From a Christian and logical perpsective on homosexuality.

[BAFRIEND]

We all know that a lot, if not the majority of translations of the Bible in Corinthians 6:9 there is strong wording about homosexuals and the sexually immoral.

There are a lot of claims from people that God made people homosexual and that it is acceptable to the Christian community.

So, for debate from a Christian perspective I would like to say state a couple things:

We all know that lying is a sin and kleptomania is a disorder and yet no one I have heard of yet claims God condones either or is the source of the evil/disorder.

God created man and woman. If his design was for homosexuality, don't you think he would have just created only one sex ?

All reference to marriage in the Bible is man and woman and Jesus makes clear the legal status of such in his discussions on divorce.

 

[Lord_Barthok_Soc]

We all know that a lot, if not the majority of translations of the Bible in Corinthians 6:9 there is strong wording about homosexuals and the sexually immoral.

There are a lot of claims from people that God made people homosexual and that it is acceptable to the Christian community.

So, for debate from a Christian perspective I would like to say state a couple things:

We all know that lying is a sin and kleptomania is a disorder and yet no one I have heard of yet claims God condones either or is the source of the evil/disorder.

God created man and woman. If his design was for homosexuality, don't you think he would have just created only one sex ?

All reference to marriage in the Bible is man and woman and Jesus makes clear the legal status of such in his discussions on divorce.

I realise that I am probably beating my skull against a brick wall, but here goes:


You assume from your Christian perspective, through your interpretation of your translation that Cor6:9 condemns homosexuality. A lot of people/churches would wholeheartedly agree with you. I used to be among those. A lot would also disagree, and no amount of quoting or translating this verse is going to convince either side they are wrong, only that they are right. So stop trying. Accept that for some people this isn't enough and look at Jesus' other teachings for an answer that draws from a broader knowledge of Christ and Christianity.


There is no correlation between kleptomania and homosexuality. Trying to draw one is insulting to people. And I've heard lots of people condone lying: never heard of a "white lie"?

And if God had only created one sex, what would all the heterosexual people do?

Probably finally understand how homosexual people feel.


You cannot say "Jesus only mentioned husband and wife" as a valid argument. He also only mentions males when he's talking about many things, but it's clear both sexes are included.Indeed, many modern translations include "brothers and sisters" instead of the original "brothers". It's both a lingual and a cultural matter, not a hidden inference.

 

[BAFRIEND]

You assume from your Christian perspective, through your interpretation of your translation that Cor6:9 condemns homosexuality.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders … (1Cor 6:9)

Please enlighten me on how my interpretation and perspective of this translation is personally subjective in that it is condemning.

From a theological perspective, I hold that homosexuality is an objective moral disorder and the oldest Christian denomination and Judaism both hold that view and have never swayed. I never stated there was a correlation between kleptomania and homosexuality other than to use it as an example in the point and question I was asking. It is my view that both are objective moral disorders.

As for other examples of teachings from the Bible- adultery and fornication I believe both seal the fact that within Christianity, homosexual sex is a sin.

 

[BigBadWlf]

We all know that a lot, if not the majority of translations of the Bible in Corinthians 6:9 there is strong wording about homosexuals and the sexually immoral.

And we also know that the translation of the Greek word arsenokoites to mean homosexual is foundationless

There are a lot of claims from people that God made people homosexual and that it is acceptable to the Christian community.

Incorrect. Honest people realize that no one chooses their sexual oriention. The only choices made are to bow to prejudice and live a life of self-hatred and denial or to find God and happiness and live a life of honestly

So, for debate from a Christian perspective I would like to say state a couple things:

We all know that lying is a sin and kleptomania is a disorder and yet no one I have heard of yet claims God condones either or is the source of the evil/disorder.

So you admit that lies told about homosexuals such as lies about child sexual abuse or life expectancy or diseases are sins and the Christians telling these lies should be brought to task and the truth must be made available.

God created man and woman. If his design was for homosexuality, don't you think he would have just created only one sex ?

