

Neither of those words are in the Bible.

See Is God omniscient? and follow up there.

 

[Ace777]

See Is God omniscient? and follow up there.

What is the word in Hebrew so I can study what the meaning is. Jesus can add words to what Moses gives us. Is this a word Jesus used in His sermon on the mount?

 

[tonychanyt]

What is the word in Hebrew so I can study what the meaning is.

What word do you mean? I prefer to debate in precision.

 

[fhansen]

If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and the Creator of all things, as depicted in the Bible, then from whom or what is God saving us?

In the eternal sense, God saves us from his eventual wrath on the last day. John 5:


In the temporal sense, we have been born again in the Holy Spirit. God has given us his Spirit to dwell in us to deliver us from ourselves and Satan. God lives in us to enable us to do the right things daily, instead of going our own selfish ways or Satan's ways.

Given that God is responsible for everything, wouldn't this imply that God also created the conditions for our potential damnation, including Hell itself?

Right. This world is a testing place for everyone.

If God truly has the power to create or eliminate any realm of existence, why would Hell be necessary at all?

To encourage people to choose eternal life and deter people from choosing hell.

It appears that God is saving us from a fate He Himself ordained. How can this be reconciled with the concept of a benevolent and all-powerful deity?

He is wiser than us. Isaiah 55:


From whom or what is God saving us?

God saves us from our self-destructive ways, from Satan, and from God's wrath.

Fallen man’s basic state of injustice is his alienation from God. This is chaos, an anomaly in creation, an offense against truth and righteousness and God’s will. This separation is the essence of the state sometimes referred to as “original sin”. It’s the reason Jesus came, to reconcile man with God, to restore man to the communion with God that man was made for and is lost, sick, dead without. We’re here to learn what Adam missed and dismissed in Eden: “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

A quote of mine from another thread:

“In the ancient churches, with, perhaps, the East teaching this best, man is meant to embark on a journey, with God, that causes man to begin to be who he was created to be, increasingly like Him. This takes place after man has first alienated himself from God, with all that entails. But God’s overall plan is to produce something, something much better than He began with, out of man, His masterpiece, the crown jewel of His creation, a being made in His own image and created for great dignity even if he so often tramples upon that in his fallen state.

The basic human material is good, since God created it. Salvation isn’t just a matter of saving some of His bad, worthless, undeserving sinful wretches while damning the rest, but it’s about planting a seed and cultivating it and bringing it to full fruition, to the purpose it was intended for. And in order to bring about the highest level of “value” in man, man must be on board with the program; he must participate in this righteous work of God’s. If I haven’t said it in this thread already, man is like a flower who wouldn’t know how to orchestrate his own blossoming, but who can nonetheless thwart it, due to the free will God granted to man. And this thwarting began in Eden. Adam didn’t just think he had free will, he had it and used it, wrongly; sin or disobedience would be impossible without it. And the only reason for ever having this freedom to begin with is so that man might finally come to choose rightly.

And that choosing means to move nearer to God rather than farther from Him. And this nearness to Him, meaning to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength to put it another way, is the essence, the basis, and the very source of man’s righteousness or justice. With that love Adam would’ve obeyed naturally, spontaneously-but humanity apparently wasn’t ready for that yet. And faith, with God drawing us into it by His grace, is the first baby-step on this journey back to Him, ultimately to full union as we become increasingly aligned with Him in will. And until then, we can always fall back away.

We’re here to come to know and to value God and His love, and the more we do so the more completely we embrace it-and then He gives us even more, grace moving on to more grace yet. He doesn’t dismiss our willingness, rather He covets and coaxes it out of us, and builds upon it. Anyway, this is a quite different concept than what many Christian traditions believe and teach.”

Man has a purpose, a telos, as all creation does each in its own way. For man this is to be fully united to God in a bond of mutual love. In this and only in this will man find full and uncompromised wholeness, holiness, satisfaction, peace, happiness. “God, alone, satisfies.” Thomas Aquinas

 

[Ace777]

What word do you mean?

I prefer not to attribute words to the Bible that are not in the Bible.

 

[tonychanyt]

I prefer not to attribute words to the Bible that are not in the Bible.

