From Where do the RCC and the EOC get the Authority they claim for themselves?

[chestertonrules]

All for one & one for all...

Which one?

 

[chestertonrules]

Good to see you CR!

We already have a single authority ... Jesus.

So much for that theory (JK)
although I can understand why you say that.
What is 'unity'?

Good to see you to sunlover.

Unfortunately, we don't have a single authority.

Many Christians reject the Church Jesus started, so we have multiple authorities teaching multiple doctrines.

They can't all be right.

Jesus only promised that the spirit would lead the apostles into all truth. We don't have that same promise. We need to adhere to their message, which is singular, not plural.

Here's what he prayed for us:

John 17
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

 

[Rick Otto]

You can never have enough unity.
Or skirt length.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Many Christians reject the Church Jesus started, so we have multiple authorities teaching multiple doctrines.

Which Church did He start?

 

[chestertonrules]

You can never have enough unity.
Or skirt length.

You must have a teenage daughter!

 

[Rick Otto]

Proof is like unity & authority.... you can never have too much, and you never seem to have enough...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Would The Churches of Antioch and Jerusalem be included in this Unity that must have existed from the beginning?

If so can you point out to me at what time these two Churches who are older than The Church of Rome became subservient to Rome?

As far as I know, The Church of Antioch has never been subservient to The Church of Rome.

If indeed this Unity can not exist without all The Churches being unified under The Church of Rome then The Churches of Antioch and Jerusalem must never have been part of that unity.

Forgive me...

 

[sunlover1]

Good to see you to sunlover.

Unfortunately, we don't have a single authority.

Many Christians reject the Church Jesus started, so we have multiple authorities teaching multiple doctrines.

They can't all be right.

Jesus only promised that the spirit would lead the apostles into all truth. We don't have that same promise.

So... then you believe that whenever Jesus was speaking to a specific
group that message was for that group alone's ears?

We need to adhere to their message, which is singular, not plural.

Here's what he prayed for us:

John 17
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you

Then we need to listen to what the Spirit says.
Do we do that?
Dunno about you, but personally, I often miss it
due to selfishness or business etc.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Would The Churches of Antioch and Jerusalem be included in this Unity that must have existed from the beginning?

If so can you point out to me at what time these two Churches who are older than The Church of Rome became subservient to Rome?

As far as I know, The Church of Antioch has never been subservient to The Church of Rome.

If indeed this Unity can not exist without all The Churches being unified under The Church of Rome then The Churches of Antioch and Jerusalem must never have been part of that unity.

Forgive me...

I do not wish to be subservient to either Rome or Jerusalem

Galatians 4:3 Thus also when we were babes under the elements/stoiceia <4747> of the World were in servitude

Galatian 4:25 For the Hagar Sinai Mount is in the Arabia is together-elemental/su-stoicei <4960> (5719) yet to the now Jerusalem in servitude with the offsprings of Her.

 

[chestertonrules]

Would The Churches of Antioch and Jerusalem be included in this Unity that must have existed from the beginning?

If so can you point out to me at what time these two Churches who are older than The Church of Rome became subservient to Rome?

As far as I know, The Church of Antioch has never been subservient to The Church of Rome.

If indeed this Unity can not exist without all The Churches being unified under The Church of Rome then The Churches of Antioch and Jerusalem must never have been part of that unity.

Forgive me...

It's not a matter of subservience to Rome, it is a matter of the Unity under the See of Peter. When Peter and the Church leaders were in Jerusalem, that is where the Christians in Antioch turned when they had a question about the faith.(Acts 10-15)

When the Christians in Corinth had a question about the faith in approximately 95 AD, they sent their question to Rome, not because it was Rome, but because that is where the successor of Peter was located.

 

[chestertonrules]

So... then you believe that whenever Jesus was speaking to a specific
group that message was for that group alone's ears?


Then we need to listen to what the Spirit says.
Do we do that?
Dunno about you, but personally, I often miss it
due to selfishness or business etc.

Not necessarily. It depends on what he said. If he said... "God so loved the world....etc.", then I think we can assume he is making a universal point.


