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From Where do the RCC and the EOC get the Authority they claim for themselves?

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Thekla

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Well, I have a problem someone saying a particular faith has no doctrine. If they did, I don't imagine anyone took him/her seriously. All churches have doctrine. Now if you're talking about Josiah stating that Sola Scriptura is not actually a "doctrine" he is correct. Whether one believes in Sola Scriptura is not something that has any bearing on our salvation. So, in that sense it is not a "doctrine."

the statement per memory, was there was doctrine, but no dogma

(not the place for it perhaps, but interesting nonetheless: if Sola Scriptura has no impact on salvation, what does ie. what is the core and what is the purpose of SS and additionally, doctrine. I'm not trying to be irritating, instead I'm trying to raise questions to discover information that may be missing in the conversation, or trace 'impact' or 'lived outs' to give me a better sense of the matter and apparent differences in "ways of" living through/out faith.)
 
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racer

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the statement per memory, was there was doctrine, but no dogma

(not the place for it perhaps, but interesting nonetheless: if Sola Scriptura has no impact on salvation, what does ie. what is the core and what is the purpose of SS and additionally, doctrine. I'm not trying to be irritating, instead I'm trying to raise questions to discover information that may be missing in the conversation, or trace 'impact' or 'lived outs' to give me a better sense of the matter and apparent differences in "ways of" living through/out faith.)
What we are commanded to do by God. How do we know what He commands? From Scripture. Some more from Augustine:
Chapter 1 .—Summary of the Foregoing Books, and Scope of that Which Follows.

I. The man who fears God seeks diligently in Holy http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.v.vi.i.html?highlight=scripture#highlighthighlightScripture for a knowledge of His will. And when he has become meek through piety, so as to have no love of strife;

Chapter 9.—How We Should Proceed in Studying http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.v.v.ix.html?highlight=scripture#highlighthighlightScripture.
14. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,—to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.
Augustine never used the words Sola Scriptura but he describes it so much better than I possibly every could. :angel:
 
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racer

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The reason I answered in that fashion is be because I already know that the historical roots of the Catholic Church and the lines of apostolic succession have been demonstrated in these forums countless times. I doubt that you would accept those proofs if I demostrated them once again. So what else am I to say? The answers have been given by Catholics and rejected by protestants. What other answer would you have me give?
The very same thing can be said about Sola Scriptura! However, there are many of us here who have taken and accepted correction on many of our misunderstandings on certain Catholic teachings. I've yet to see one EO or RC say, "Oh, that's what is meant by SS. However, I still disagree with the concept." It would be nice if just one person would acknowledge their continued misrepresentation of SS (intended or otherwise). :)
 
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racer

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Thank-you; I do not disagree :)
Thank you! I actually feel like I've accomplished something here. ( :confused: you were talking to me weren't you? :sorry: )

(But we are still left with the problem of interpretation; even here he says that first fear of God and a meek and pious disposition are needed ...)
Sola Scriptura does not address the problem of misinterpretation of Scripture. That is the fault of fallible humans alone. Nowhere have we been promised that "misinterpretation" will not occur within the church. If this were so, why would we be warned to beware of false teachers?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Thank you! I actually feel like I've accomplished something here. ( :confused: you were talking to me weren't you? :sorry: )


Sola Scriptura does not address the problem of misinterpretation of Scripture. That is the fault of fallible humans alone. Nowhere have we been promised that "misinterpretation" will not occur within the church. If this were so, why would we be warned to beware of false teachers?
LLOJ scared to be a teacher........:blush:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 21:7 They yet inquire of Him saying "Teacher/didaskale <1320>, when? then these shall be and what? the Sign whenever may be being about these to be becoming"

James 3:1 No many teachers be ye becoming! brethren! of me, being aware greater judgement/krima <2917> we shall be receiving.
 
