From Whence Comes Evil?

[repentandbelieve]

Did Satan rebel before or after the creation of Adam and Eve?

Anybody have a specific Bible verse on this?

Before the creation of man, angels were in existence; for when the foundations of the earth were laid, "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy" (Job 38:7) .
Lucifer was in Eden, the garden of God, and he was first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled until iniquity was found in him (Eze 28 12-17).

Based on these two scriptures I'm inclined to believe that the war in heaven occured before the creation of man.

 

[Seeking...]

God created the potential for everything in human existence, including the potential for evil to oppose the potential for good. A broader concept of good and evil coexists within God, God is good because He understands evil and discards it - I believe He prefers for us to do the same.

 

[Buzz Dixon]

Before the creation of man, angels were in existence; for when the foundations of the earth were laid, "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy" (Job 38:7) .
Lucifer was in Eden, the garden of God, and he was first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled until iniquity was found in him (Eze 28 12-17).

Based on these two scriptures I'm inclined to believe that the war in heaven occured before the creation of man.

Thanx for the references. I just checked them in my parrallel Bible. I'm not 100% sure Ezekiel refers to Lucifer, but agree the Job passage does.

PURE RAMPANT SPECULATION ON MY PART FOLLOWS;​

NOT TO BE TAKEN AS HOLY WRIT​

That being said, I'm not all that certain Lucifer's rebellion didn't occur after the creation of mankind.

And I wonder if mankind isn't the reason Lucifer rebelled.

Satan is often called "the Adversary" in Hebrew scripture, a term with legal meaning alluding to a prosecutor or complaintant in a court setting.

God's task for Lucifer and the other "morning star" angels may have been to test mankind, not with an eye to causing us to fail, but to judge our spiritual and moral progress. Just as a child resents being tested, humanity resents temptation, too, even though the testing is meant for our own good.

Or rather, was meant for our own good. I wonder if Lucifer and the other "morning star" angels didn't look at frail, imperfect mankind and say to themselves, "Why are we trying to improve these beastly creatures? God should just eradicate them and start afresh." Lucifer has been called the most beautiful of all the angels; perhaps his delicate sensibilities were assaulted by the grossness of humanity and our stubborn inability to adhere to God's plan.

In other words, Lucifer's rebellion may not have been to gain control of creation (Lucifer may be wicked, but I don't think he's stupid or insane; no way can part of a creation overpower the creator) but an act of defiance against God's command to love and help the human race.

Lucifer's motives may have been to force God to say the human race had failed and should be eliminated. Christ's counterpoint is that he came to serve humanity and through that service, save it.

End of Rampant Speculation.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Thanx for the references. I just checked them in my parrallel Bible. I'm not 100% sure Ezekiel refers to Lucifer, but agree the Job passage does.

PURE RAMPANT SPECULATION ON MY PART FOLLOWS;​

NOT TO BE TAKEN AS HOLY WRIT​

That being said, I'm not all that certain Lucifer's rebellion didn't occur after the creation of mankind.

And I wonder if mankind isn't the reason Lucifer rebelled.

Satan is often called "the Adversary" in Hebrew scripture, a term with legal meaning alluding to a prosecutor or complaintant in a court setting.

God's task for Lucifer and the other "morning star" angels may have been to test mankind, not with an eye to causing us to fail, but to judge our spiritual and moral progress. Just as a child resents being tested, humanity resents temptation, too, even though the testing is meant for our own good.

Or rather, was meant for our own good. I wonder if Lucifer and the other "morning star" angels didn't look at frail, imperfect mankind and say to themselves, "Why are we trying to improve these beastly creatures? God should just eradicate them and start afresh." Lucifer has been called the most beautiful of all the angels; perhaps his delicate sensibilities were assaulted by the grossness of humanity and our stubborn inability to adhere to God's plan.

In other words, Lucifer's rebellion may not have been to gain control of creation (Lucifer may be wicked, but I don't think he's stupid or insane; no way can part of a creation overpower the creator) but an act of defiance against God's command to love and help the human race.

Lucifer's motives may have been to force God to say the human race had failed and should be eliminated. Christ's counterpoint is that he came to serve humanity and through that service, save it.

End of Rampant Speculation.

