From 1619 to 2019: 400 years of racial progress?

Kaon · Dec 2, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Another Thanksgiving has come and gone and after having visited Williamsburg, VA this past week, looking upon small masses of my fellow Americans who were, like me, out and about with family, I thought about how far our supposed 'Christianized' and even 'Enlightened' nation has come in its own racial relations.

In connection to the above, I've been also reflecting over the contents of the following article which focuses upon the fact that 1619 was a pivotal year for the demographic and political development of some of the people groups who, together, make up the now present United States in 2019.

1619: The Year That Shaped America

So, why can't we all just get over the artificial racial divides that we've had in the U.S. for four centuries? What moral or ideological incongruities continue to stand in the way of political and moral progress among an ethnically diverse population of U.S. citizens?

1. We can't get over it because people think it is artificial, for example.

2. There is purposeful ignorance and denial - which I get. I don't want to be told my success is based on a delicate system that inflates and compounds privilege for me, (not social privilege; financial, legislative, medical and academic privilege). I used to want to believe I control my own destiny, and that the playing field is even, so that whatever accomplishments I make are solely my accomplishment - no extra help.

3. There is just the fact that some proponents of racism teach their children the "truth" about white supremacy, for example. Just because they can hide well in plain sight doesn't mean they have abandoned their teachings from their fathers.

4. People really believe in racism. It is an Ouroboros of events that allow the racial hegemony to believe it is actually better, including "help" from the very entities that perpetuate the ideology.

You cannot change the minds of adults; hard wiring goes a long way. However, experience allows for changes. One would have to experience what it is like to be the "bottom race" in order to fully understand what it is like. The irony is I bet any of us can guess what that race is - which is part of the problem: we know the problem, but don't act, deny or remain ignorant.

FireDragon76 · Dec 3, 2019

Silmarien said:
On the other hand... Help Wanted. No Irish Need Apply.

The anti-Hispanic bias is a strange one, because I think it combines racial animus with the centuries old anti-Catholic hostility that led to a ton of propaganda against the Spanish Empire. Many of the anti-Hispanic stereotypes are very similar to the old anti-Spanish ones.

I believe that's a good observation. America has never come to terms with its own legacy of the Black Legend.

FireDragon76 · Dec 3, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
There's "identity politics" and then there's "racial identity politics," and this latter kind of thinking really shouldn't manifest among those who call themselves "Christian."

White Evangelical Christians in the US have been intermingling with racial identity politics for a long time (all the way back to before the 19th century). This is nothing new. The election of Obama just put them into panic mode and helped propel Trump to the White House.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 3, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
White Evangelical Christians in the US have been intermingling with racial identity politics for a long time (all the way back to before the 19th century). This is nothing new. The election of Obama just put them into panic mode and helped propel Trump to the White House.

Yes. Some of that is what's (vaguely) implied in my OP and on more than one level.

BNR32FAN · Dec 3, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Another Thanksgiving has come and gone and after having visited Williamsburg, VA this past week, looking upon small masses of my fellow Americans who were, like me, out and about with family, I thought about how far our supposed 'Christianized' and even 'Enlightened' nation has come in its own racial relations.

In connection to the above, I've been also reflecting over the contents of the following article which focuses upon the fact that 1619 was a pivotal year for the demographic and political development of some of the people groups who, together, make up the now present United States in 2019.

1619: The Year That Shaped America

So, why can't we all just get over the artificial racial divides that we've had in the U.S. for four centuries? What moral or ideological incongruities continue to stand in the way of political and moral progress among an ethnically diverse population of U.S. citizens?

Christ is not abiding in them.

FireDragon76 · Dec 3, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
Well, not only have many generations been subjected to Darwinist theory here in the US, people are loathe to look at the past and judge it rightly.

Many slave owners in the US and in the Colonies prior, viewed Africans as inferior people even before Darwin wrote 'The Origin of the Species.' Many of those same people went to church and considered themselves followers of Christ.

Because people feel threatened by any harsh criticism of America's past, and they know deep down that reconciliation would require repentance and forgiveness, they'd rather just ignore the past and pretend that it has no bearing on how our governments act today. "Get over it" is the mantra. Meanwhile, the vast majority of our prison population is drawn from the minority and we can't seem to grasp that this is itself evidence of the racially motivated nature of our justice system.

We're in denial. Distrust of people who look and act differently is human nature. It's culturally built-in (it wasn't put there by God). God asks us to change, to repent of our human failings. We are to follow in Jesus' footsteps. Had skin color ever been a valid reason to feel superior, the eunich in Acts 8 (a black Jew) would never have been approached by Philip. The Holy Spirit never would have sent him to preach to that man.

