Freewill or predestination?

[SNPete]

I have a desire to understand how Calvinists view the nature of “getting saved”. What is the role of an individual’s decision to seek God and Christ? My personal view is that we are predestined, based on God’s foreknowledge (Rom 8:29). That is; God knows beforehand, which of us will accept Christ as savior through our freewill and on that basis then predestines those folks to be in His Kingdom.



I also look at Rom. 10:9 and 10:13 as proof texts that one’s desire to seek God will result in salvation when the end result is accepting Jesus as savior.



I ask this question, not for the purpose of debate, but to gain the Calvinist perspective on salvation. I desire to broaden my view and knowledge of theology. What has triggered this desire is that I am starting to realize that many people will never be saved, either because they have no interest in God or for some other reason. All the prayer in the world does not seem to have an effect.



Also, do Calvinists believe that some people are destined for hell (for lack of a better term) and some for salvation regardless of personal choice or desire?



Thank you for your time.

 

[Monergism]

SNPete, greetings:

I have a desire to understand how Calvinists view the nature of “getting saved”. What is the role of an individual’s decision to seek God and Christ? My personal view is that we are predestined, based on God’s foreknowledge (Rom 8:29). That is; God knows beforehand, which of us will accept Christ as savior through our freewill and on that basis then predestines those folks to be in His Kingdom.

Your position is that of the Arminianist. The Calvinist believes differently. He does not believe that God saw who would believe, and who would not. It was not by foreseen faith nor by works, but by God. As it is written: "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12). Aha, we can see that the sinner has received, that he has believed in Christ. But let's go to the next verse, which says, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." So, while the sinner has received Christ, it is not because of him, that he has received. It wasn't "of human decision."

I also look at Rom. 10:9 and 10:13 as proof texts that one’s desire to seek God will result in salvation when the end result is accepting Jesus as savior.

And Romans 3:11 shows that no man seeks God, and that he does not understand. If you read 1 Corinthians 12:3, we can see a proof text for the Calvinist, which says, "Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says 'Jesus be cursed,' and no on can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit." So, I would believe so that those who do confess with their mouth that "Jesus is Lord," and believe in their heart, only have done so, because the Holy Spirit has enabled them to do so.

I ask this question, not for the purpose of debate, but to gain the Calvinist perspective on salvation. I desire to broaden my view and knowledge of theology. What has triggered this desire is that I am starting to realize that many people will never be saved, either because they have no interest in God or for some other reason. All the prayer in the world does not seem to have an effect.

I am glad that you are not here for a debate, and that you came to learn. As the Solomonic proverb goes, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17).

Also, do Calvinists believe that some people are destined for hell (for lack of a better term) and some for salvation regardless of personal choice or desire?

I go by Scripture, that God has mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He has compassion (Romans 9:15). God is not in any way unjust. Romans 9 is a good chapter to read. I see the Letter to the Romans as a predestinarian letter.

Thank you for your time.

And thank you as well for your questions.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello thanks for your questions. I will try to briefly answer, but I'm sure there are others here who will be happy to discuss this matter in detail with you.

I have a desire to understand how Calvinists view the nature of “getting saved”. What is the role of an individual’s decision to seek God and Christ? My personal view is that we are predestined, based on God’s foreknowledge (Rom 8:29). That is; God knows beforehand, which of us will accept Christ as savior through our freewill and on that basis then predestines those folks to be in His Kingdom.

We believe that God has predestined all things, including those that would be saved. First though you need to understand that we believe that all men are fallen in Adam and are rightly deserving of God’s wrath and condemnation. “There is none righteous, no, not one.” If god simply desired to be just and not merciful, we would all be condemned. But God, in eternity determined to save a people for Himself.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will…

We also believe that if left to ourselves none of us would chose God because we our corruption. In our natural state we are unwilling and unable to come to God.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We know that : But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We believe that the Scripture teach that God predestined some people to salvation before creating anything. The others He passes by and they get the punishment they justly deserve for their rejection of Him.

Countless books have been written on this subject but this is a Kernel of an answer to your question.

I also look at Rom. 10:9 and 10:13 as proof texts that one’s desire to seek God will result in salvation when the end result is accepting Jesus as savior.

But who desires God? Roman’s 10 is right on the heel of Romans 9. Look at what it says to get your context. You may want to read this on that test: Romans 9:14-20.

Also, do Calvinists believe that some people are destined for hell (for lack of a better term) and some for salvation regardless of personal choice or desire?

