Freemasons

[duane washum]

On Roman Catholicism and Freemasonry in 1738 | DavidLGray.INFO

There is another reason so many denominations are opposed to Freemasonry. Church Doctrine vs. Masonic Doctrine concerning God:

"We believe that there is but one true and living God; maker of heaven and earth and all that is in them; the Alpha and Omega, who ever was, and is and shall be, time without end, Amen; that He is infinitely holy, mighty, tender, loving and glorious; worthy of all possible love and honor, confidence and obedience, majesty, dominion and might, both now and forever, and that in the unity of the Godhead there are three, equal in every divine perfection executing distinct but harmonious offices in the great work of redemption." (International Church of the Foursquare Gospel)

"There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being." (Southern Baptist Convention)

"On the basis of the Holy Scriptures we teach the sublime article of the Holy Trinity; that is, we teach that the one true God, Deut. 6:4; 1 Cor. 8:4, is the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, three distinct persons, but of one and the same divine essence, equal in power, equal in eternity, equal in majesty, because each person possesses the one divine essence entire, Col. 2:9, Matt. 28:19. We hold that all teachers and communions that deny the doctrine of the Holy Trinity are outside the pale of the Christian Church. The Triune God is the God who is gracious to man, John 3:16-18, 1 Cor. 12:3. Since the Fall, no man can believe in the "fatherhood" of God except he believe in the eternal Son of God, who became man and reconciled us to God by His vicarious satisfaction, 1 John 2:23; John 14:6. Hence we warn against Unitarianism, which in our country has to a great extent impenetrated the sects and is being spread particularly also through the influence of the lodges." (Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod)

"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." (United Methodist Church)

On the other hand, Freemasonry says:
From the Grand Lodge of Indiana:
"Great Architect of the Universe. Sometimes the abbreviation is considered to mean Grand Architect; also Grand or Great Artificer of the Universe.
"In any event, these are titles under which Freemasonry refers to Deity. One fundamental of Freemasonry is its non-sectarian character. Any man may offer his devotions to the Deity he reveres, under the Masonic title, no matter what name he may use in his religious worship.
"Thus, Great Architect of the Universe (or any of its variations) is a symbol of Deity as named and worshipped in all religions." ('Mentor's Manual' - Indiana)

From the Grand Lodge of Nevada:
"Great Architect or Grand or Great Artificer of the Universe (G.A.O.T.U.) are titles under which Freemasonry refers to Deity. A fundamental of Freemasonry is its nonsectarian character. Any man of any religion may offer his devotions to the deity he reveres, under the Masonic title, no matter what name he uses in his mind. Great Architect of the Universe (or any of its variations) is a symbol of Deity as named and worshiped in all religions." ('Officers Manual of Lodge Organization and Operation' - Grand Lodge of Nevada)

To sum it up: Since membership in the Masonic Order is open to men of all religions, this would necessarily constitute the spirit of the "GAOTU" of Freemasonry, being the same as the spirit of the gods of the Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, and other religions of the world today, as well as the spirits of the gods of the Mystery Religions that Masonry admits a relation to.

 

[Simpleman25]

It might do you some good to actually read the article. Your comments don't reflect the article.

As well, it should be noted how you've misrepresented or misinterpreted the intention of the Masonic guidelines.

There is no such as a 'spirit' called "GAUTO". GAUTO means different things depending on your faith. Do we allow members of different faiths? That would depend on where you live. In the U.S., non Christian membership in Freemasonry has been estimated at less than 3%.

Personally, I have met just one non Christian mason in the U.S. He is a Muslim living in New Jersey. BTW, he took his obligations with the bible on the alter.

In conclusion, just 1 out of the tens of thousands of masons I've met was not a Christian.

Copy and paste all the manuals you want. Real world experience trumps anything you believe is happening.

 

[duane washum]

Simpleman25;66355341]It might do you some good to actually read the article. Your comments don't reflect the article.

Please excuse me if I seem to be somewhat confused. Are you actually defending the same article I read. If you are, would you explain to me what the opening remarks about the article actually mean? Here they are:
"This paper will explore the purpose and motives behind (the)first historical document of the Roman Catholic Church on Freemasonry that would end up shaping the language and position of all future statements of the Church against Masonic order and all similar associations."

As well, it should be noted how you've misrepresented or misinterpreted the intention of the Masonic guidelines.

Please explain precisely where it is that you claim I have misrepresented or misinterpreted any of the official statements made by the various Grand Lodges that I cited? And in doing so, would you please use official Grand Lodge documents for your source materials, as opposed to you own personal opinion?

There is no such as a 'spirit' called "GAUTO". GAUTO means different things depending on your faith. Do we allow members of different faiths? That would depend on where you live. In the U.S., non Christian membership in Freemasonry has been estimated at less than 3%.

I believe you intended to write "GAOTU"; at least, those are the initials the Grand Lodges use.

Personally, I have met just one non Christian mason in the U.S. He is a Muslim living in New Jersey. BTW, he took his obligations with the bible on the alter.