A really bad argument…not even sure it qualifies as an argument at all…we can see how faulty an argument this is when it is rephrased for race rather than for sexual oriention: God created the various races. If his design was for racial equality, don't you think he would have just created only one race?

All reference to marriage in the Bible is man and woman and Jesus makes clear the legal status of such in his discussions on divorce.

Usually in multiple numbers…specifically polygamy.


In the title of this thread you implied that the discussion would be both Christian and logical…You have provided neither.

 

[QuakerOats]

We all know that lying is a sin and kleptomania is a disorder and yet no one I have heard of yet claims God condones either or is the source of the evil/disorder.

BAFRIEND, the hole in this argument is obvious: kleptomania, and lying both harm, and harm those other than the klepto, or the liar in question. Homosexuality, on the other hand, does not [from a logical, provable perspective]. If God is not logical in what he designates as 'sin,' then you may well be right, but I respectfully disagree with that stance [on his nature].

God created man and woman. If his design was for homosexuality, don't you think he would have just created only one sex ?

That's a straw man.

All reference to marriage in the Bible is man and woman and Jesus makes clear the legal status of such in his discussions on divorce.

Yes, but it was the cultural 'norm,' so addressing the issue from that standpoint is to be expected, and thus, in my opinion, there's nothing extraordinary, or 'telling' about it.

 

[catlover]

We all know that a lot, if not the majority of translations of the Bible in Corinthians 6:9 there is strong wording about homosexuals and the sexually immoral.

There are a lot of claims from people that God made people homosexual and that it is acceptable to the Christian community.

So, for debate from a Christian perspective I would like to say state a couple things:

We all know that lying is a sin and kleptomania is a disorder and yet no one I have heard of yet claims God condones either or is the source of the evil/disorder.

God created man and woman. If his design was for homosexuality, don't you think he would have just created only one sex ?

All reference to marriage in the Bible is man and woman and Jesus makes clear the legal status of such in his discussions on divorce.

There are references in The Bible to polygamy...why are we on this one man one woman kick when Solomon had many, many, wives and concubines?

Furthermore, Kleptomania is a mental disorder so how can it be a sin?

 

[Ohioprof]

Please enlighten me on how my interpretation and perspective of this translation is personally subjective in that it is condemning.

From a theological perspective, I hold that homosexuality is an objective moral disorder and the oldest Christian denomination and Judaism both hold that view and have never swayed. I never stated there was a correlation between kleptomania and homosexuality other than to use it as an example in the point and question I was asking. It is my view that both are objective moral disorders.

As for other examples of teachings from the Bible- adultery and fornication I believe both seal the fact that within Christianity, homosexual sex is a sin.

Intimacy with one's spouse is not an objective moral disorder. It's an expression of love and commitment. The Bible says nothing at all about same-sex marriage being a sin. The Bible is silent on this question. You are reading your beliefs about gay people into the Bible.

 

[Criada]

Perhaps homosexuality was not part of God's original plan.
Neither was sickness.. but I don't see you castigating the disabled for being outside God's plan.
Whatever the reasons, some people are born homosexual, and blaming them for something which, right or wrong, is not something they have chosen, or are able to alter, seems to directly go against the second of the two great commandments...

 

[BAFRIEND]

A really bad argument…not even sure it qualifies as an argument at all…we can see how faulty an argument this is when it is rephrased for race rather than for sexual oriention: God created the various races. If his design was for racial equality, don't you think he would have just created only one race?

God created different races and that was part of his plan and all you have to do is look around you and see African Americans, Asians, Hispanics, and Whites.

I can't tell who the homosexual is until they confess it.

some people are born homosexual, and blaming them for something which, right or wrong, is not something they have chosen, or are able to alter, seems to directly go against the second of the two great commandments...

I never have blamed anyone for being a homosexual, far from it. What I have always stated is that my debate here is to argue against the promotion that the gay lifestyle is not a sin and acceptable within the institution of Christianity.

 

[BigBadWlf]

God created different races and that was part of his plan and all you have to do is look around you and see African Americans, Asians, Hispanics, and Whites.