The question is a bad one. We believe that all people will personally reject God if left to themselves. We are able to choose God because He first chose us in eternity. When His elect hear the Gospel (at the ordained time) The Holy Spirit changes our heart. We are made alive and THEN, we truly do choose God. But we choose Him because of the work that His Spirit first does in our hearts.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you,

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[CCWoody]

I have a desire to understand how Calvinists view the nature of “getting saved”. What is the role of an individual’s decision to seek God and Christ? My personal view is that we are predestined, based on God’s foreknowledge (Rom 8:29). That is; God knows beforehand, which of us will accept Christ as savior through our freewill and on that basis then predestines those folks to be in His Kingdom.

Foreknowledge and Predestination

ROMANS 8: 28 - 30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is the Truth of Scripture, evidenced clearly enough for all to see in what has been called "The Golden Chain of Predestination" in Romans 8: 28 - 30:

God's Foreknowledge of the Eternal Destiny of Men is NOT BASED on His Predestination.
God's Predestination of the Eternal Destiny of Men is BASED UPON His Foreknowledge.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."

No one can deny that those whom God has Predestined as to their Everlasting Destiny, He first Foreknew as to their Salvation. The exact number, and the every name, of every individual of whom God has Predestined to be called, and justified, and sanctified, and glorified, these very same ones He first Foreknew that He would Save.

The question is not whether God's Predestination of the Saints as to their ultimate Glorification is, or is not, based upon His Foreknowledge as to their Salvation. God has Predestinated based upon His Foreknowledge, that is certain enough.

The Question is this, and this specifically: ON WHAT BASIS has God Foreknown those whom He would Predestine??

• The Answer given by some, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of their actions towards Him.
• The Answer given by others, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of His Own actions towards them.

#1. In terms of strict Logic the first answer cannot possibly be true.
Every TRUE Christian will grant God’s perfect Omniscience; for not to do so is rank heresy. Likewise, every TRUE Christian will grant God’s perfect Omnipotence, for not to do so is rank heresy.

But grant God’s perfect Foreknowledge of All Potentialities, and Sovereign Freedom of Action, and you have just given the Reformed theologian the entirety of the debate. For if God, alone in Eternity, perfectly Foreknows all possible Creations, and perfectly Foreknows the operations of Free Will in each, from Beginning to End, and with Sovereign Freedom of Action Wills to give Actuality to the Creation of His choosing, then simply by the Act of Creation, He has Predestined all that will occur in that Creation -- having chosen to give Actuality to That One, in preference to all other Potential Creations which He could have willed into existence instead.

This is not to deny God’s capacity for Miraculous Intervention, for we worship a dynamic, Living God; but it does establish that God’s Interventions are themselves Predestined by Him from the Beginning, for He has Foreknown all possible Creations, and could have given Actuality to a Creation in which He would not intervene, or would intervene differently; But He Sovereignly Willed to give Actuality to the Creation (foreknown from beginning to end) which He chose, including therein His Foreknowledge of all Interventions which He would Effect.

Grant God’s Omniscience and Omnipotence, and the Augustinian/Calvinist will win the debate at its very root, every time. The Pelagian heretics knew this, which is exactly why they sought to deny God’s Omniscience -- they rightly knew it to be the anvil upon which Augustine would break them! And so it is today.

#2. In terms of other Scriptures the first answer cannot possible be true.
Proving the truth of Christian-Pauline-Petrine-Johannine-Augustinian-Calvinist Absolute Predestination is blasted EASY on the field of Logic. Why even bother to indulge in such critical reductionism when the Truth of these propositions is laid out plainly enough for us in Scripture by the very spoken Word of the Son of God Himself??

One of the most important passages on the Omniscient Foreknowledge of God is the Gospel of Saint Matthew, chapter 11 verses 20 through 27. These verses are critically important NOT because they speak of the DEPTH of God's Omniscience and Foreknowledge in knowing every last detail of His Creation from Genesis to End (there is plenty enough exposition of the Depth of God's Omniscience in Job and Psalms and Isaiah, and it is rich enough), but because these verses demonstrate the BREADTH of God's Omniscient Foreknowledge in knowing the outcomes of all Possible Creations. Let's examine these verses:

• Matthew 11: 20 - 27 --
  Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Now, what do these verses tell us, regarding the breadth of God's Foreknowledge?


They tell us -- rather, they Biblically affirm and elucidate for us -- that which has already been examined: That, in His Omniscient Foreknowledge, God Foreknows just exactly how HIS OWN actions, one way or another, will result in different choices being made by His creatures, to choose one way, or to choose another.

