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Friendly Filioque Forum

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Suzannah

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Hi James...I don't think that's what Choir Dir meant. The Orthodox do not believe the filioque at all. And they do not want it added to the Creed.

Personally and in as much as I understand it, (I am too sinful to truly grasp all this in any Godly way), the filioque is about the origin of the Holy Spirit. The wording of the Filioque seems to the Orthodox anyway, to imply that the origin of the HS is the Son, that is that the Son created the HS. These councils were so heated that's what Choir Dir was referring to. It may not have been the intention of the Western Church to imply this at all....I leave it all to the Patriarchs to iron this out ...I am not wise enough to assess it.
 
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Polycarp1

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First, my apologies for nearly killing the thread! :sorry:

Second, an observation: the West sees the Sending of the Holy Spirit, as an element of the "Economic Trinity," in this passage -- and unquestionably the Holy Spirit was sent at the behest of the Son. The East sees the eternal procession in this passage, and like the Son the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, the Ultimate Ground and Origin of All Being. To me, the dispute is similar to one over the question of whether chlorophyll or sunlight makes the grass green -- both do, in quite different ways.

An even closer parallel would be the Theotokos. Typically, a Protestant's initial reaction is to see this as a case of Mariolatry -- when the intent was to emphasize the Eternal Godhood of Jesus. Mary is "She-Who-Bore-God" because she was the mother of Jesus Christ -- and He was God the Son from all eternity, including in her womb. The title was given to combat a Christological heresy, IIRC the Nestorians, not to accord a special honor to Mary. Likewise, the Filioque originated in the equating of "God" with the Father alone -- something still prevalent today, as you'll notice if you spend any time in the GA forum, where questions like how can it be just for "God" to torture Jesus abound. The idea that it was God Himself sacrificing Himself for our sakes escapes their mental horizons.

So too the Filioque. God the Holy Spirit came to our aid in response to the Will of God -- who is the Holy Trinity of which He is a part. The "Essential Trinity" which the East rightly intended to discuss with "proceeds from the Father" is confused with the "Economic Trinity" which the West rightly speaks of in "...and the Son."
 
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ChoirDir

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The events to schism
The Byzantines had little appreciation of the various developments regarding the Filioque in the West between the sixth and ninth centuries. Communication grew steadily worse, and their own struggles with monothelitism, iconoclasm, and the rise of Islam left little time to follow closely theological developments in the West. However, their interest in the Filioque became more pronounced in the middle of the 9th century, when it came to be combined with jurisdictional disputes between Rome and Constantinople, as well as with the activities of Frankish missionaries in Bulgaria. When Byzantine missionaries were expelled from Bulgaria by King Boris, under Western influence, they returned to Constantinople and reported on Western practices, including the use of the Creed with the Filioque. Patriarch Photios of Constantinople, in 867, addressed a strongly worded encyclical to the other Eastern patriarchs, commenting on the political and ecclesiastical crisis in Bulgaria as well as on the tensions between Constantinople and Rome. In this letter, Photios denounced the Western missionaries in Bulgaria and criticized Western liturgical practices.

Most significantly, Patriarch Photios called the addition of the Filioque in the West a blasphemy, and presented a substantial theological argument against the view of the Trinity which he believed it depicted. Photios’s opposition to the Filioque was based upon his view that it signifies two causes in the Trinity, and diminishes the mon*archy of the Father. Thus, the Filioque seemed to him to detract from the distinc*tive character of each person of the Trinity, and to confuse their relationships, paradoxically bearing in itself the seeds of both pagan polytheism and Sabellian modalism (Mystagogy 9, 11). In his letter of 867, Photios does not, however, demonstrate any knowledge of the Latin patristic tradition behind the use of the Filioque in the West. His opposition to the Filioque would subsequently receive further elaboration in his Letter to the Patriarch of Aquileia in 883 or 884, as well as in his famous Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, written about 886.

In concluding his letter of 867, Photios called for an ecumenical council that would resolve the issue of the interpolation of the Filioque, as well as illuminating its theological foundation. A local council was held in Constantinople in 867, which deposed Pope Nicholas I - an action which increased tensions between the two sees. In 863, Nicholas himself had refused to recognize Photios as Patriarch because of his allegedly uncanonical appointment. With changes in the imperial government, Photios was forced to resign in 867, and was replaced by Patriarch Ignatius, whom he himself had replaced in 858. A new council was convened in Constantinople later in 869. With papal representatives present and with imperial support, this Council excommunicated Photios, and was subsequently recognized in the Medieval West, for reasons unrelated to the Filioque or Photios, as the Eighth Ecumenical Council, although it was never recognized as such in the East.

