From Where do the RCC and the EOC get the Authority they claim for themselves?

[Rdr Iakovos]

Did I forget to include an inordinate defensiveness is characteristic of some of these churches? I didn't say you are a cult.

No, heavens no, you simply inferred with a wink.

Now...I DO know for a fact that I made mention of that obsession with educating the rest of us.

Like this?

They're not going to go beyond the pet words you asked not to be used, you know. They never do, which I think is because they aren't able to.

Typing must be easier than speaking around a forked tongue, so-to-speak.

Since we are not members of the church in question, we can't possibly know anything, right?

If you can claim ignorance, than you cannot be found guilty of slander.
Which are you- ignorant, or a slanderer?

 

[Albion]

Anything with an organizing principle can be said to share some characteristics with other things with an organizing principle.

Possibly, but we're not talking in a vaccum about this. Josiah clearly stated on what grounds he was making a comparison.

It's neither the one that Iakavos lept to--that the churches must be the same in every way--or the other extreme that you are raising--that everything is similar to everything else in some way.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Perhaps, sadly, anti-Mormonism reigns here...
Perhaps it is even being imputed to me, oddly enough...
Or maybe it's anti-Catholicism that is being imputed to me....


Let me use a fictional denomination, since RCC and LDS seem to get people's hatred or defenses riled up....

Let's say that I claim that Jesus both authorized and commanded me to establish His denomination: The Church of Jesus Christ (hereafter, I'll use the expression CJC for this denomination). So I do. Now, besides my own self claim that Jesus told me and authorized me to do this, I refer you to the Bible. I refer you to all the places where it says "church" and where it says "Jesus" and where it says "Josiah." Now, I claim that there is ONE authoritative interpreter of Scripture and that's me, so then I tell you that these verses mean that God will establish His Church through me as the CJC - so therefore the Bible says that Christ establsihed and authorized the CJC - I just told you that's what the Bible says and I'm the only authoritative interpreter of Scripture. So, the Bible therefore says that God founed and authorized the CJC. But I have more! I have tradition - sound CJC tradition! Because in time, people came to join the CJC. And I've found some snippets (took me a LOT of work, but well....) and I interpret these snippets (remember: there's only one interpreter in the world: me) to mean that God founded and authorized the CJC as His denomination. SO, therefore, what substantiation do I have that the CJC is authorized by Jesus? Well, as good as it gets! The Bible says so (I told you) and Tradition says so (I told you). Anything unclear?

Now, does that mean that the CJC is NOT authorized by Jesus. No. I'm simply revealing the MANNER in which the substantiation is offered. If you embrace this "reasoning" or rubric for the CJC, I'm sure you also do for the RCC or LDS or whatever - and if you don't, you probably don't for the others.

I'm ONLY pointing out the circular, self-authenticating nature of the substantiation of the claims. NOT that they are valid or invalid.





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[LittleLambofJesus]

If you can claim ignorance, than you cannot be found guilty of slander.
Which are you- ignorant, or a slanderer?

I myself will just claim ignorance........

John 9:39 And said the Jesus "into judgement I, into the world, this, came. That the ones no beholding may be beholding, and the ones beholding, blind may be becoming".
41 Said to them the Jesus "if Blind ye were, not ever ye had sin. Now yet, ye are saying that 'we are Beholding', the sin of ye is remaining".

 

[StreetPreacher82]

Very well said. I actually agree with this statement.

Thank you. I appreciate knowing someone else in the same boat.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Could be. But you haven't said in what way you think they are simila.

Cute.
My r key doesn't wok so vey well.

If you make your case as Josiah did his, we'll consider it. Josiah clearly explained the way that the LDS and the EO or RC are similar.

But here both his and your ignorance are made manifest: We have significant differences with Rome IRT to the development of Dogma and Tradition.
Ergo, the slam is inaccurate with respect to Rome, but completely in left field IRT the EOC.

That's why the rest of us knew perfectly well that he wasn't saying what you assumed.

LOL @ "the rest of us." Gotta love the grandstand.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I do think its fair to ask whether one asks out of a serious interest or a sort of "idle curiosity".

Either one of those would motivate me to some degree of effort. It's the motivation of "seek to gain ammo by which to denigrate" which dissuades me from anything other than pithy rejoinders.

 

[Albion]

People could ask ME instead of trying to divert this thread to a discussion about me.....

Of course, and we probably would have but for the fact that everyone did understand you, with one exception.

If I said that my Toyota was made in Ohio and Hickory Farms Summer Sausage is made in Ohio, it is therefore your conclusion that I MUST believe that Toyotas are made from pork?

Beautiful.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Do we have to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U&feature=related

LOL

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

What does "Rdr Iakovos" mean?

 

[Albion]

Getting back to the topic...

Where do the EO and RCC get the authority they claim for themselves?

Isn't this asking--

"HOW do they get the authority from Christ that they think puts them above other churches?"

 

[Thekla]

I'm still not clear on what "authority" means in this thread (it hasn't been defined afaik).

As I stated, I have looked through more than a dozen books (Orthodox), and found only one reference to "authority" other than the headship of Christ. This reference was about theology, not ecclesiology. As Kristos pointed out, Councils are later found to be authoritative and then called Ecumenical. Is this what is meant ?

"Puts them above other Churches" implies "has authority over". How is this shown in action ?

Finally, as well as a definition, examples of the "authority" of other Churches would be helpful -- it would help to exhibit what is meant in action rather than as "idea".

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Getting back to the topic...

Where do the EO and RCC get the authority they claim for themselves?

Isn't this asking--

"HOW do they get the authority from Christ that they think puts them above other churches?"

I think you may be putting your words in the OP's mouth, so-to-speak.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

If I said that my Toyota was made in Ohio and Hickory Farms Summer Sausage is made in Ohio, it is therefore your conclusion that I MUST believe that Toyotas are made from pork?

Of course, and we probably would have but for the fact that everyone did understand you, with one exception.


Beautiful.

... I actually deleted that (obviously after you responded to it) thinking it will NOW become the issue of this thread that I hate Toyotas or Summer Sausage or Ohio, and start riling about me for that!







.

 

[Thekla]

The location of the organization is not the same as a shared organizational principle unless there are local and state laws that mandate the manner in which the organization is organized and thus some of its organizational principles (which will in turn effect each organization as a whole).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm still not clear on what "authority" means in this thread (it hasn't been defined afaik).....................

Matt 21 is really a neat chapter, especially when JESUS stumped the corrupt Jewish rulers concerning John's baptism.
I poked around in an interlinear and that form of the greek word is used twice in Reve and note Reve 2:5

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 21:25 "The baptism of John, whence/poqen <4159> it was, from heaven or from men"?....... 27 And anwering to the Jesus "not we are aware".

Reve 2:5 Be thou remembering then! whence/poqen <4159> thou have fallen and reform! and the first works do!

poqen <4159> 29 times.....4 times outside the Gospels James 4:1, Reve 2 and 7

 

[Chesterton]

"HOW do they get the authority from Christ that they think puts them above other churches?"

After you expend effort correcting me as to how CJ wasn't really making loaded statements, you come up with this gem.

Why do Protestants and satanists do this? (Entirely valid question since I once knew a satanist who asked a loaded question.)

 

[namericanboy]

What does "Rdr Iakovos" mean?

It probably is referring to the reader positon in his church and Iakovos is a well know name in the Orthodox church....Hence...


We who don't get into latin have no clue what Tu Es Petrus means...What benifit is latin to a believer in Christ?

 

[Chesterton]

We who don't get into latin have no clue what Tu Es Petrus means...

If he told you what it meant, you'd say it didn't.