Same here. See A Disciplined Probabilistic Approach to Biblical Hermeneutics and follow up there

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello Tony (@tonychanyt), in short (and in response to this thread's title alone), we are being saved from God, by God, for God.

Also, as the Catechism's Q & A #1 tells us (see below), we are being saved so that we can "enjoy Him forever" (ALL, saved or not, will glorify Him).

God bless you!!

--David

Westminster Shorter Catechism​

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?​

A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him forever.​

​

1 Cor. 10:31; Rom. 11:36; Ps. 73:25-28.​

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello again Tony (@tonychanyt), I thought that I should add this, Matthew 1:21 tells us that the Lord Jesus came here to save His people from their sins. I believe (based upon many other verses/passages) that this includes being saved from the penalty of sin (including God's wrath in the age to come), from the power that sin holds over us in this life, and finally, from the presence of sin altogether in eternity (in the future Kingdom of God).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I'll return tomorrow and address your OP next, if I feel that I have something to add.

 

[Ace777]

from the presence of sin altogether in eternity

So there is no more sin but people are punished for all eternity for something that no longer exists?

 

[David Lamb]

Neither of those words are in the Bible.

The actual words are not in our English translations of the bible, but the meanings most certainly are. "Omnipotent" means "all-powerful", "almighty". Does the bible say that God is almighty? Yes:

“When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I [am] Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.” (Ge 17:1 NKJV)

"Omniscient" means "all-knowing". Does the bible say that God knows all things? Yes:

“For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.” (1Jo 3:20 NKJV)

There are all sorts of English words and phrases which aren't found in the bible, but which Christians use to describe truths and teachings which are. A few examples are: trinity, missionary, prayer meeting.

If the post to which you were replying was stating a meaning that was not in the bible that would be different, of course.

 

[tonychanyt]

I thought that I should add this, Matthew 1:21 tells us that the Lord Jesus came here to save His people from their sins.

Good point. I added it to my OP. Thanks.

 

[Ace777]

"almighty"

Then use the word almighty. You can do what you want but I am not interested in words that are not in the Bible.

 

[David Lamb]

Then use the word almighty. You can do what you want but I am not interested in words that are not in the Bible.

Are you saying that we should (in ordinary conversation, discussions on forums like this one, and other everyday situations) we should only use words that are found in English translations of the bible? Do you believe that it is more acceptable to God to call Him "almighty" than to say He is "omnipotent"? God looks at the heart. What is in our hearts when we use the words?

 

[Ace777]

"omnipotent"?

You can do what you want but I do not have a conversation about words like this. I am too busy trying to learn the word of God.

 

[St_Worm2]

If God is omnipotent, omniscient..........

Neither of those words are in the Bible.

Revelation 19 (KJV)
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God ~omnipotent~ reigneth.
.

 

[St_Worm2]

So there is no more sin but people are punished for all eternity for something that no longer exists?

Hello Ace777, my post referred to believers alone, those who have been saved from the penalty and power of sin in their lives. Unlike the saints of God, I don't believe the Bible tells us that the reprobate will stop sinning in eternity, does it? However, whatever the case may be, unbelievers die in their sins apart from the atonement, redemption and forgiveness that can only be found in Christ (and since they are unable to atone for their own sins, their sins can never be forgiven).

You know, your post seems to be aiming us towards having a conversation about universalism and/or annihilationism. Those two topics need to be discussed on the Unorthodox Theology board, not here. Also, broaching those two topics here will result in more than a little thread drift, they will end up derailing Tony's thread.

So, if you'd like to discuss them further, why not start a thread about them on the correct board so that the mods won't take it down? If you do, start a thread about one or both topics, please let me know, as I'd like to join in if I think that I have something to add (you know, maybe Tony has a thread about one or both those topics already in place .. Tony/@tonychanyt?)

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Ace777]

Revelation 9 (KJV)
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God ~omnipotent~ reigneth.

This means there is nothing more powerful than God.

 

[Ted-01]

This means there is nothing more powerful than God.

And yet, it's a word in the Bible, that you choose not to use yourself, isn't it?