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Thekla

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Thank you! I actually feel like I've accomplished something here. ( :confused: you were talking to me weren't you? :sorry: )


Sola Scriptura does not address the problem of misinterpretation of Scripture. That is the fault of fallible humans alone. Nowhere have we been promised that "misinterpretation" will not occur within the church. If this were so, why would we be warned to beware of false teachers?

pleased to agree with you :)

But to remember; Paul preached the Gospel, but the Gospel was not yet recorded. The shadow (OT) is fufilled by and revealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit and cannot be understood apart from the Gospel (the "unwritten one") that Paul referred to. The understanding of the scriptures is by illumination (which Paul describes to some extent), and by the living in the "mode of the Trinity".
 
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Trento

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Why thank you! We know I can use all the help I can get. ;)


Yes, well you left this part off:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.v.vi.xxvii.html?highlight=scripture#highlight
Chapter 27One Passage Susceptible of Various Interpretations.

38. When, again, not some one interpretation, but two or more interpretations are put upon the same words of Scripture, even though the meaning the writer intended remain undiscovered, there is no danger if it can be shown from other passages of Scripture that any of the interpretations put on the words is in harmony with the truth.
It helps to keep it all in proper context and perspective.

I find the text I highlighted in red telling. Have you ever heard him say anything about "Sacred Tradition" being "completely free from error?" That's not the same as saying common teachings can be trustworthy and accurate.

I'm really confused as to how this comment furthers your argument. Perhaps you could give me a little more help.

Hah! Are you sure you're not trying to make my argument for me? The question posed here does say, "Let us search for the church in the sacred Scriptures" doesn't it? Or am I reading it wrong. Because if it says what it appears to say, that sort contradicts what the RCs have been arguing doesn't it?

Oh, I see your point now--I think. :confused:

I will make a few of points here. 1) Authority does not necessarily equate to rule or power over. It often speaks to a level of knowledge or expertise. Nobody here denies that any church possesses that. 2) The "c"atholic church of which Augustine speaks is not the "C"atholic Church of today. 3) Now that we have established that Augustine was a faithful follower/teacher/father/doctor of the Church, we can infer quite accurately from his teachings to what regard and esteem the church of His day held Scripture. Can we not? If he is merely teaching what he has learned from the church then we know the Church regarded Scripture to be of a "'sublime authority' than the mortals through whom it was dispensed whiled they yet lived."

Sure would be nice if you would post links so we don't have to hunt these quotes down. Here's an interesting tidbit:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.v.vi.xxvii.html?highlight=scripture#highlight

Chapter 31.—Use of Dialectics. Of Fallacies.

49. As, then, valid conclusions may be drawn not only from true but from false propositions, the laws of valid reasoning may easily be learnt in the schools, outside the pale of the Church. But the truth of propositions must be inquired into in the sacred books of the Church. "To be sure, although on this matter, we cannot quote a clear example taken from the canonical Scriptures, at any rate, on this question, we are following the true thought of Scriptures when we observe what has appeared good to the universal Church which the authority of these same Scriptures recommends to you" C. Cresconius I:33
The author is not saying that Scripture does not necessarily address a set of particular examples, only that it may not clearly address them.

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Too brief to address and no more time to hunt down the entire quote.
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So, what are you suggesting we infer from this passage, that Augustine thought that it was/is okay to simply accept something at face value of whatever whoever tells us and we know no better?
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Here are a couple of other quotes I came across.
Chapter 28.— It is Safer to Explain a Doubtful Passage by Other Passages of Scripture Than by Reason.

39. When, however, a meaning is evolved of such a kind that what is doubtful in it cannot be cleared up by indubitable evidence from Scripture, it remains for us to make it clear by the evidence of reason. But this is a dangerous practice. For it is far safer to walk by the light of Holy Scripture; so that when we wish to examine the passages that are obscured by metaphorical expressions, we may either obtain a meaning about which there is no controversy, or if a controversy arises, may settle it by the application of testimonies sought out in every portion of the same Scripture.

Chapter 36.—That Interpretation of Scripture Which Builds Us Up in Love is Not Perniciously Deceptive Nor Mendacious, Even Though It Be Faulty. The Interpreter, However, Should Be Corrected.

41. Whoever takes another meaning out of Scripture than the writer intended, goes astray, but not through any falsehood in Scripture. Nevertheless, as I was going to say, if his mistaken interpretation tends to build up love, which is the end of the commandment, he goes astray in much the same way as a man who by mistake quits the high road, but yet reaches through the fields the same place to which the road leads. He is to be corrected, however, and to be shown how much better it is not to quit the straight road, lest, if he get into a habit of going astray, he may sometimes take cross roads, or even go in the wrong direction altogether.