There is lots of room to speculate as to when and why there was rebellion in heaven. My speculation is that before the entrance of evil, there was peace and joy throughout the universe. All was in perfect harmony to the Creators will. Christ the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father- one in nature, in character, and in purpose, the only being in all all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. By Christ, the Father brought into creation all heavenly beings. And to Christ, equally with the Father, all heaven gave allegiance.
God takes no pleasure in forced allegiance, the law of love being the foundation of the government of God.
Evil originated with him, who next to Christ, had been most honored by God. Lucifer came to desire self-exaltation, saying... "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." 'I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation" and "I will be like the Most High."
Coveting the honor which the Father had bestowed upon His Son, the prince of angels desired the position which Christ held.
Pride in his own glory nourished the desire for supremacy. He gloried in his brightness and exaltation and aspired to be equal to with God. Angels delighted to execute his commands, and he was clothed with beauty and wisdom and glory above all the angels. Yet the Son of God was acknowledged as the Sovereign in heaven. one in power and in authority with the Father.
Lucifer spread his spirit of discontent among the angels. He represented to them that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ.
In dealing with evil God could employ only righteousness and truth. Lucifer could use that which God could not. He sought to misrepresent the government of God before the angels, claiming that God was not just in laying laws and rules upon the inhabitants of heaven, that in requiring submission and obedience from his creatures he was merely seeking the exaltation of Himself. Lucifer made it appear as though he himself was seeking to promote the good of the universe and that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will which would always guide them right. He denounced the government of God as a restriction of their liberty and that if freed from this restraint, the host of heaven might enter upon a higher, more glorious state of existence.
Thus a rebellion which sought to overthrow the government of God resulted in Lucifer along with one third of the angels being banished from heaven.
The same evil spirit that prompted rebellion in heaven, still inspires rebellion on earth.

 

[trase]

Evil originated in heaven. The war in heaven, that resulted in Lucifer along with one third of the fallen angels being cast out of heaven, is the earliest record of the existence of evil.
Evil is a "power" whose ranks consist of all that is in opposition with God.

Evil is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse be found, or cause be shown for it's existence, it would cease to be evil.

This is very UNSOUND theology !! Evil could NEVER originate in Heaven because Heaven is perfection and as such it can NOT contain evil. God could NEVER be evil because evil denotes error whereas God is perfection. Try again, please !!!



Cheers

 

[Nycky]

This is very UNSOUND theology !! Evil could NEVER originate in Heaven because Heaven is perfection and as such it can NOT contain evil. God could NEVER be evil because evil denotes error whereas God is perfection. Try again, please !!!

So, if not from God, form whence did evil come?

 

[waterbear]

If G-d did not create evil, where did it come from?

Nyc

Evil is the absence of good "Good" is the correct/moral choice/value, "evil" the incorrect/immoral choice/value.

 

[trase]

So, if not from God, form whence did evil come?

This question was already answered but it seems that you have a comprehension problem !!! Please study the answers as well as this post....

Jesus' last visit with Gadiah had to do with a discussion of good and evil. This young Philistine was much troubled by a feeling of injustice because of the presence of evil in the world alongside the good. He said: "How can God, if he is infinitely good, permit us to suffer the sorrows of evil; after all, who creates evil?" It was still believed by many in those days that God creates both good and evil, but Jesus never taught such error. In answering this question, Jesus said: "My brother, God is love; therefore he must be good, and his goodness is so great and real that it cannot contain the small and unreal things of evil. God is so positively good that there is absolutely no place in him for negative evil. Evil is the immature choosing and the unthinking misstep of those who are resistant to goodness, rejectful of beauty, and disloyal to truth. Evil is only the misadaptation of immaturity or the disruptive and distorting influence of ignorance. Evil is the inevitable darkness which follows upon the heels of the unwise rejection of light. Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin.


"Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest." Gadiah was fully satisfied with Jesus' answer to his question after their subsequent discussion had made clear to his mind the real meaning of these momentous statements.


( from The Urantia Book )

I hope this helps !!!



Cheers

 

[Nycky]

This question was already answered but it seems that you have a comprehension problem !!! Please study the answers as well as this post....

No, last I checked no comprehension problem. What people have done is talk around the answer, not give a direct response. I would like a yes or not along with a debateable premise for the answer.

Oops - I was mistaken. One person did answer definitively no.

God did not create evil. If He had, He would not be totally good.

The Christian belief is that a created spiritual being called Satan decided to set up his own reign. That entailed withdrawing from God as his source of life. That action thereby defines evil - anything that subtracts from the perfection of God.

Evil is always a corruption of what was once good. That is its lie. It offers, but has no substance to give true delight and satisfaction. This is why Christians endeavour to live by God's values.

Evil is rooted in a spiritual being - it is not an abstract concept. It has intent, energy, intelligence and incredible power. Its ultimate power is death, which was broken by the resurrection of Jesus, and will also be broken when we take part in God's new creation.

I, and infact, he disagrees with his own supposition when ties the existence of evil to the created creature, Satan.

Jesus' last visit with Gadiah had to do with a discussion of good and evil. This young Philistine was much troubled by a feeling of injustice because of the presence of evil in the world alongside the good. ...

"Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. ...( from The Urantia Book )

I am unfamiliar with the "Urantia Book." Is it like the book of Mormon, a supplement to the the Bible, or is it a non-canonical Bible story?

May I assume, from the large text of your quote, that you would answer that G-d did create evil?