Just as God created different sexual orientations

I can't tell who the homosexual is until they confess it.

So what?

I never have blamed anyone for being a homosexual, far from it. What I have always stated is that my debate here is to argue against the promotion that the gay lifestyle is not a sin and acceptable within the institution of Christianity.

Is this “gay lifestyle” anything like black lifestyle?

 

[BAFRIEND]

Is this “gay lifestyle” anything like black lifestyle?

No.

You see the Bible explicity states that homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom. That means that homosexuality is an objective moral disorder decreed by God the Creator.

No such comment is made against a particular race that I am aware of.

So what?

So the point is that this group is not entitled to special protection under the law for discrimination.

Just as God created different sexual orientations

Biology, social depravation, psychology, choice- but God does not create homosexual orientation, just as he does not create birth defects nor cancer.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Intimacy with one's spouse is not an objective moral disorder. It's an expression of love and commitment. The Bible says nothing at all about same-sex marriage being a sin. The Bible is silent on this question. You are reading your beliefs about gay people into the Bible.

the Bible only speaks of marriage in context between a man and a woman, time after time. No such relationship exists nor is even mentioned in the Bible although scores of marriages between man and woman are present.

Jesus speaks while teaching about divorce of the religous legality of marriage- meaning it is a sacrament, and speaking of marriage only between a man and a woman.

You can be intimate and caring torwards another and by Biblical definition still be guilty of adultery and fornication. When we hold our feelings to be equal or above God's law, we become guilty of sin through relativism and commit blaspheme. A person can live their life as subjectively as they wish, God's law and judgement is objective.

 

[LunarPlexus]

Biology, social depravation, psychology, choice- but God does not create homosexual orientation, just as he does not create birth defects nor cancer.

If God created everything and has dominion over everything then he created everything by proxy.

 

[Chaplain David]

I realise that I am probably beating my skull against a brick wall, but here goes:


You assume from your Christian perspective, through your interpretation of your translation that Cor6:9 condemns homosexuality....

I have asked this question before to others but received no reply. What Bible translation do you use? I am very much interested in seeing one that accepts the behavior of homosexuality as non-sinful.

Anyone please answer. In debate some negate the sinful nature of the behavior of homosexuality stating that our bibles, (NIV, NASB, NKJV, etc.) are translated incorrectly.

So what bibles do you use that states otherwise?

Think I just repeated myself. Well it's early and I worked until midnight.

God bless.

 

[OllieFranz]

No.

You see the Bible explicity states that homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom. That means that homosexuality is an objective moral disorder decreed by God the Creator.

No such comment is made against a particular race that I am aware of.

[BIBLE]Genesis 9:25[/BIBLE]

For most of the last four centuries, there were people just as adamant that this verse, and others that mentioned various Hamitic nations condemned the entire Black race, and justified slavery and, later, Jim Crow.

We now agree that a certain prejudice was read into these verses, and that we do not condemn people just because they were born with a different color skin. Why is it so hard for you to admit even the possibility that there might be a similar prejudice read into the anti-gay "clobber verses" and that it might be unfair to condemn a people just because they were born with a different orientation?

 

[Ohioprof]

No.

You see the Bible explicity states that homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom. That means that homosexuality is an objective moral disorder decreed by God the Creator.

No such comment is made against a particular race that I am aware of.



So the point is that this group is not entitled to special protection under the law for discrimination.



Biology, social depravation, psychology, choice- but God does not create homosexual orientation, just as he does not create birth defects nor cancer.

There is nothing in the Bible that says "homosexual offenders." That is a mistranslation.

 

[Ohioprof]

I have asked this question before to others but received no reply. What Bible translation do you use? I am very much interested in seeing one that accepts the behavior of homosexuality as non-sinful.

Anyone please answer. In debate some negate the sinful nature of the behavior of homosexuality stating that our bibles, (NIV, NASB, NKJV, etc.) are translated incorrectly.

So what bibles do you use that states otherwise?