This last quote reminds me of an analogy I used to use showing how the Holy Spirit leads us all the same (I use a master and three dogs), it is we who follow who go astray. Eventually, we all get to the same place, it just takes some of us longer to get there. (just ask me if you want me to repost)


We could argue back and forth on St. Augustine. I will use Protestant Patristic scholars who have studied the more than a million words of St Augustine to make this short.

Augustine, therefore, manifestly acknowledges a gradual advancement of the church doctrine, which reaches its corresponding expression from time to time through the general councils; but a progress within the truth, without positive error, for in a certain sense, as against heretics, he made the authority of Holy Scripture dependent on the authority of the catholic church, in his famous dictum against the Manichaean heretics: "I would not believe the gospel, did not the authority of the catholic church compel me." . . . The Protestant church makes the authority of the general councils, and of all ecclesiastical tradition, depend on the degree of its conformity to the Holy Scriptures; while the Greek and Roman churches make Scripture and tradition coordinate.

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity: A.D. 311-600, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1974; reproduction of 5th revised edition of 1910, Chapter V, section 66, "The Synodical System. The Ecumenical Councils," pp. 344-345


Augustine's legacy to the middle ages on the question of Scripture and Tradition is a two-fold one. In the first place, he reflects the early Church principle of the coinherence of Scripture and Tradition. While repeatedly asserting the ultimate authority of Scripture, Augustine does not oppose this at all to the authority of the Church Catholic . . . The Church has a practical priority: her authority as expressed in the direction-giving meaning of commovere is an instrumental authority, the door that leads to the fullness of the Word itself.But there is another aspect of Augustine's thought . . . we find mention of an authoritative extrascriptural oral tradition. While on the one hand the Church "moves" the faithful to discover the authority of Scripture, Scripture on the other hand refers the faithful back to the authority of the Church with regard to a series of issues with which the Apostles did not deal in writing. Augustine refers here to the baptism of heretics . . .
(Heiko Oberman, The Harvest of Medieval Theology, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, revised edition of 1967, 370-371)

Scripture + Tradition.
 
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racer

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pleased to agree with you :)

But to remember; Paul preached the Gospel, but the Gospel was not yet recorded. The shadow (OT) is fufilled by and revealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit and cannot be understood apart from the Gospel (the "unwritten one") that Paul referred to. The understanding of the scriptures is by illumination (which Paul describes to some extent), and by the living in the "mode of the Trinity".
I came across an interesting verse this last week. Of course there are various thoughts concerning which books/scrolls of Paul was speaking. But, I had not noticed this verse before:

II Tim 4:13; The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring [with thee], and the books, [but] especially the parchments.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=7&contentID=3048&commInfo=6&topic=2%20Timothy

13. cloak . . . I left--probably obliged to leave it in a hurried departure from Troas.
Carpus--a faithful friend to have been entrusted with so precious deposits. The mention of his "cloak," so far from being unworthy of inspiration, is one of those graphic touches which sheds a flood of light on the last scene of Paul's life, on the confines of two worlds; in this wanting a cloak to cover him from the winter cold, in that covered with the righteousness of saints, "clothed upon with his house from heaven" [GAUSSEN]. So the inner vesture and outer garment of Jesus, Paul's master, are suggestive of most instructive thought (
Jhn 19:2 ).
books--He was anxious respecting these that he might transmit them to the faithful, so that they might have the teaching of his writings when he should be gone.
especially the parchments--containing perhaps some of his inspired Epistles themselves
.
Of course, other commentaries speculate that these were some of the OT parchments. It's definitely something to consider. Hmmm?
 
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racer

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We could argue back and forth on St. Augustine.
Which you and I have done "ad nauseating" ;) .
I will use Protestant Patristic scholars who have studied the more than a million words of St Augustine to make this short.
Trento, Protestants, scholars or otherwise, do not argue for any type of infallibility, unanimous consent, etc . . . . And, since, we clearly know they (these scholars you are quoting) are/were protestant there is no question as to which group with which their beliefs are aligned. So, what one or two or three of them may have said regarding what St. Augustine did nor did not teach, is a moot point.

