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From Whence Comes Evil?
- Thread starter Nycky
- Start date
Evil only exists as a POTENTIAL in this physical, time-space creation and it only becomes real after a person CHOOSES to will it into existance. This truth is self-evident because if we ALL decided to do good, evil would NOT exist but it would always be there as a potential. In order for this IMPERFECT, EVOLUTIONARY and EXPERIENTIAL universe to exist, an opposite of God's "good" qualities must exist, but these "bad" things, as a spiritual reality, are non-existant !!Nycky said:
Cheers
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I read something a while ago that said that, since it was patently absurd to presume that Jehovah was evil, it was apparent that evil is just human imagination and uncertainty run amok, which is why Satan and devils have power to do what you think they can, and not a lick more.
Just a thought I thought I'd present.
Just a thought I thought I'd present.
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By your reasoning, GOOD, also a potential entity waiting for humankind to WILL it into being in the world. And if we all decided to do evil, good would not exist in the world.trase said:
Literal believers do not believe that this creation or its G-d are imperfect, evolutionary and many would say that it is, likewise, not experiential.
I agree that in order to have good, we must have that which opposes it, evil, just as darkness without light is nothing.
My question was, to paraphrase, did G-d create evil? What I hear you say, in a round about way is yes; G-d was forced to create evil in order for there to be good.
Nyc
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I am not asking if G-d is evil. I am asking if G-d created evil.TrueQ said:
You mention Satan and the devils; who called these entities into being, if not G-d, creator of the universe and all within it, then whom?
Nyc
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brightlights
A sinner
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the chair that i am sitting in exists because there is an absense of this chair somewhere. light exists because of darkness. evil exists because of god. everything that is good is of god, made by god. everything that is evil is simply the absense of good. evil and good were not created, they simply are. just like god was not created. need i elaborate? it's a difficult subject, i know.
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What is evil? What is good? It's all relative, isn't it? Good and evil is created by humans, not a deity sitting up in the sky somewhere, or a little red devil running around with a pitchfork.
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First, can the sarcasm. It is rude and demeans you much more than it does me.brightlights said:
On to your argument.
I am almost 100% certain that G-d and chairs cannot be equated in this particular discussion. A chair is a fixed creation, while my chair may be another person's stool, or a termite's lunch, it has physical limitations and dementions that make it a chair, or a stool, for the person changing a light bulb, or lunch for the termite. It's "chairness" is fixed, even when used a stool or lunch. While your chair is with you, and not with me, the fact that you have a chair does not preclude me from also having a chair. In fact, I may choose to have a chair that is, as close as human beings can get, identical to your chair, posessing the exact same chairness that your does. Your poseesion of your chair in not has no relation to my lack of possession.
Evil, or good for that matter is not a fixed entity. Unlike the objective quality of "chairness,", evil possesses no objective being. It is a wholly subjective concept. There are few expressions of evil or good that we all can agree to label as such.
Are you saying that good and evil, like G-d have always been? If yes, are these qualities equal to G-d or perhaps even superior, as G-d has no control over them, to include their creation and how they are manifest in the world. G-d's power as Creator is limited by these two superior elements that are outside G-d.
One more thing, to contradict my earlier, hastily written words, without darkness, there may still be light. But without darkness we cannot appreciate it. Light is not potential, it is, some conditions may prevent us from seeing it but still it exists. Evil exists, perhaps we would not recognise it without the presence of good, but it exists, wholly and completely, as it own entity.
Nyc
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slayer-2004
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quick question - are anglicans not allowed to say god ? Sorry about this seemingly odd question .
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God did not create evil. If He had, He would not be totally good.
The Christian belief is that a created spiritual being called Satan decided to set up his own reign. That entailed withdrawing from God as his source of life. That action thereby defines evil - anything that subtracts from the perfection of God.
Evil is always a corruption of what was once good. That is its lie. It offers, but has no substance to give true delight and satisfaction. This is why Christians endeavour to live by God's values.
Evil is rooted in a spiritual being - it is not an abstract concept. It has intent, energy, intelligence and incredible power. Its ultimate power is death, which was broken by the resurrection of Jesus, and will also be broken when we take part in God's new creation.
This a very brief outline of a Christian position.
John
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The Christian belief is that a created spiritual being called Satan decided to set up his own reign. That entailed withdrawing from God as his source of life. That action thereby defines evil - anything that subtracts from the perfection of God.