To wit:

• God Foreknew a scenario in which Sodom, Tyre, and Sidon WOULD NOT freely choose to Repent (this is the scenario which actually transpired); and God Foreknew a scenario in which they WOULD freely choose to Repent (this scenario did not transpire).
• God knew exactly what would be required to bring about this foreknown Repentance of Sodom, Tyre, and Sidon – specifically, the dispensation of salvific Grace in the performance of Miracles equivalent to those performed in Korazim, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. “If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”
• It was fully within God’s Power to perform such Miracles in Tyre, Sidon, or Sodom, had He electively chosen to do so. After all, He did perform these Miracles in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum (who, their rejection of these mighty works, proved themselves to be yet more stiff-necked even than Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom!! How much Grace would have been required to overcome the arrogance of Korazin, or Bethsaid, or Capernaum? Would it have required a “Road to Damascus” type Miracle? Only God knows); and, after all, God has said of His own Omnipotence, “The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand” (Is. 14:24) and again, “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:” (Is. 46:10).
• Foreknowing with perfect certainty that, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, His Choice to perform Miracles of Grace equal to those which He had ordained to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum would unconditionally result in the peoples of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom freely choosing to repent of their wicked ways and “remaining to this day”; and, Foreknowing with perfect certainty that, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, His Choice NOT to perform Miracles of Grace equal to those which He had ordained to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum would unconditionally result in the peoples of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom NOT freely choosing to repent of their wicked ways, and thus becoming subject to the Judgment of destruction and damnation;
• God SOVEREIGNLY CHOSE not to perform, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, those mighty works of Miraculous Grace equivalent to those which He had ordained to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum which would have resulted in the people of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom freely choosing to Repent and be spared Judgment. God Foreknew that the performance of such equivalent Miracles would result in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom freely choosing to Repent; and God Foreknew that the NON-performance of such equivalent Miracles would result in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom freely choosing NOT to Repent. God foreknew with perfect certainty, that His Choice, either to perform, or not to perform, such Miracles -- would have, as its unconditionally foreknown result, the peoples of those cities freely choosing to repent, or not to repent. He foreknew that if He performed these miracles, they would choose to repent; and He foreknew that if He did not perform these Miracles, they would choose not to repent.
• Having both Foreknown potentialities available to the Power of His Omnipotence, God chose and ordained NOT to perform, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, Miracles of Grace equivalent to those which He did ordain to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. And, as the perfectly foreknown result of this ordination, these peoples freely chose not to Repent, just as He foreknew they would not.
• Having it fully within His power to PREDESTINE the perfectly Foreknown result of these cities freely choosing to Repent (as a reaction to the performance of such Miracles), and having it fully within His power to PREDESTINE the perfectly Foreknown result of these cities freely choosing to NOT Repent (as a result of the non-performance of such Miracles), God SOVEREIGNLY ELECTED AND ORDAINED NOT to perform, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, Miracles equivalent to those which He ordained to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, thus absolutely and unconditionally PREDESTINATING the ultimate Damnation of these peoples as the perfectly foreknown result of His Choice NOT to perform those Miracles which He Foreknew, with perfect certainty, would unconditionally result in these peoples freely choosing to Repent if He were to perform them.

Thus it is certain, and precisely established by the exact Biblical wording of Christ’s condemnation of Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, that God’s Predestination is NOT based upon His Foreknowledge of Man’s actions towards God, but upon God’s Foreknowledge of HIS OWN actions towards Man. For before a man has ever been brought into existence, God foreknows with perfect certainty just exactly what the man will freely choose in each and every circumstance if God ordains to dispense certain Graces unto him in that circumstance, and God foreknows with perfect certainty just exactly what DIFFERENT choice the man will freely choose in a circumstance if God ordains NOT to dispense certain Graces unto him in that circumstance. Therefore has the prophet Isaiah surely said, “Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”

I am of the impression that many rage against Reformed theology, primarily on the basis of their hatred of the doctrine of Absolute Predestination.

But Absolute Predestination is NOT the logical dependent consequent of Reformed theology. Rather, Reformed theology is the logical dependent consequent of simply reading what the Bible teaches about Predestination.