However, no matter what kind of spin you continually try to put on the citations I give you from a "doctor" of your very church, the meanings are clear to the point no explanations or discussions are necessary.
Augustine, therefore, manifestly acknowledges a gradual advancement of the church doctrine, which reaches its corresponding expression from time to time through the general councils; but a progress within the truth, without positive error,
Can you show me these progressions, Trento, or are you even aware of what this particular Scholar is speaking?
for in a certain sense, as against heretics, he made the authority of Holy Scripture dependent on the authority of the catholic church,

Can you show me from St. Augustine's writings where he did this? Because, without credible substatiation, comments and assertions made by others prove nothing.
in his famous dictum against the Manichaean heretics: "I would not believe the gospel, did not the authority of the catholic church compel me." . . .
Please explain how this statement implies or asserts that Holy Scripture is dependant on the authority of the RC? Because you're still circumventing the fact that, regardless of who "compelled" Augustine to hold Scripture in such high regard--be it the RCC or um, I don't know, God maybe?--the teaching of his day was that Scripture was of more "sublime authority" than those mortals through whom it was dispensed. Do I need to define for you the word "sublime?"
The Protestant church makes the authority of the general councils, and of all ecclesiastical tradition, depend on the degree of its conformity to the Holy Scriptures; while the Greek and Roman churches make Scripture and tradition coordinate.
And this proves what? Did I miss the assertion in there of which of the groups were right?
Augustine's legacy to the middle ages on the question of Scripture and Tradition is a two-fold one. In the first place, he reflects the early Church principle of the coinherence of Scripture and Tradition. While repeatedly asserting the ultimate authority of Scripture, Augustine does not oppose this at all to the authority of the Church Catholic . . .
When St. Augustine or Mr. Schaff apply the term "catholic" in this sense, to what are they referring? We all know it is not the same as the RCC of today. And, what do you infer this statement is saying? It clearly notes that Augustine asserted that Scripture was the "ultimate authority." To argue that this assertion is not in opposition to the authority of the church, neither does it equate the authority of the church with that of Scripture.
The Church has a practical priority: her authority as expressed in the direction-giving meaning of commovere is an instrumental authority, the door that leads to the fullness of the Word itself.
Is this what St. Augustine said, or is it an opinion given by a Protestant Scholar?
But there is another aspect of Augustine's thought . . . we find mention of an authoritative extrascriptural oral tradition.
Where do we find Augustine making this assertion?
While on the one hand the Church "moves" the faithful to discover the authority of Scripture, Scripture on the other hand refers the faithful back to the authority of the Church
Scripture does this? Can you show me where?
with regard to a series of issues with which the Apostles did not deal in writing.
So, how do we know that they dealt with them at all? Where do we find confirmation of this?

:doh:Wait . . . nevermind, you can't answer these questions, you're only quoting other people . . . out of context I might add. Trento, what is your point? These men are self-professed Protestants, if they were in agreement with the claims and assertions of the RCC, I'm guessing they'd be Catholic. However, you can not make the same assured statement regarding Augustine can you?
Augustine refers here to the baptism of heretics . . .
Which has what to do with what?
Scripture + Tradition.
Just to give this argument a bit of serious consideration, let me first as, are you asserting that Scripture + Tradition = Fullness of Truth?

(we'll go with that just for arguments sake for now)

Then consider this:

3 + 3 = 6

and

4 + 2 = 6

5 + 1 = 6

6 + 0 = 6

Just because it may take two parts to make a whole, it doesn't mean that the two parts are of equal weight (authority) does it?

Trento, why don't you just make a few educated guesses and attempt to explain to me to your best understanding why the quotes I provided from Augustine don't mean what they appear to mean? Just this once . . . . :confused:
 
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racer

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I'm always suspicious of a religion that is afraid of receiving inquiries from non-members and refuses to or is unable to explain what it believes. I won't throw in the names of any cults at this point, but we all know those that come to mind.
Thus far in this dicussion, the Orthodox have been much more helpful than the Catholics. I'm just perplexed as to how low the participation in this thread is in comparison to the thread on Sola Scriptura where they're all chiming in like parrots. :confused:

Josiah must feel like the lady in the Movie "Airplane" that starts to wig out and everybody gets in line to smack her . . . I seem to recall someone holding a whole stick of bologna.
 