Nyc

 

[Onesiphorus]

The Urantia Book was written by a Seventh-day Adventist minister and physician, Dr. William S. Sadler. It was "channeled" to him by "spirits" in the 1930's but wasn't published until 1955. It is not accepted as a doctrinal book by any mainstream Christian group (or any Christian group that I'm aware of). As a matter of fact, it mostly contradicts all major precepts of the Bible. It is a man-made, new age spiritual "work" that is easily dismissed.

-- I seek the Truth... nothing more.

 

[Sola Gratia]

We need to look at what the relationship is between God and Evil.

Who was it that placed the tree of Good and Evil into the garden? Who created that tree?

Who was it that told Satan to test job?

The truth is that God alows evil to exist for his purposes, but like all things it is subject to Him.
Evil (satan ) is a tool in the hand of God, it does not exist independant of Him, it is not equal to Him in ability or power.
It was asked
Neh 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
It is asked in Amos

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

 

[Nycky]

Who was it that placed the tree of Good and Evil into the garden? Who created that tree?

Thanks Sola, I had forgotten that the Genesis story details the placement of the tree of knowledge of "good and evil' in the garden. Clearly G-d caused Evil as well as Good to come into the world.

Nyc

 

[Buzz Dixon]

Who was it that placed the tree of Good and Evil into the garden? Who created that tree?

It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The tree's fruit contained no special properties. God could have selected any tree.

Adam and Eve acquired the knowledge of good and evil when they realized they had sinned against God.

If God had not told them the tree's fruit was forbidden, and they ate the fruit, they would not have sinned, and hence would have had no knowledge of good and evil.

The knowledge was a result of the deliberate act of defiance.

 

[Nycky]

It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The tree's fruit contained no special properties. God could have selected any tree.

We agree.

Adam and Eve acquired the knowledge of good and evil when they realized they had sinned against God.

The Bible said that they knew that they were naked. The new nothing of sin until confronted later by G-d.

If God had not told them the tree's fruit was forbidden, and they ate the fruit, they would not have sinned, and hence would have had no knowledge of good and evil.

The knowledge was a result of the deliberate act of defiance.

Likely true, but disobedience did not bring evil into the world. It was there. G-d said it was there. Eating the fruit simply allowed humankind an awareness of the presence of evil.

Nyc

 

[Buzz Dixon]

Don't turn this into another nudism thread, Nycky.

 

[StevenL]

Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and CREATE EVIL. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things

The word evil here is the same word as used in the "tree of knowledge of good and EVIL." And.."the children of Israel did EVIL in the sight of the Lord."

Pretty simple really when you "lean not to your own understanding."

 

[Buzz Dixon]

No, evil in that verse has no moral meaning. It is more like "bad" or "trouble" viz. Christ saying, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

New International: "I bring prosperity and create disaster."

Revised Standard: "I make weal and create woe."

There are other translations but it's late and I'm tired and I don't feel like doing the whole Dan Rather thing on this subject.

 

[Nycky]

No, evil in that verse has no moral meaning. It is more like "bad" or "trouble" viz. Christ saying, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

New International: "I bring prosperity and create disaster."

Revised Standard: "I make weal and create woe."


There are other translations but it's late and I'm tired and I don't feel like doing the whole Dan Rather thing on this subject.

"Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things." - Young's Literal Translation​

Calamity, Woe, Disaster - all sound like evil to me, certainly does not sound like good. Have you considered that some tranlators have an investment, like yourself, in believing that G-d did not ceate evil and would adjust word meaning to reflect this?

You must get very tired havng to correct all us heathens.

Nyc

 

[Buzz Dixon]

Language creep is a very real issue in dealing with translations. There's the problem of language creep in the original language, then language creep from the earliest translation to a more contemporary tongue.

Suffice it to say, there's ample evidence in the Bible that the word "evil" was used both in a moral sense (virtue vs vice) and in a morally neutral sense (postive vs negative events). It depends on the context, which is why Christ reminded us that even the devil cal use scripture for his own purposes.

And, yes, I do grow weary, but I commit myself to the task out of Christian love.

 

[StevenL]

I personally find it impossible to believe that God, in His infinite Wisdom, created something perfect, but then that someone came in and tripped Him up...surprised Him...and ever since poor God has been trying to right the wrong, rather unsuccessfully at that. It just got out of hand and there was really nothing He could do about it until the very end of the ages.? Then, unfortunately, He had to sacrifice His Son because the devil outwitted Him and messed up His plan.? Nah. Of course God created evil. He's the Creator. Is there another creator? He created ALL things after His own will and purpose. Colossians 1:16-17. Look at the word ALL. And He is the one Who subjected the creation to "futility" (EVIL) for His purpose. Romans 8:20. He created the "serpent" and put it there in the garden to do exactly what he did. But then maybe God is not omniscient after all? No I think He knew very well. Praise the Lord!