...from the blood of Abel...

[lifepsyop]

Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. - Luke 11:50-51


It is remarkable to me that Christians choose human philosophy over the testimony of Jesus. Here Jesus is straightforwardly connecting the well-known priests and prophets of Israel's history with the reality of Adam's son Abel at the beginning of the world in Genesis 4. Jesus is even making a promise of judgment for Abel's murder. It's very hard to argue here that Abel is only a symbolic literary figure and not a real flesh and blood son of Adam, for it would be absurd to promise judgment for something that only happened in a piece of literature. There are many examples of Jesus upholding the reality of Genesis, this is just one.

Why is it so hard for some Christians to give up their belief in the philosophy of science and just believe the Bible? Why is there such reverence for naturalistic theory of the history of the earth, but the Bible and Jesus himself can be so easily mistaken?

Why does the God of Israel have to be a myth, but the God of Nature and Evolution is a sacred unquestionable reality? Could Jesus say anything to these professing Christians that would change their minds?

I think it is the inevitable outcome of the Enlightenment and the modern world. Modernity was not even possible without a new civic religion that promoted human progress and discovery over the idea of a sacred revealed truth and all of God's authority that comes with it. The god of this new civic religious regime is the god of nature, or the deistic god of evolution, which replaces the God of Israel who Jesus embodied as a man.

Our modern civilization was forged out of a turning away from Revelation and turning towards a civic deism. A pluralistic god that held no specific judgment or command or intimacy over mankind. To believe in the God who put a curse over creation and flooded the entire earth in judgment, is to render all of man's pursuits of progress laughable. Modern civilization simply cannot tolerate such an intimately involved God. This is why we believe in Evolution and justify it by repeating the mantra of 'science'... We have to in order to maintain the ideological cornerstone of our modern civilization.

We are now seeing the eventual outcomes of abandoning the sacred truth of the Gospel and living under the 'unknown god' of civil religion. A simultaneous rejection of reality (such as the existence of men and women) and increased devotion to the civil religion of the regime and its high priests like Anthony Fauci or Francis Collins who installed the new moral imperative of scapegoating any who do not follow 'the science'. We are witnessing the fulfillment of the 'age of reason' and the project of modernity, and have returned to the Days of Noah that Jesus referenced, that so many would like to believe is a myth.

The Apostle Peter has a lot to say about this.

 

[royal priest]

The Apostle Peter has a lot to say about this.

I was reminded of what Paul said in Romans 1:18-32
"the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.


And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

 

[DiscipleOfChrist85]

You seem to understand little about evolution. First of all I did not trade the "God of science" with the God of Abraham they are the same thing. Secondly I do not believe in science only evidence and I realize that science lines up with the bible but it is not necessary for my salvation but I follow the natural evidence because it has been verified countless times and it does not contradict the bible or it's message it supports the claims in the bible.
All of the points you made are strawman and nothing more.

 

[DiscipleOfChrist85]

Science is a tool that allows us to observe and gain a new understanding of Gods creation.

 

[coffee4u]

You seem to understand little about evolution. First of all I did not trade the "God of science" with the God of Abraham they are the same thing. Secondly I do not believe in science only evidence and I realize that science lines up with the bible but it is not necessary for my salvation but I follow the natural evidence because it has been verified countless times and it does not contradict the bible or it's message it supports the claims in the bible.
All of the points you made are strawman and nothing more.

In your attempt to refute you yourself built a straw man.

Nothing about evolution has or can be verified since nobody was there to witness it. When someone claims evidence all they have is a story woven around a set of facts. The fossil is a fact, the claim that it came about because it descended from a list of creatures is not, its a story, an assumption.

Evolution contradicts the Bible in every way possible but mostly because sin brought about death. Meanwhile evolution has death simply as a natural part of life for millions of years.

 

[coffee4u]

Science is a tool that allows us to observe and gain a new understanding of Gods creation.

You can't observe God's creation, it changed completely at the fall and then it was wiped clean and changed again at the flood. All we have to look and study now is a corrupted groaning reshaped world. It will remain that way until the second coming of Christ when once more God will wipe it clean but this time with fire rather than water.

Romans 8:22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

2 Peter 3
6 Long ago the earth was covered with water and it was destroyed. 7 But the heaven we see now and the earth we live on now have been kept by His word. They will be kept until they are to be destroyed by fire. They will be kept until the day men stand before God and sinners will be destroyed.

Science only has this groaning world to observe and it shows us nothing except how it is now, how things act and react now.
It's extreme arrogance to think we can test the world as it is now and make claims about its creation.
Job 38:4-7

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Evolution contradicts the Bible in every way possible but mostly because sin brought about death. Meanwhile evolution has death simply as a natural part of life for millions of years.

Sin brought death into the world but sin didn't change creation from being everlasting to the futility of death and decay. God created a universe subject to death and decay to reveal the dignity of human life.

