From Darwin to Hitler

jamesrwright3 · Sep 19, 2006

]What I find strange is that every Christian thinks they have the right to judge whether any other person who says they are a Christian is TRULY a christian. And they also all have different reasonings as to what makes someone a TRUE Christian.

I am sorry to break this to you, but there is agreement between the major denominations of Christianity as to what constitutes a Christian..there may be minor differences, but there are some core characteristics

Regardless, no one could look at the Bible with a straight face and say Hitler was a Christian by any stretch of the imagination

And the Third Reich was steeped in the occult. A Christian can't be both

I am committing no fallacy. Just pointing out the fact that Hitler was as far from a Christian as a Christian could get.

combatant · Sep 19, 2006

Only if bigger, smarter, and more complex are advantages in the given environment. Evolution is not prescriptive, it is descriptive.

What do you percieve to be better, a human mind capable of sending machines to mars and walking on the moon, or a simple bacterium swimming aound in some filthy water? Any logical thinking human understands that humans are "better" than all animals. I'm sorry your animalistic mind can't understand that.

Abongil · Sep 19, 2006

combatant said:
What do you percieve to be better, a human mind capable of sending machines to mars and walking on the moon, or a simple bacterium swimming aound in some filthy water? Any logical thinking human understands that humans are "better" than all animals. I'm sorry your animalistic mind can't understand that.
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Neither is better, because that bacterium could get into your body, that single bacteria, and end your life. Seems like quite the powerful little organism to me.

Split Rock · Sep 19, 2006

jamesrwright3 said:
Hitler was NOT a Christian. That is a fallacy.

By the same argument Hitler was not an evolutionist.

jamesrwright3 · Sep 19, 2006

Split Rock said:
By the same argument Hitler was not an evolutionist.

I don't really care if he was or he wasn't

fromdownunder · Sep 19, 2006

Since as far as I know, nobody on this thread has yet raised the "Hitler was a vegetarian" and "Hitler was a painter" bit yet, so I might as well do it now. Based on this, there must be an inherant evil in being a vegetarian painter.

I'm sorry, but from both sides, the Hitler was... (pick your own subject) is a totally useless argument.

Norm

Lord_Marx · Sep 19, 2006

Hitler was a power hungry tyrant who would twist any ideology he could get his hands on to his advantage (evolution, Christianity, paganism), let's leave it at that.

Nooj · Sep 19, 2006

combatant said:
What do you percieve to be better, a human mind capable of sending machines to mars and walking on the moon, or a simple bacterium swimming aound in some filthy water? Any logical thinking human understands that humans are "better" than all animals. I'm sorry your animalistic mind can't understand that.
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Better in what context?

Bacteria fill almost any imagineable environmental niche. Can you survive in boiling water? How about the freezing cold?

Tenka · Sep 19, 2006

I think it is quite ignorant to think that the theory of evolution does not logically indicate a "progression" of evolution.The theory says that bigger, smarter, more complex creatures arise out of creatures with less advantages and less complexity.

In a given environment the creatures most able to survive will have to most chances to reproduce and pass on the genetic material that gave them the advantages to survive.
If this leads to wings, gills, armor, big or small so be it. Some of the most successful creatures on the planet are primitive, less complex and less 'smart' creatures than primates.

Any logical thinking human understands that humans are "better" than all animals.

Any human actually using said logic would know that it depends on the environment they are in, but you are free to demeonstrate your 'betterness' in a rattler den or shark infested reef.

Dannager · Sep 19, 2006

combatant said:
What do you percieve to be better, a human mind capable of sending machines to mars and walking on the moon, or a simple bacterium swimming aound in some filthy water? Any logical thinking human understands that humans are "better" than all animals. I'm sorry your animalistic mind can't understand that.

Not only is that a terrible argument, but insulting someone by saying they have an "animalistic mind" while at the same time showing little to no actual understanding of the topic is more than mildly hypocritical. Bacterium outnumber us by many orders of magnitude and are capable of surviving in a wider range of environments than we are.

The short of it is, in the scope of the biological world, being able to send a man to the moon isn't really worth much.

Chalnoth · Sep 19, 2006

Dannager said:
The short of it is, in the scope of the biological world, being able to send a man to the moon isn't really worth much.

True. But being able to send a man to another solar system is worth much, much more: it is the only way to ensure survival of the species. The Earth will not last forever, and while bacteria can survive where we wouldn't (say, from a large asteroid impact), the Earth will eventually encounter a catastrophe which no life can survive (which will likely happen when our sun goes red giant).

So sending a man to the moon, though a small step, is a good first step.

tocis · Sep 19, 2006

HamletsChoice said:
Well written scholarly work!

1. Hitler was a creationist. At least kind of. Read "Mein Kampf" and you'll find that he thought his beloved "Aryans" were Divinely created and thus superior to other "races" that he considered evolved.
2. Even if the ******* had been "an evolutionist", the millions of people executing his orders (and the victims...) were christians. Go figure.

Split Rock · Sep 19, 2006

Split Rock said:
By the same argument Hitler was not an evolutionist.

jamesrwright3 said:
I don't really care if he was or he wasn't

That's fine, I was just pointing that out, since the O.P. was promoting the idea that he was.

Loudmouth · Sep 19, 2006

combatant said:
What do you percieve to be better, a human mind capable of sending machines to mars and walking on the moon, or a simple bacterium swimming aound in some filthy water?

You assume that human preference is the goal of evolution. From an objective point of view, bacteria are by far the best adapted group of organisms on the planet. They exist in every niche available, many of which are unavailable to any vertebrate. In fact, if you counted all of the cells from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head bacterial cells would outnumber your own at a ratio of a 1000 to 1.