Think I just repeated myself. Well it's early and I worked until midnight.

God bless.

I do not regard the Bible as the word of God, and so I do not rely on any translation or version as authoritative. I have several different Bibles at home to which I refer, but I see none of them as the word of God.

No version of the Bible condemns same-sex marriage. It's never mentioned as a sin by anyone. That's key, I think. Some people insist that same-sex sex is a grave sin. But within marriage, intimacy as an expression of love and commitment is certainly not a sin. And gay people do get married to same-sex spouses.

 

[Chaplain David]

I do not regard the Bible as the word of God, and so I do not rely on any translation or version as authoritative. I have several different Bibles at home to which I refer, but I see none of them as the word of God.

No version of the Bible condemns same-sex marriage. It's never mentioned as a sin by anyone. That's key, I think. Some people insist that same-sex sex is a grave sin. But within marriage, intimacy as an expression of love and commitment is certainly not a sin. And gay people do get married to same-sex spouses.

Thanks for being honest. I must apologize. I hadn't looked at your gender pic and assumed the whole time we were talking on the other thread you were a man. Good to clear things up.

How do you do that, not use a bible? Did you just hear about Jesus, He sounded good and you joined a church and use their doctrinal positions. Or are there other references you use to help you delve deeper into the height, depth, and breadth of who and what the Triune God is and what He wants for us?

 

[Lord_Barthok_Soc]

I have asked this question before to others but received no reply. What Bible translation do you use? I am very much interested in seeing one that accepts the behavior of homosexuality as non-sinful.

Anyone please answer. In debate some negate the sinful nature of the behavior of homosexuality stating that our bibles, (NIV, NASB, NKJV, etc.) are translated incorrectly.

So what bibles do you use that states otherwise?

Think I just repeated myself. Well it's early and I worked until midnight.

God bless.

Κοινη, NLT, NIV, KJV, NKJV, The Message, Amplified, NASB. Generally.

Some of these use "homosexual" in places, others "sodomites" etc/more vague terms, Greek bibles don't use the word for 'homosexual' as it is understood in today's English.


These arguments have been gone over time and time again, but I would like to make one point here: I would never be able to use this claim of "mistranslation" as a standalone, undeniable proof that "homosexuality" (by today's definition and understanding of the term) is not sinful. But all the well-researched, plausible suggestions that the words might not mean what many people say they mean, shed reasonable doubt upon the verses.

Which means that, just as I can't say "you're translation is wrong IMO" and expect you to suddenly believe my views, you cannot say "my translation is right" and expect me to suddenly side with you.

 

[Ohioprof]

Thanks for being honest. I must apologize. I hadn't looked at your gender pic and assumed the whole time we were talking on the other thread you were a man. Good to clear things up.

How do you do that, not use a bible? Did you just hear about Jesus, He sounded good and you joined a church and use their doctrinal positions. Or are there other references you use to help you delve deeper into the height, depth, and breadth of who and what the Triune God is and what He wants for us?

I've spent quite a lot of time answering these questions before, and they led to largely off-topic debates among various posters here about what makes a person a Christian.

So, without getting into an argument about this off topic question again, I will explain my faith very briefly. I was raised Lutheran, but I left that church, because it did not suit me. I am today, and have been for most of my adult life, a Unitarian Universalist Christian. I do not believe the Bible is the word of God; I believe that the Bible was written by ordinary, fallible human beings who were seeking to understand God, to know God. I do not believe in the trinity. I believe in universal salvation. My home congregation was founded as a Universalist congregation 141 years ago.

I think that some of what is in the canonical Gospels regarding Jesus is probably accurate, and some of it is not. I also think that some of what is in the Gnostic Gospels regarding Jesus is probably accurate, and some of it is not. I look to the scholarship of the Jesus Seminar to provide us with insight into what Jesus probably did and did not say or do.

Faith to me is not a doctrine, not a set of beliefs. Faith is to me a practice, a way of living.

I do not believe that being gay is a sin, nor do I believe that intimacy within a same-sex marriage is a sin.