The spirit convicts of sin and can lead us to make moral choices. However, with regard to the Truth, Jesus was very clear that we should be following the authority he granted.

Three more verses to consider:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Jesus wants us to listen to the Church when we have disagreements. How can we do this if we don't know what the Church is?

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

I think this indicates that if we think the spirit is telling us something different than those sent by Jesus that we are making a mistake. Do you agree?

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

I don't believe I have this power. I do believe the successors of the apostles have this power. What do you think?

 

[Thekla]

I saw his post. It provided no proof.


It's a shame that you feel that way.

Can you concede that unity will never occur without a single leader accepted by all Christians?

Christ is the head of the Church.

The particular definition of the role of the pope is the matter of concern, not whether the person who fills that role is from the east or west.

 

[Thekla]

It's not a matter of subservience to Rome, it is a matter of the Unity under the See of Peter. When Peter and the Church leaders were in Jerusalem, that is where the Christians in Antioch turned when they had a question about the faith.(Acts 10-15)

When the Christians in Corinth had a question about the faith in approximately 95 AD, they sent their question to Rome, not because it was Rome, but because that is where the successor of Peter was located.

Corinth was a Roman colony.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

?

 

[sunlover1]

Not necessarily. It depends on what he said. If he said... "God so loved the world....etc.", then I think we can assume he is making a universal point.


The spirit convicts of sin and can lead us to make moral choices. However, with regard to the Truth, Jesus was very clear that we should be following the authority he granted.

Three more verses to consider:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Jesus wants us to listen to the Church when we have disagreements. How can we do this if we don't know what the Church is?

We all seem to understand what 'the church' is.
We just understand it differently.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

I think this indicates that if we think the spirit is telling us something different than those sent by Jesus that we are making a mistake. Do you agree?

Certainly. Now to determine who that might be.


But anyhow, we were discussing who is lead into truth

Jesus said that the Spirit would lead them (guide them into truth)
No, I dont believe that there's any possible way that we, who
have been placed in God, who have had His Spirit placed in us,
would now have to go to a man to find truth.
That would be a step backward not forward.
And in the OT, God spoke through prophets.
In the NT, He spoke through His Son (His Word)
Jesus (GOD) didnt speak to the Apostles, He also
spoke to the disciples. God (The Holy Spirit) would
not?

So while God does speak to us through others, He will
also speak now directly to His sons.
No?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So while God does speak to us through others, He will
also speak now directly to His sons.
No?

Some sons will listen, some won't

Matthew 8:12 The yet Sons of the Kingdom shall-be-being-Cast-Out/ek-blhqhsontai <1544> (5701) into the darkness, the Outer/exwteron <1857>, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

Reve 11:2 and the Court/Fold/aulhn <833>, the-one with-out/in/exwqen of-the Sanctuary, be Casting Out!/ek-bale <1544> (5628) Out-side/exw <1854> and not her thou should be measuring, that she was given to the nations.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

[/color]
We all seem to understand what 'the church' is.
We just understand it differently.......

quite humorous

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

quite humorous

What is humurous about it?

 

[Albion]

[/color]
We all seem to understand what 'the church' is.
We just understand it differently.

I don't want to mess with the train of though you were working on but, really, this is a MAJOR problem area here. Many posters think that "the church" is a club with by laws and membership rolls that Jesus set up in opposition to other such clubs, when in reality what he founded was a movement that all true believers belong to. If we could get beyond some of us speaking a totally different language when referring to "church" on these forums, we'd be making a huge advance.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't want to mess with the train of though you were working on but, really, this is a MAJOR problem area here. Many posters think that "the church" is a club with by laws and membership rolls that Jesus set up in opposition to other such clubs, when in reality what he founded was a movement that all true believers belong to. If we could get beyond some of us speaking a totally different language when referring to "church" on these forums, we'd be making a huge advance.

Greetings. I found this thread rather disturbing and my heart goes out to the poster who posted this OP. Absolutely no excuse for the way she was treated on another board.....Sigh

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7335868
I'm really upset, CF is not a nice place