I don't try to rely on the accuracy, or the inaccuracy of any individuals. I prefer to quote from official Grand Lodge documents. They're pretty straightforward, and since they are documents that have been officially approved by the Grand Lodges, I tend to give statements from those documents a higher degree of credibility as to what said Grand Lodges actually say and mean. I have met a professing atheist who was a Blue Lodge Mason, and he also took his obligation on the Holy Bible. Grand Lodges don't care which "Volume of Sacred Law" a person takes his obligations on, since, in their own words, all the Bible is as far as Freemasonry is concerned, is a book that represents all the religious books of all the religions of the world.

In conclusion, just 1 out of the tens of thousands of masons I've met was not a Christian.

I was not referring to the Masons you have met. I was referencing Grand Lodge documents, since the Grand Lodge in any jurisdiction is its official voice.

Copy and paste all the manuals you want. Real world experience trumps anything you believe is happening.

Actually, I have quoted from Grand Lodges, and in Freemasonry, the Grand Lodges trump whatever any individual Mason might have to say on the subject.

 

[Simpleman25]

Wrong again. I've proven to you numerous times that while grand lodge documents are important, they are rarely followed word for word. You should know that if you were truly a mason at some point.

No, copied words do not override real life experiences. Never have and never will.

The rules in masonry can be compared to speed limit rules. Some places strictly follow the law. While in other areas, 5 miles over is acceptable. Both locations have the same state or grand lodge rules, yet they are not always followed step for step.

That's another area where guys like you fail miserably. You fail to take into account the human aspect of freemasonry.

Not everyone adheres to every rule, law, or guideline. We all interpret things differently.

Heck, even we Christians can't always agree on what the bible says.

 

[duane washum]

I'm still waiting for your response to my post above, which begins with:

It might do you some good to actually read the article. Your comments don't reflect the article.

,
in response to which my question was:

Please excuse me if I seem to be somewhat confused. Are you actually defending the same article I read. If you are, would you explain to me what the opening remarks about the article actually mean? Here they are:
"This paper will explore the purpose and motives behind (the)first historical document of the Roman Catholic Church on Freemasonry that would end up shaping the language and position of all future statements of the Church against Masonic order and all similar associations."

You had indicated that you were very pleased with the article; you later suggested that I should read the article, which I did. And that was the basis for the above, which you have so far avoided remarking on. And while I am waiting for you rresponse to the above, here is the conclusion of Mr. Gray's article on Roman Catholicism and Freemasonry, which is quite telling:

"For next three centuries the Catholic Church would continue follow these findings of Pope Clement XII and reaffirm her perspicuous positions against Freemasonry; most especially in regards to the charge of Freemasonry having a plotting indifferentism towards all monotheistic religions; particularly towards the true faith of Catholicism."

You stated that you liked his approach to the subject. Do you also agree with his findings?

 

[Skip Sampson]

I've proven to you numerous times that while grand lodge documents are important, they are rarely followed word for word.

Did your Worshipful Master swear to uphold the laws, by laws and regulations of the GL when he was sworn in? If so, does he agree with your comments?

The real issue is how embarrassed Masons are in having to defend the GL positions. That is why you have taken that intellectually unsustainable position. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Simpleman25]

Every WM that has served our lodge has taken that oath. Myself included on more than one occasion.

Again I'll state that someone who's never been involved in lodge can't stand by the claims you continue to make. Are you stating GL documents? Sure. Does every rule or law in society get followed to the exact nature of said rule? No chance. Why do you hold us toa higher degree than other members of society?

Please stop sidestepping this point. You've done that on more than one occasion. Explain to me why you expect masons to follow every rule? We are no better than any other group in history. Why the continued persecution?

As Christians we know not everyone claiming to be Christian follows the exact same path. Yet they are still considered Christian.

 

[duane washum]

Simpleman,

Glad to see you are still participating. Does this mean you will respond to my last post that was directed to you?

 

[Simpleman25]

Possibly. I'm currently considering my response.

 

[duane washum]

Perhaps you misunderstood the article??

 

[Simpleman25]

I understood it quite well. I'm very familiar with his writing style, comprehension isn't an issue.

What I didn't say was that I agree with everything he said.

 

[Simpleman25]

I understood it quite well. I'm very familiar with his writing style, comprehension isn't an issue.

What I didn't say was that I agree with everything he said.

 

[duane washum]

Oh,okay, I see.

Oh, okay, I see.

Just one problem, however. What you now say doesn't line up with what you posted up with earlier:

It might do you some good to actually read the article. Your comments don't reflect the article.

My comments on this thread and elsewhere, are very much in accord with the article. Yours are not.

 

[Simpleman25]

Never miss a chance to attempt to throw a barb do you? Its kind of sad really.

It seems you are beginning to confuse threads again. Not sure why, although I have my own thoughts on that subject.

Your comments didn't reflect on his article very well at all. If you believe it did, then so be it.

Is it me or are you becoming more and more pedantic?

 

[duane washum]

Nothing wrong in parsing someone's statements. Usually allows for a much clearer understanding of what a person writes.

I'm sorry if that is a concern of yours about what you write. I have no control over that. I can only go by what I see in print. You will have to go elsewhere to get an answer to your question.

In the meantime, the only logical conclusion is that you didn't read the article, or that you read it but didn't understand it.

 

[Simpleman25]

Is that understand or understanding? Never mind.

I'm going to jump off your merry go round about right here.

 

[duane washum]

Good idea.