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racer

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[/size]I read it in the bible- the parts that some haven't highlighted in yellow.

If you're referring to some of my posts, "I" didn't highlight certain parts in yellow. I use blueletterbible.com and when you do a search, the words highlighted in yellow are the words which are listed in the scripture you did a search for. (if you can make heads or tails out of that statement, way to go. I did a poor job of phrasing it)
Should I list the scriptures? Toard what end? We've done so numerous times, and we are told we are misrepresenting or misinterpreting the scriptures.
***sigh***Forgive the cliche', but, "Hello, Pot! I'm kettle!" :wave:
 
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racer

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After you expend effort correcting me as to how CJ wasn't really making loaded statements, you come up with this gem.
Call me ignorant or slanderous, but I sincerely ask, how is this statement loaded?

"HOW do they get the authority from Christ that they think puts them above other churches?"
Why do Protestants and satanists do this? (Entirely valid question since I once knew a satanist who asked a loaded question.)
Do you guys post in your sleep? In trances? In Vacuums? Do you so easily forget the flack you dole out to others? Revisit the SS thread and check out some of your own loaded statements.

But, I'm curious, since this response is clearly in retaliation towards Josiah's much used and resented LDS/JW comparisons, are you likening those groups (LDS/JW) to satanism?

But, really, the curiousity is killing me. Did you really know a satanist?
 
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racer

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Rainbow Books


Available to read online or download as PDF for free :)

They're good for basic knowledge, and usually the first offered to read by my Priest.

I hope they answer your questions, and help bring a more open understanding :)
Sorry, I'm just getting to this. Thank you for the link! :hug:
 
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racer

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EOC claim what authority exactly?
1. We don't place our Bishops over anybody.
2. We don't judge anyone's faith, salvation...etc, (we actually don't even get into doubting) except our own.

The only authority we have is the one that the others already give us (like the Ecumenical Councils - their authority is given not demanded or pre-set).

We also find a direct link with the first Christians and with Christ in spiritual and physical way - in the visible spirit of Christ's teaching, bible, faith, teachings of those before us, testimonies of people glorified by God, praxis, places, churches (most often just the foundations remain)...but above all in the Church (through her survival against all ods, through well known ordination by laying hands which we can trace to Pantecost, through the Liturgy - which for us transcends reality as humans are able to perceive it and joins Heaven and Earth, miracles of God, and the above-emotional and above-intelectual union with God (connected to the Liturgy)....). Thing is - we dont have to abstrach anything from the Bible (not even the names of places) as less important - it's all equaly well tied to the EOC. Another thing is - what I've written is a drop in a sea of what there is - and it's all inteconnected...all points one to another. That's what we know of our Church. Knowing this, we are ordered by God to testify the truth and that's what we are doing - we testify what we believe to be the truth.

In other words - we know who we are. Also - we don't judge who others are - that's for God and themeselves to say.

PS. If all this is non-understandable it's because I have a tough time explaining it with words (especially English). It actually is quite experiential.

PSS. Can somebody answer, what did Christ do in the desert for 40 days? It's not bad to remind ourselves from time to time.


God helps
Nestoj,

I think you did a great job of explaining what you wanted to get across. That is if "I'm" understanding you correctly! ;) However, I just appreciate the non-sarcastic and sincere attempt to explain your beliefs anyway. I'm sorry I just got to your post. :sorry: I would have thanked you sooner! :angel:
 
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racer

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This is quite correct. The Order of Readers is one of several ancient orders in the Church- Reader (of scripture- few were able to ancient times), Doorkeepers, Exorcists, Confessors...
I bear the title as a sign of humility: In the Orthodox Church, an 8 year old can be a Reader.
Interesting, I've wondered about your screen name, but never occurred to me to ask.:doh:So, how do you pronounce Iakovos?
 
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