The relationship between Rome and Constantinople changed when Photios again became patriarch in 877, following the death of Ignatius. In Rome, Pope Nicholas had died in 867, and was succeeded by Pope Hadrian II (867-872), who himself anathematized Photios in 869. His successor, Pope John VIII (872-882), was willing to recognize Photios as the legitimate Patriarch in Constantinople under certain conditions, thus clearing the way for a restoration of better relations. A Council was held in Constan*tinople in 879-880, in the presence of representatives from Rome and the other Eastern Patriarchates. This Council, considered by some modern Orthodox theologians to be ecumenical, suppressed the decisions of the earlier Council of 869-870, and recognized the status of Photios as patriarch. It affirmed the ecumenical character of the Council of 787 and its decisions against iconoclasm. There was no extensive discussion of the Filioque, which was not yet a part of the Creed professed in Rome itself, and no statement was made by the Council about its theological justification; yet this Council formally reaffirmed the original text of the Creed of 381, without the Filioque, and anathematized anyone who would compose another confession of faith. The Council also spoke of the Roman see in terms of great respect, and allowed the Papal legates the traditional prerogatives of presidency, recognizing their right to begin and to close discussions and to sign documents first. Nevertheless, the documents give no indication that the bishops present formally recognized any priority of jurisdiction for the see of Rome, outside of the framework of the Patristic understanding of the communion of Churches and the sixth-century canonical theory of the Pentarchy. The difficult question of the competing claims of the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople to jurisdiction in Bulgaria was left to be decided by the Emperor. After the Council, the Filioque continued to be used in the Creed in parts of Western Europe, despite the intentions of Pope John VIII, who, like his predecessors, maintained the text sanctioned by the Council of 381.

A new stage in the history of the controversy was reached in the early eleventh century. During the synod following the coronation of King Henry II as Holy Roman Emperor at Rome in 1014, the Creed, including the Filioque, was sung for the first time at a papal Mass. Because of this action, the liturgical use of the Creed, with the Filioque, now was generally assumed in the Latin Church to have the sanction of the papacy. Its inclusion in the Eucharist, after two centuries of papal resistance of the practice, reflected a new dominance of the German Emperors over the papacy, as well as the papacy’s growing sense of its own authority, under imperial protection, within the entire Church, both western and eastern.

The Filioque figured prominently in the tumultuous events of 1054, when excommunications were exchanged by representatives of the Eastern and Western Churches meeting in Constantinople. Within the context of his anathemas against Patriarch Michael I Cerularios of Constantinople and certain of his advisors, Cardinal Humbert of Silva Candida, the legate of Pope Leo IX, accused the Byzantines of improperly deleting the Filioque from the Creed, and criticized other Eastern liturgical practices. In responding to these accusations, Patriarch Michael recognized that the anathemas of Humbert did not originate with Leo IX, and cast his own anathemas simply upon the papal delegation. Leo, in fact, was already dead and his successor had not been elected. At the same time, Michael condemned the Western use of the Filioque in the Creed, as well as other Western liturgical practices. This exchange of limited excommunications did not lead, by itself, to a formal schism between Rome and Constan*tinople, despite the views of later historians; it did, however, deepen the growing estrangement between Constantinople and Rome.
 
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JVAC

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From reading the histories, I gathered that the Orthodox didn't have a problem with Filioque, only until it found it's way into the text of the Creed. Suzanah said that, no they don't believe in filioque at all. I am a little confused here.

Also what is the official Orthodox teaching today? Could anyone post the creed without the filioque? I have never seen it. I'll post the version found in the LBW:


Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen


We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
In accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom shall have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
And the life of the world to come. Amen.
 
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nyj

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JVAC said:
Could anyone post the creed without the filioque? I have never seen it.
The Nicene Creed said by the Orthodox only differs in one aspect:

Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Take away the bolded part (the Orthodox do not say this phrase) and that's the entire difference between the East and West. Everything else is identical.
 
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JVAC

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nyj said:
The Nicene Creed said by the Orthodox only differs in one aspect:

Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Take away the bolded part (the Orthodox do not say this phrase) and that's the entire difference between the East and West. Everything else is identical
I thought so, but I remember a few months ago, there seemed to be some other problems with the creed. Maybe I was hallucinating.
 
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Suzannah

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I think I just have to admit it: I'm just not as intellectually based as all of you.
But I do want to share this, because I really think it offers the Orthodox perspective. Bishop (now Saint) Nikolai Velimorovic, wrote a beautiful book called "The Faith of Chosen People". It is a phrase by phrase explanation of the Nicene Creed from the Orthodox perspective. Even if you do not agree with any of the theology, a person would have to have a heart of stone to not at least LIKE the guy...
You can read it online for free, here:
http://www.sv-luka.org/Nikolai
If the site is down, just try back later...
It's down right now...
 
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