IN FACT, Absolute Predestination is the logical dependent consequent of God’s infinitely comprehensive Foreknowledge -- an unavoidable Fact of Reality resulting from the unarguable Axiom that God Foreknows just exactly what SPECIFIC CHOICE a man will freely choose if God ordains to dispense Grace unto him in a given circumstance, and just exactly what DIFFERENT CHOICE a man will freely choose if God ordains not to dispense Grace unto him in a given circumstance; and God has precisely Foreknown from all eternity whether or not He has ordained to dispense Grace (resulting in the man freely choosing one specifically Foreknown choice), or not to dispense Grace (resulting in the man freely choosing a different specifically Foreknown choice).

Overthrowing Reformed theology – even were it possible without putting the Bible through a paper shredder, which it is not – would do nothing to overthrow the Fact of Absolute Predestination, for absolute Predestination is founded NOT upon the particular doctrines of Reformed theology, but upon God’s infinitely comprehensive foreknowledge of the choices man will make in a given situation, or make differently, in response to God’s foreordained Election to dispense Grace, or not to dispense Grace, unto that man, in that situation. This is precisely why the Socinian heretics DENIED God’s Foreknowledge of the Choices of Men – for if God knows in advance that a Man will freely choose ONE thing if God shows him grace, and will freely choose A DIFFERENT thing if God ordains NOT to show him grace, then God, in Eternity, has absolutely predestined one, or the other, Foreknown End based upon His sovereign election of Grace.

Every man who will ever be Saved was Foreknown to God in Eternity; every man who will ever be Damned was Foreknown to God in Eternity; and had God chosen to Save the city of Sodom, rather than damn her, He knew exactly what it would take, and had it fully within His power, and Foreknew that Repentance would be the perfectly-certain result. He chose instead to damn Sodom; leaving Sodom in her sins, performing not the miracles which He foreknew would be sufficient to bring her to Repentance, allowing her perfectly-foreknown free choice thus to NOT repent, and bringing destruction and damnation upon that wicked city.

And, that in a nutshell is a Reformed perspective upon Romans 8:28

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Your belief that man decides to believe on Christ and then God chooses him to be saved is a blatant denial of a biblical epistemology.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

In order for grace to remain the undeserved merit that it is, it must remain undeserved. If God were to wait for us to act, we could then boast in what we have done. Election is the only option that includes grace. There are many who deny grace, but then nobody likes to admit that they are unworthy of the favor of God.

 

[SNPete]

Thanks for the answers thus far.

CC's post was a bit more complex than I was expecting, but I think I am getting an understanding of the Calvinist view on eternal destiny.

 

[CCWoody]

CC's post was a bit more complex than I was expecting, but I think I am getting an understanding of the Calvinist view on eternal destiny.

Well, as long as you are going to play in the sandbox with the Calvinists, I want to make sure you get your money's worth.

 

[Jon_]

Thanks for the answers thus far.

CC's post was a bit more complex than I was expecting, but I think I am getting an understanding of the Calvinist view on eternal destiny.

It's a secret Calvinist Society rule that posts in favor of Calvinism must be written at the 37th grade level or higher. Woody likes to go above and the beyond the requirements!

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[SNPete]

It's a secret Calvinist Society rule that posts in favor of Calvinism must be written at the 37th grade level or higher. Woody likes to go above and the beyond the requirements!

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Fortunately I possess a 38th grade education!

Seriously, my desire is to broaden my understanding of all of the views of the Body. I'll be honest. Understanding and agreeing are two separate issues. I am truly of the school of agreeing to disagree.



I have a sincere desire to understand the Calvinist view on eternal destiny. The Armenian view makes more sense to me, but I am open to the possibility of being wrong. Thus my desire to learn about the Calvinist view.



If nothing else, we are all bothers and sisters in Christ. I know for a fact that I am called by God to be in fellowship with Him. So I ask to be educated in Calvinism, to understand.



I do prefer the simple paraphrased view. I assume that whatever I am told is backed up by scripture (yes, please cite, but...), but give me the broad overview. I am a conceptual thinker and long detailed discourses cause be me to glaze over. Thanks

 

[Godzchild]

SNPete - I am trying to come to the same understanding of the calvanists position on this. I believe the same as you that we are chosen with the foreknowledge of us accepting or rejecting Christ.

 

[Jon_]

Fortunately I possess a 38th grade education!

I humbly bow before your amazing academic achievement.

Seriously, my desire is to broaden my understanding of all of the views of the Body. I'll be honest. Understanding and agreeing are two separate issues. I am truly of the school of agreeing to disagree.

I have a sincere desire to understand the Calvinist view on eternal destiny. The Armenian view makes more sense to me, but I am open to the possibility of being wrong. Thus my desire to learn about the Calvinist view.