The command to love our neighbors as we love ourselves is a hard command. But we weren't called to easy work. We weren't called to be rich as these modern witches who call themselves preachers of God tell us on T.V. We were called to serve others in humility and love. Super hard concept to accept.

Americans tend to find repentance very hard. Evangelical religion mitigates against it a certain extent, because it tends to focus on purely private morality. There's a lack of focus on social structures and relationships.

FireDragon76 · Dec 3, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Yes, I agree, but in the U.S. "identity" has always been a political issue, even before that dratted Stamp Act came along in 1765. No, as my article in my OP briefly describes, we've had at least 400 years of "identity" politics in the political bag here in "America." I imagine that to my chagrine, there shall be more.

I looked back over saw this response. This is exactly correct. White privilege means never having to recognize that identity politics as such. We are so used to the rhetoric of "identity politics" being the perceived purview of non-whites, and that's simply not the case in reality.

Ken-1122 · Dec 3, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I looked back over saw this response. This is exactly correct. White privilege means never having to recognize that identity politics as such. We are so used to the rhetoric of "identity politics" being the perceived purview of non-whites, and that's simply not the case in reality.

What do you mean by identity politics?

Ana the Ist · Dec 3, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I believe that's a good observation. America has never come to terms with its own legacy of the Black Legend.

Black Legend?

Ana the Ist · Dec 3, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I looked back over saw this response. This is exactly correct. White privilege means never having to recognize that identity politics as such. We are so used to the rhetoric of "identity politics" being the perceived purview of non-whites, and that's simply not the case in reality.

For the vast majority of my life, there has never been anyone white that I've known, ever advocating for a candidate because they are white....ever.

I'm certainly not going to say it hasn't happened...but it's definitely never been suggested by mainstream media sources (or really even fringe media sources).

The difference is that now, this election cycle and the last....things like, race, gender, and sexuality have suddenly become super important to many people on the left. For example...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/03/historically-diverse-democratic-field-may-soon-be-represented-entirely-by-white-candidates/?outputType=amp

Frankly, it's racist and disgusting.

White presidential candidates face 'woke litmus test' on race

Should a White Man Be the Face of the Democratic Party in 2020?

Silmarien · Dec 3, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
Black Legend?

La Leyenda Negra. It's the term used for the propaganda war waged against the Spanish Empire, i.e., the idea that the Spanish were brutal, murderous, etc. (In reality they weren't worse than any of the other colonial powers, and arguably more humane than some of them.)

Ana the Ist · Dec 3, 2019

Silmarien said:
La Leyenda Negra. It's the term used for the propaganda war waged against the Spanish Empire, i.e., the idea that the Spanish were brutal, murderous, etc. (In reality they weren't worse than any of the other colonial powers, and arguably more humane than some of them.)

Meh. Inconsequential.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 3, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
Seems a pretty rare phenomenon.

What's rare? Racism or the perception that racism is still a problem? According to Pew Research:

Views on Race in America 2019

Ana the Ist · Dec 3, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
What's rare?

The kind of racism your post mentioned...

"some people feel and express an intense dislike for other ethnic groups and treat them as 'if' those other persons are nearly of a different species?"

Most racism isn't that intense...it's negative generalizations about people based on race, like laziness, violent, or immorality.

FireDragon76 · Dec 3, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
The kind of racism your post mentioned...

"some people feel and express an intense dislike for other ethnic groups and treat them as 'if' those other persons are nearly of a different species?"

Most racism isn't that intense...it's negative generalizations about people based on race, like laziness, violent, or immorality.

That's fairly intense in itself. Thinking that a whole group of people are defined by violence or laziness generally goes hand in hand with seeing them as unlike you and your in-group in fundamental ways.

Ana the Ist · Dec 3, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
That's fairly intense in itself. Thinking that a whole group of people are defined by violence or laziness generally goes hand in hand with seeing them as unlike you and your in-group in fundamental ways.

If you want to believe that....fine.

I'm simply saying that it doesn't involve dehumanizing people or seeing them as an entirely different species. That's a lot more intense.

jayem · Dec 3, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
But why do you think some people feel and express an intense dislike for other ethnic groups and treat them as 'if' those other persons are nearly of a different species?