 

[coffee4u]

Sin brought death into the world but sin didn't change creation from being everlasting to the futility of death and decay. God created a universe subject to death and decay to reveal the dignity of human life.

There was no death until man sinned. Death is directly linked to sin and only to sin.
Which is why after the great white throne judgment death will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed forever. God will remake the world and once again there will be no more death on the world.

Death is Gods enemy. God did not use his enemy in any way to help shape his creation. Nor would he have looked out at something shaped by his enemy and called it "very good". Death is an interloper into a perfect immortal creation.
Because of Adams sin, and only because of it do we die and return to dust.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

 

[Eloy Craft]

There was no death until man sinned. Death is directly linked to sin and only to sin.

Take a look at this. God bound creation to a life of futility decay,. Meaning , God made the universe entropic. Death and decay have been happening since the beginning.

'Our' world didn't include death and decay.. not until sin.
Paul is articulating those things. God did this so that mankind when his earthly life ends, prepared for a higher state of life would lift all creation.up with him to enjoy the freedom of incorrupt life in Glory united to God in heaven. God was hoping to show us off to all creation as it's steward and savior.
Please critique.

Romans 8

the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 W

 

[Eloy Craft]

There was no death until man sinned. Death is directly linked to sin and only to sin.

Take a look at this. God bound creation to a life of futility decay,. Meaning , God made the universe entropic. Death and decay have been happening since the beginning.

'Our' world didn't include death and decay.. not until sin.
Paul is articulating those things. God did this so that mankind when his earthly life ends, prepared for a higher state of life would lift all creation.up with him to enjoy the freedom of incorrupt life in Glory united to God in heaven. God was hoping to show us off to all creation as it's steward and savior.
Please critique.

Romans 8

the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 W

 

[stevevw]

Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. - Luke 11:50-51


It is remarkable to me that Christians choose human philosophy over the testimony of Jesus. Here Jesus is straightforwardly connecting the well-known priests and prophets of Israel's history with the reality of Adam's son Abel at the beginning of the world in Genesis 4. Jesus is even making a promise of judgment for Abel's murder. It's very hard to argue here that Abel is only a symbolic literary figure and not a real flesh and blood son of Adam, for it would be absurd to promise judgment for something that only happened in a piece of literature. There are many examples of Jesus upholding the reality of Genesis, this is just one.

Why is it so hard for some Christians to give up their belief in the philosophy of science and just believe the Bible? Why is there such reverence for naturalistic theory of the history of the earth, but the Bible and Jesus himself can be so easily mistaken?

Why does the God of Israel have to be a myth, but the God of Nature and Evolution is a sacred unquestionable reality? Could Jesus say anything to these professing Christians that would change their minds?

I think it is the inevitable outcome of the Enlightenment and the modern world. Modernity was not even possible without a new civic religion that promoted human progress and discovery over the idea of a sacred revealed truth and all of God's authority that comes with it. The god of this new civic religious regime is the god of nature, or the deistic god of evolution, which replaces the God of Israel who Jesus embodied as a man.

Our modern civilization was forged out of a turning away from Revelation and turning towards a civic deism. A pluralistic god that held no specific judgment or command or intimacy over mankind. To believe in the God who put a curse over creation and flooded the entire earth in judgment, is to render all of man's pursuits of progress laughable. Modern civilization simply cannot tolerate such an intimately involved God. This is why we believe in Evolution and justify it by repeating the mantra of 'science'... We have to in order to maintain the ideological cornerstone of our modern civilization.

We are now seeing the eventual outcomes of abandoning the sacred truth of the Gospel and living under the 'unknown god' of civil religion. A simultaneous rejection of reality (such as the existence of men and women) and increased devotion to the civil religion of the regime and its high priests like Anthony Fauci or Francis Collins who installed the new moral imperative of scapegoating any who do not follow 'the science'. We are witnessing the fulfillment of the 'age of reason' and the project of modernity, and have returned to the Days of Noah that Jesus referenced, that so many would like to believe is a myth.

The Apostle Peter has a lot to say about this.

I think its the day of unreasoning. There is no truths in Postmodern society only self truth, experiential truth and relative truth. Even the science is being disputed over self truth. Truth is what you make it now and that's just a matter of making noise on social media and calling everything fake news except for the truth that is created which serves self and the identity group.

The word of God cuts like a knife and stands alone. People know this and that's why they get angry and upset when it is revealed and want to shout down any opposing views. The Bible is being ridiculed and undermined as being rigid and outdated and even oppressive and bigoted. Everything that represents a block to people being able to do what they desire to do is being condemned as oppressive.

Once this starts there's no discernment and all authority is challenged. The good are made to look bad and the bad are made to look good. The truth is turned into a lie and the lies becomes the new truths. Everything anti to God and his truth.

 

[TedT]

There was no death until man sinned. Death is directly linked to sin and only to sin.