Any logical thinking human understands that humans are "better" than all animals.

What makes humans better? We can't swim as well as dolphins, run as fast as cheetahs, breed as fast as rabbits, or dig as fast as prairie dogs. We can't fly either, so bats must be better. As humans we subjectively prefer intelligence, but there is no objective reason why intelligence is "better" than any other physical attribute.

I'm sorry your animalistic mind can't understand that.

We are animals. If you are comprised of multiple cells and ingest nutrients then you are an animal.

Gus2009 · Sep 19, 2006

Biologist said:
It's a little known fact, but equation E=mc^2 is responcible for building and launching nuclear weapons.

The fact is quite well known actually, or at least it should be. It helps explain where some of the lost mass in a nuclear reaction goes. And to be honest, the equation probably has very little to do with the actual construction of the weapon and even less to do with its delivery system. Im splitting hairs though and it has nothing to do with topic at hand, sorry.

Abongil · Sep 19, 2006

Chalnoth said:
the Earth will eventually encounter a catastrophe which no life can survive (which will likely happen when our sun goes red giant).

.

Even then, I am fairly certain that the earth will be pushed out into a higher orbit (probably between where mars and the asteroid belt is now.) and even then bacteria could still survive somehow. I thinkt he only time that the earth will be completely dead is when the sun dwarfs and stops emitting heat and light.

Chalnoth · Sep 19, 2006

Abongil said:
Even then, I am fairly certain that the earth will be pushed out into a higher orbit (probably between where mars and the asteroid belt is now.) and even then bacteria could still survive somehow. I thinkt he only time that the earth will be completely dead is when the sun dwarfs and stops emitting heat and light.

Perhaps, but I'm not sure our atmosphere will last through that transition, and without an atmosphere, the oceans will boil off before long. I haven't seen the calculations, though, this is more just intuition on my part.

Wiccan_Child · Oct 2, 2006

jamesrwright3 said:
I am sorry to break this to you, but there is agreement between the major denominations of Christianity as to what constitutes a Christian..there may be minor differences, but there are some core characteristics

And what, pray, would they be? True, Hitler instigated the xenophobic murder of millions. But it was for the good of mankind.
Isn't that what God did, during the Flood, during the sacking of Sodom and Gomorrah (and the other two, I forget), during Jesus' destruction of the Temple, during said Jesus' crucifixtion? Impressive lists of Biblical atrocities aside, God kills men for the embetterment of mankind. Was Hitler not doing God's work, as he saw it?

Regardless, no one could look at the Bible with a straight face and say Hitler was a Christian by any stretch of the imagination

I can. Look at my straight face. Very straight (oh bless the irony of my orientation).
Regardless, noone could look at the Bible with a straight face and say you, or the Pope, or Martin Luther, were/are a Christian by any stretch of the imagination.

And the Third Reich was steeped in the occult. A Christian can't be both

The Occult deals with hidden knowledge (just look at its etymology). Moses uses hidden knowledge when he freed the Jews (?) from Egypt. You appeal for change by unknown methods whenever you pray. Life is created, and death enacted, by unknown means (soul-wise).
Using the popular, if inaccurate, usage of the word 'Occult', the Third Reich was indeed 'steeped' in it. However, you can still be a Christian, just not a very good Christian.

I am committing no fallacy. Just pointing out the fact that Hitler was as far from a Christian as a Christian could get.

So he WAS a Christian then??

combatant said:
What do you percieve to be better, a human mind capable of sending machines to mars and walking on the moon, or a simple bacterium swimming aound in some filthy water? Any logical thinking human understands that humans are "better" than all animals. I'm sorry your animalistic mind can't understand that.

Not only is that analogy putting bacterial locomotion as 'better' than interstellar travel (by any logic), you appeal to the qualitative: calling the water 'filthy', or the bacterium 'simple' is both fallicious and inaccurate. The moon is simple, when compared to all the other facets of your argument: it is simply a giant ball of rock hanging in space. Big whoop.

rmwilliamsll · Oct 2, 2006

jamesrwright3 said:
I am sorry to break this to you, but there is agreement between the major denominations of Christianity as to what constitutes a Christian..there may be minor differences, but there are some core characteristics

Regardless, no one could look at the Bible with a straight face and say Hitler was a Christian by any stretch of the imagination

And the Third Reich was steeped in the occult. A Christian can't be both

I am committing no fallacy. Just pointing out the fact that Hitler was as far from a Christian as a Christian could get.

go to apologetics or christian philosophy forums.
start a thread with this:
I am sorry to break this to you, but there is agreement between the major denominations of Christianity as to what constitutes a Christian..there may be minor differences, but there are some core characteristics

pm me the thread

after decades at this debate. i have yet to see this "core characteristics" list emerge or even be able to define exactly who is allowed to post their lists of essential doctrines. if it lists something simple like "Jesus is Christ" then everyone argues over the meanings of the words.

afaik, there is no such core list possible, but maybe you have the list, you really ought to post it so we all can understand these things and stop fighting over them.

it is a good idea.
so i did it.
http://www.christianforums.com/t3839374-is-there-a-core-of-essential-beliefs.html

shernren · Oct 2, 2006

Abongil said:
Even then, I am fairly certain that the earth will be pushed out into a higher orbit (probably between where mars and the asteroid belt is now.) and even then bacteria could still survive somehow. I thinkt he only time that the earth will be completely dead is when the sun dwarfs and stops emitting heat and light.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if right now there are bacteria on the moon surviving on the miserly scraps man forgot to clean up after. Just a sideline.

Main point:

Hitler was a vegetarian, do you know that? Beware the doctrine of social vegetarianism, it is only a short step from shunning meat to slaying Jews.

From Darwin to Hitler

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