As my avatar states, I'm a naturalist, and that's how I approach discussions like this. Racial and ethnic animosity are all aspects of tribalism. Which is part of the evolutionary baggage we inherited from our primate ancestors. We evolved from hominins who lived in smallish multi-family groups and tribes. There was survival value in being suspicious, if not actually hostile towards members of other tribes who were competitors for territory, food, and females of breeding age. It's likely that those proto-humans who were more aggressively tribalistic, acquired more resources, and were thus more reproductively successful. With the result that natural selection favored those with an innate tendency to dislike, or at least be wary, of people who are racially or ethnically different from themselves. I believe tribal instincts are the root cause of racism and ethnic (and also religious) prejudice. Just like any other biological trait, these instincts can vary in strength among individuals. Fortunately, with our large brains, we are not driven totally by our instincts. Maladaptive tendencies can be suppressed by how we are reared, by what we learn, and by our cultural milieu. (Though OTOH, they can also be augmented by these same factors.)

In fairness, there are articles claiming that tribalism is not innate, but learned. While I'd like that to be true, my gut tells me that at the most basic level, it's hard-wired. Yes, we can learn to suppress it. But until we're able to reprogram our brains, I'm afraid the only way to eliminate tribalism is by further evolution.

FireDragon76 · Dec 4, 2019

jayem said:
As my avatar states, I'm a naturalist, and that's how I approach discussions like this. Racial and ethnic animosity are all aspects of tribalism. Which is part of the evolutionary baggage we inherited from our primate ancestors. We evolved from hominins who lived in smallish multi-family groups and tribes. There was survival value in being suspicious, if not actually hostile towards members of other tribes who were competitors for territory, food, and females of breeding age. It's likely that those proto-humans who were more aggressively tribalistic, acquired more resources, and were thus more reproductively successful. With the result that natural selection favored those with an innate tendency to dislike, or at least be wary, of people who are racially or ethnically different from themselves. I believe tribal instincts are the root cause of racism and ethnic (and also religious) prejudice. Just like any other biological trait, these instincts can vary in strength among individuals. Fortunately, with our large brains, we are not driven totally by our instincts. Maladaptive tendencies can be suppressed by how we are reared, by what we learn, and by our cultural milieu. (Though OTOH, they can also be augmented by these same factors.)

In fairness, there are articles claiming that tribalism is not innate, but learned. While I'd like that to be true, my gut tells me that at the most basic level, it's hard-wired. Yes, we can learn to suppress it. But until we're able to reprogram our brains, I'm afraid the only way to eliminate tribalism is by further evolution.

Check out the book "Buddha's Brain". Evolution has bequeathed us to respond more to negative than positive emotions. It takes a certain amount of instruction, education, and asceticism to literally hack the brain to be any different.

https://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Brain-Practical-Neuroscience-Happiness/dp/1491518669

2PhiloVoid · Dec 5, 2019

jayem said:
As my avatar states, I'm a naturalist, and that's how I approach discussions like this. Racial and ethnic animosity are all aspects of tribalism. Which is part of the evolutionary baggage we inherited from our primate ancestors. We evolved from hominins who lived in smallish multi-family groups and tribes. There was survival value in being suspicious, if not actually hostile towards members of other tribes who were competitors for territory, food, and females of breeding age. It's likely that those proto-humans who were more aggressively tribalistic, acquired more resources, and were thus more reproductively successful. With the result that natural selection favored those with an innate tendency to dislike, or at least be wary, of people who are racially or ethnically different from themselves. I believe tribal instincts are the root cause of racism and ethnic (and also religious) prejudice. Just like any other biological trait, these instincts can vary in strength among individuals. Fortunately, with our large brains, we are not driven totally by our instincts. Maladaptive tendencies can be suppressed by how we are reared, by what we learn, and by our cultural milieu. (Though OTOH, they can also be augmented by these same factors.)

In fairness, there are articles claiming that tribalism is not innate, but learned. While I'd like that to be true, my gut tells me that at the most basic level, it's hard-wired. Yes, we can learn to suppress it. But until we're able to reprogram our brains, I'm afraid the only way to eliminate tribalism is by further evolution.

You can believe that racism today is just a primitive evolutionary holdover, but I'd like to see your sources for this. But even if this is the case, I think it's safe to say we've evolved enough that we can do better. Jesus did better ... Paul did better. Even Peter did better with a little bit of educational prodding...

Ana the Ist · Dec 5, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
You can believe that racism today is just a primitive evolutionary holdover, but I'd like to see your sources for this. But even if this is the case, I think it's safe to say we've evolved enough that we can do better. Jesus did better ... Paul did better. Even Peter did better with a little bit of educational prodding...

Really? Jesus didn't have any in-group biases?

Does everyone go to heaven when they die or just those that believe in Jesus lord and savior?

From 1619 to 2019: 400 years of racial progress?

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