Why pretend that Adam, not Satan, was the first to sin?

I agree death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life.

Death is Gods enemy.

Death is GOD's tool used as a precursor to hell as part of HIS plan for our lives which is the redemption and sanctification of HIS sinful elect.

Nor would he have looked out at something shaped by his enemy and called it "very good".

Since the serpent was already a full sinner, good cannot have had a moral connotation of righteousness but must have meant something like "And HE saw that all HE had made was good for HIS purpose, the redemption of HIS sinful elect, the damnation of HIS eternal enemies and His marriage to HIS sanctified Bride.

 

[DamianWarS]

It's very hard to argue here that Abel is only a symbolic literary figure and not a real flesh and blood son of Adam, for it would be absurd to promise judgment for something that only happened in a piece of literature.

Western cultures are very fact-driven where truth and fact are synonymous and are the pinnacles of society. What did young Washington say? "I Can Not Tell a Lie: I Cut the Tree" and it is accounts like these that cement values like honesty as the highest above all else. We will even remark "I don't care what the truth is, I just want to know it" so truth is defined as facts and is very important to us no matter what that truth is.

In Eastern cultures, even to this day, it may surprise you to learn that honesty and fact-driven accounts are not the highest values but rather they are honor-driven where honor is the highest value and truth may be defined through this honor. They are goal-driven in this sense and you're going to want to support that goal the best way possible simply because it's worthy even if it's not factual and this is considered a higher truth than mere facts alone can produce. Eastern cultures will look at the west and remark on how dishonorable they are like how horrible they treat their elders and families. Westerners will look at the east and remark on how deceitful they are hiding under "saving face" but what we interpret as cowardice and lying. Everyone is a mixture of both but broadly speaking the west looks to facts as their measure of truth and the east looks to honor as their measure of truth. Both have their issues but both also have their merits.

Be that as it may, ancient cultures are more honor-driven than fact-driven and the Hebrews were certainly a more honor-driven culture. Biblical accounts are very much honor-driven where details of an account can be more fluid and are there to support the goal of the account but not there necessarily as factual claims. This remark Jesus says is definitely honor-driven, in this case about shame. He is not making a statement of fact, he is making a statement to give shame.

As a western and fact-driven culture, it is easy for us to superimpose our way of understanding over an honor-driven account. So we read what Jesus says and conclude that he is making factual claims in his details that build the goal when that's actually not the point. Jesus is calling out and putting shame on "this generation" and that is the point of his remark. The details he uses are there to support this goal, they are not there to lay a factual claim to the levels you are suggesting.

Jesus's remark neither affirms nor rejects Abel as a factual person or affirms the accounts of him in Genesis as literal but that's not the point (neither should it be yours) He uses Abel as a cultural/religious reference and or authority that has deep meaning to emphasize the shame (which is the goal).

Americans ironically are no different (we are still a mix of both) because although that account of young Washington has further cemented honesty and facts as the highest values the irony is that Washington never said that and the whole account is fabricated. But it doesn't matter, because the point of the account was not to lay claim to a factual event of Washington as a child but rather to show that Washington was a very honest man, the account was there so you would believe it more (psst... that's an honor driven motivation).

So go back to what Jesus said and what is his point? is it to lay claim to facts, or to hand out shame? Because it's only one.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Why pretend that Adam, not Satan, was the first to sin?

No pretending. Scripture.
Adam was in Paradise, God's garden planted eastward in Mount Eden, which Mount Eden is in the third heaven. Paul went there and Scripture states it is in the third heaven. There was no sin and Adam was the son of God who was cast down and out of the Garden so that he could not eat of the tree of life there and live forever in a defiled garment of flesh no longer holy, to bear the glory. We are all Adam as to our kind and died as sons of God in the loins of our father Adam, that day.
Satan was created to tempt, test and try the Holy Watcher angels and the holy Adam creation. Satan is an evil spirit and was never holy, and is the created Prince Of Darkness. The Lake of Fire was made for him and his host of evil spirits -evil angels. When Satan and his host/army of evil angels are shut up in the lake of fire forever, at the end of earth's 7th Millinnium, when the 8th Day begins the new creation, then he never gets out of there, forever, and all the fallen, once holy, angels and all the demons (their disembodied offspring got by fornication with daughters of Adam) and all the souls born in Adam who never repented and believed the Word of God are the food for the evil spirits called satans, forever; for they are spirits with no bodies, and their food and drink forever, is to torture and torment those who believed and acted upon their lies.
Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam, was given this information from a visit with God the Great Glory, in heaven, to write.

 

[TedT]

No pretending. Scripture.

Scripture tells me that the serpent, already sinfully cunning in evil, entered the garden to beguile Eve and she ate first making Adam the third to sin in the garden. It is eisegetic theo-babble that tries to explain how he sinned first when he did not...and all because of the rejection of his being a sinner when he was sown into, not created in the garden: Matt 13:36-39.