If nothing else, we are all bothers and sisters in Christ. I know for a fact that I am called by God to be in fellowship with Him. So I ask to be educated in Calvinism, to understand.


I do prefer the simple paraphrased view. I assume that whatever I am told is backed up by scripture (yes, please cite, but...), but give me the broad overview. I am a conceptual thinker and long detailed discourses cause be me to glaze over. Thanks

I hear you. I think it is wonderful that you are earnestly seeking to understand the arguments of Calvinism. It is by these inquiries that God delivers us into his truth. First we are called, then we are taught. There are so many really great articles available on the main points of Calvinism, and I have never been one to reinvent the wheel. So I would refer you to this page:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

And suggest any of the articles written by James Boice, R.C. Sproul, or John Piper. There are articles by each of these men on that page. (I would just do a Find in your Internet browser. The list is extensive.)

I also would gladly volunteer to mail you one or both of the books that I have on the basic points of Calvinism. I have both The Doctrines of Grace, by James M. Boice and Philip Graham Ryken, and Why I Am Not an Arminian, by Robert A. Peterson and Michael D. Williams. I would be happy to do so at no cost to you, just your word that you would read them and pass them on when the opportunity presented itself.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

SNPete - I am trying to come to the same understanding of the calvanists position on this. I believe the same as you that we are chosen with the foreknowledge of us accepting or rejecting Christ.

Hi Godzchild. I would like to extend my book offer to you as well. If you would like either of them, or any book from this post:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1952494-book-exchange.html#post17532010

... I would be happy to send them to you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CCWoody]

I have a sincere desire to understand the Calvinist view on eternal destiny. The Armenian view makes more sense to me, but I am open to the possibility of being wrong. Thus my desire to learn about the Calvinist view.

Speaking of understanding....

How is your position different from the one I outlined? Strictly speaking, there really shouldn't be anything in it which should cause you much doctrinal grief. After all, I agree with you. God's Predestination of the ends of creation must be based upon his foreknowledge.

 

[SNPete]

Speaking of understanding....

How is your position different from the one I outlined? Strictly speaking, there really shouldn't be anything in it which should cause you much doctrinal grief. After all, I agree with you. God's Predestination of the ends of creation must be based upon his foreknowledge.

Actually, I do agree with your position.



However, but my explanation is a bit shorter and more conceptual. Based on John 3:14-18, Romans 8:29 and 10:9-13. I believe I am saying the same thing as you.



My explanation of how foreknowledge works:



1. God is not bound by time and space.

2. God knows how each of our lives will turn out and end-even before we were born.

3. God knows which of us will seek and establish a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. This is Foreknowledge.

4. By this foreknowledge, God predestines us to be His Elect.



Does this make me a four point Armenian?

 

[SNPete]

I humbly bow before your amazing academic achievement.

Seriously I only possess a BA in Pyschology


I hear you. I think it is wonderful that you are earnestly seeking to understand the arguments of Calvinism. It is by these inquiries that God delivers us into his truth. First we are called, then we are taught. There are so many really great articles available on the main points of Calvinism, and I have never been one to reinvent the wheel. So I would refer you to this page:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

And suggest any of the articles written by James Boice, R.C. Sproul, or John Piper. There are articles by each of these men on that page. (I would just do a Find in your Internet browser. The list is extensive.)

I also would gladly volunteer to mail you one or both of the books that I have on the basic points of Calvinism. I have both The Doctrines of Grace, by James M. Boice and Philip Graham Ryken, and Why I Am Not an Arminian, by Robert A. Peterson and Michael D. Williams. I would be happy to do so at no cost to you, just your word that you would read them and pass them on when the opportunity presented itself.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Thanks for the book offer, but at this time I am not sure if I would have the time to read those books. This is a busy time in my life.



But if you could give me 5 or 10 scriptures that support Calvinism, with a short interpretation for each I would be happy to study them. I will also visit the site you gave also.

 

[CCWoody]

1. God is not bound by time and space.

I'll hesistantly agree. It is not that I don't agree with the words. It is just that there are a great many people who turn time into a kind of dualistic entity.

2. God knows how each of our lives will turn out and end-even before we were born.

True. I believe it, not because I think that the Lord has merely looked through time to see the ends of creation, but that the Lord has chosen the ends of creation.

The Question is this, and this specifically: ON WHAT BASIS has God Foreknown those whom He would Predestine??