Evil is always a corruption of what was once good. That is its lie. It offers, but has no substance to give true delight and satisfaction. This is why Christians endeavour to live by God's values.
Evil is rooted in a spiritual being - it is not an abstract concept. It has intent, energy, intelligence and incredible power. Its ultimate power is death, which was broken by the resurrection of Jesus, and will also be broken when we take part in God's new creation.
This a very brief outline of a Christian position.
John
NZ
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Serious answer re evil:
Evil is a failure to be in harmony with God.
Harmony with God is love, peace, and blessing.
Evil is the sacrificing that harmony for self-gratification.
Evil is a failure to be in harmony with God.
Harmony with God is love, peace, and blessing.
Evil is the sacrificing that harmony for self-gratification.
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By your reasoning, GOOD, also a potential entity waiting for humankind to WILL it into being in the world. And if we all decided to do evil, good would not exist in the world.Originally Posted by: trase
Evil only exists as a POTENTIAL in this physical, time-space creation and it only becomes real after a person CHOOSES to will it into existance. This truth is self-evident because if we ALL decided to do good, evil would NOT exist but it would always be there as a potential. In order for this IMPERFECT, EVOLUTIONARY and EXPERIENTIAL universe to exist, an opposite of God's "good" qualities must exist, but these "bad" things, as a spiritual reality, are non-existant !!
Literal believers do not believe that this creation or its G-d are imperfect, evolutionary and many would say that it is, likewise, not experiential.
I agree that in order to have good, we must have that which opposes it, evil, just as darkness without light is nothing.
My question was, to paraphrase, did G-d create evil? What I hear you say, in a round about way is yes; G-d was forced to create evil in order for there to be good.
Nyc
Goodness, Love, Mercy, Joy, Kindness etc are God's attributes and qualities, and as such they exist regardless of hate, evil, jealousy, meanness. God is ONLY good !!
I never said that God was imperfect !! This universe and creatures in it are created imperfect so that through error and experience they can ACHIEVE perfection. The claim that the universe is NOT evolutionary and experiential is so far out in the left field that I will not even address it.
Darkness does NOT really exist. Darkness is the absence of light but light is NOT the absence of darkness !! Light is the true spiritual quality while darkness is a "real illusion".
God did NOT create what we might term "evil". God created this evolutionary and experiential universe for us to be able to achieve perfection through experience. If a rock falls of a cliff we don't consider that evil. If you are standing below and you get killed by the falling rock we consider that evil. If a person grabs a rock and throws it off the cliff, knowing there are people below, and kills someone, that is considered a sin. If a person tries to kill people on purpose by throwing rocks off the cliff that is considered iniquity.It's all OUR CHOOSING.
Cheers
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So, in the Genesis story, wher G-d forms the earth in stages and calls it, G-d's creation "good," G-d was just kidding, not sure. You are suggesting that G-d created an imperfection. That does not seem to jive with a literal understanding.
G-d separated the light from the darkness. Clearly, both exist, seperate from each other.
Evil entered creation. It came from somewhere. If not from G-d, then from whom?
Nyc
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I am sorry somebody reported you on that statement. I took it as a joke.slayer-2004 said:
Anglicans can say, and spell, the G word.
Not spelling out the word is a Jewish tradition that I have adopted. Initially because I liked the concept of appreciating the majesty of the Divine, later because it worked for me in distilling the traditional Judeo-Christian conception of the Creator for my own increasingly esoteric views.
A part of both of those reasons still exist but I can be honest enough to admit that it has become a bit of an affectation, a stamp of my own individuality.
Nyc
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Evil originated in heaven. The war in heaven, that resulted in Lucifer along with one third of the fallen angels being cast out of heaven, is the earliest record of the existence of evil.Nycky said:
Evil is a "power" whose ranks consist of all that is in opposition with God.
Evil is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse be found, or cause be shown for it's existence, it would cease to be evil.
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arizona_sunshine
Well-Known Member
Nycky said:
This is just my own perception, and I may be wrong, but brightlights may not have been being sarcastic. In offering elaboration and declaring the subject 'difficult', I think they were being sincere.
As far as the insight offered by brightlights, it makes good sense to me and I would tend to agree.
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Did Satan rebel before or after the creation of Adam and Eve?repentandbelieve said:
Anybody have a specific Bible verse on this?
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