• The Answer given by some, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of their actions towards Him.
• The Answer given by others, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of His Own actions towards them.

I prefer the second answer. You see, if the Lord knows what I will do under any given circumstance then the Lord knows my actions before I make them in response to his actions. God knows how each life will turn out because he knows how he will act to cause a man to turn one way or the other.

3. God knows which of us will seek and establish a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. This is Foreknowledge.

God knows how a man will respond to grace. There cannot be any knowledge of a man seeking relationship without a prior act of God toward that man. For some men, God gives an amount of grace which will result in that man seeking the Lord. For other's God gives an amount of grace which will not result in that man seeking the Lord. Since the Lord is free to dispence grace as he desires, the preceeding bestowal of Grace determines which men will seek for God and which will not, just as Matthew testifies to us.

4. By this foreknowledge, God predestines us to be His Elect.

The Question is this, and this specifically: ON WHAT BASIS has God Foreknown those whom He would Predestine??

• The Answer given by some, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of their actions towards Him.
• The Answer given by others, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of His Own actions towards them.

I do not believe the former is logically or even Scripturally defendable. And, it isn't even in the language of Romans 8:28. Those whom He did foreknow. The passage indicates that the Lord had prior knowledge of people, not their actions. If the Lord had prior knowledge of their actions towards him without his prior acts of grace on their behalf, then this scripture would be false:

Rom 3:10-12 GB
(10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one.
(11) There is none that vnderstandeth: there is none that seeketh God.
(12) They haue all gone out of the way: they haue bene made altogether vnprofitable: there is none that doeth good, no not one.

 

[SNPete]

I'll hesistantly agree. It is not that I don't agree with the words. It is just that there are a great many people who turn time into a kind of dualistic entity.



True. I believe it, not because I think that the Lord has merely looked through time to see the ends of creation, but that the Lord has chosen the ends of creation.

The Question is this, and this specifically: ON WHAT BASIS has God Foreknown those whom He would Predestine??

• The Answer given by some, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of their actions towards Him.
• The Answer given by others, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of His Own actions towards them.

I prefer the second answer. You see, if the Lord knows what I will do under any given circumstance then the Lord knows my actions before I make them in response to his actions. God knows how each life will turn out because he knows how he will act to cause a man to turn one way or the other.



God knows how a man will respond to grace. There cannot be any knowledge of a man seeking relationship without a prior act of God toward that man. For some men, God gives an amount of grace which will result in that man seeking the Lord. For other's God gives an amount of grace which will not result in that man seeking the Lord. Since the Lord is free to dispence grace as he desires, the preceeding bestowal of Grace determines which men will seek for God and which will not, just as Matthew testifies to us.



The Question is this, and this specifically: ON WHAT BASIS has God Foreknown those whom He would Predestine??

• The Answer given by some, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of their actions towards Him.
• The Answer given by others, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of His Own actions towards them.

I do not believe the former is logically or even Scripturally defendable. And, it isn't even in the language of Romans 8:28. Those whom He did foreknow. The passage indicates that the Lord had prior knowledge of people, not their actions. If the Lord had prior knowledge of their actions towards him without his prior acts of grace on their behalf, then this scripture would be false:

Rom 3:10-12 GB
(10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one.
(11) There is none that vnderstandeth: there is none that seeketh God.
(12) They haue all gone out of the way: they haue bene made altogether vnprofitable: there is none that doeth good, no not one.

I see your point.

However, it does appear that you allow a measure of free will in your argument.


My observation is that sadly most people are either disinterested or hostile towards God. I believe this is a matter of personal choice aka freewill.

 

[CCWoody]

I see your point.

However, it does appear that you allow a measure of free will in your argument.


My observation is that sadly most people are either disinterested or hostile towards God. I believe this is a matter of personal choice aka freewill.

Of course it is a matter of personal choice that they are hostile towards God. I agree with that. I simply deny that they will turn from their hostility or disinterest without any prior act of grace from the Lord. I believe that this is the meaning of this verse (among many):

Rom 4:5 GB
(5) But to him that worketh not, but beleeueth in him that iustifieth the vngodly, his faith is counted for righteousnesse.

I note that the Greek seems to give the sense that these ungodly are irreverent, impious or wicked. And the verse says that the Lord justifies them while they are in this state. I conclude that the declaration of their justification cannot be of anything that they have done (it is not of him that works), for how can they be called irreverent if they are honoring the Lord through belief, but that God's justification is forensic in nature and merely the first of graces bestowed which will cause them to believe.