Freemasonry

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

qu

ote=Albion;That's clever. If I do the very best job I can in order to answer what I'm asked, it's called self-serving. But if I didn't answer as specifically as I've tried...why then, I'd have something to hide, I suppose. The Conspiracy Club can't lose!

Not with you on the other side, telling us religious symbolism is mere stnecraft when it is incorporated into architecture. If that is your best, then the self-blinding "Everything Is As It Seems Club" can't win.

Of course not. Did you miss all that I said about intellectual development, moral or ethical considerations? The Middle Ages was deeply religious, so OF COURSE the cathedral builders used religious symbolism. What a revelation that must be to you.

What is revealed to me is your willingness to accept the "official version" of reality. If an official tells you the Emperor is wearing clothes the simple-minded can't see, you believe it, but refuse the truth of what that means about your mind.

That, however, was not what I was asked to answer. And if you are thinking in particular about the infamous Egyptian imagery, how would you suggest replicating an ancient Egyptian ediface WITHOUT any of the images that are stock in trade with these structures? Sheesh.

Sheesh is NOT asking what business a Christian nation has replicating these edifaces that have pagan religious symbology as their "stock-in-trade".

Good grief. Get the aluminum hats out, boys. The lizard people are taking over the banking system--all in the name of the Shriners, of course.

The icing on the cake - derision. Great form, Albion.
When insanity becomes the norm, sane people are locked up for the good of everyone.

Rev Randy · Apr 9, 2013

Albion said:
People who admit to having no personal experience with Masonry and, therefore, no knowledge of what goes on there, would do well not to go out on a limb with guesswork. I have seen so much nonsense and lies about Masonry that it almost makes one WANT to join such an organization in the belief that, if this is what it is accused of without reason or facts, it must be doing good. And the idea that no Christian should belong to ANY organization except the church sure rings hollow when it's posted by a member of an online discussion club!

I agree that I know almost nothing of what goes on in Masonry. I also do not believe we can't be a part of things outside the Church. I would pray that the Christians within Masonry are spreading the gospel within Masonry. I do know that the majority in the local Lodge are professing Christians.
My point was simple. If those who belong are in it for the sole purpose of Charity or fellowship, they can find that in the Church. If there are other reasons, the Church may not provide those reasons.
My only issue with Masonry is the secrecy and even that seems to be waning with the Masons. It's just a club and I have no issue with clubs. Now if there's more to it, I could have issues. But I know of nothing except that some conspiracy folks seem to make much of little things. I once heard it said that the upsidedown cross on the Pope's seat was satanic. That was a good laugh as it's the symbol of St. Peter.
Now I can't say I've ever met a cleric Catholic or Orthodox Mason. Perhaps it's a Protestant thing? We tend to shy away from secret societies. But to each his own. It's the oath I would have trouble with but I may be making more of it than it says. I do not avoid the BBQ dinners they sell so I'm not Masonphobic.

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

some conspiracy folks seem to make much of little things

Some willfully blind people seem to overlook a preponderance of circumstantial evidence.

Rev Randy · Apr 9, 2013

Rick Otto said:
Some willfully blind people seem to overlook a preponderance of circumstantial evidence.

And some just don't care to find fault about things we know little about.

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

Rev Randy said:
And some just don't care to find fault about things we know little about.

And for the leaders & members of these huge things we know so little about, no fault perceived is no fault achieved.

yeshuasavedme · Apr 9, 2013

Rev Randy said:
I do know that the majority in the local Lodge are professing Christians.
.

Who told you that?
Please look at the Shriners Temple/Mosque in Springfield Missouri and the declaration written in Arabic on it's two domes that claims "there is no god but Allah".
That is blasphemy. How can a "christian" partake of the table of idols, as Paul asked?

Blasphemy in the Bible Belt written on Shriners' building in Springfield, Missouri: No god but Allah! By Pat Franklin.

The cornerstone of the building says: Abou Ben Adhem Shrine Mosque A.A.O.N.M.S. 1922.

Arabic writing below the dome says: 'No god but Allah'.

...Shriners are Freemasons who take an oath on the Koran, the Islamic bible which says that Jesus is not God or the Son or God, did not die on the cross, was not buried, and did not rise from the dead; yet they consider themselves Christians....
Pictures: Copyright Banner Publishing, reproduction can be done for non-commercial ventures.

[/quote
It is called "the shrine mosque" This is blasphemy for a Christian to be associated with.
]
The Abou Ben Adhem (May his tribe increase!) Shrine Mosque was built in 1923 and was hailed as the largest auditorium west of the Mississippi. It is one of Springfields most recognizable buildings with its red brick walls and terracotta polychrome turrets.

The Saracenic, or Moorish, style of architecture was the design of Springfield architects Heckenlively and Mark. Two stained glass windows designed by Stanley Uthwatt depict a camel caravan.

Shrine History

Click to expand...

Criada · Apr 9, 2013

Mod Hat On

Just a reminder that the rules state:

Flaming and Harassment
● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members.
● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.
These rules apply to Freemasons as much as to any other member.

Mod Hat Off

americanvet · Apr 9, 2013

I would like to point out that Allah is the Arabic word for god. Ergo a Christian making that statement that Allah is God is professing a very Christian belief. It would be that same as saying Dio is God, Bod is God orBůh is God.

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

americanvet said:
I would like to point out that Allah is the Arabic word for god. Ergo a Christian making that statement that Allah is God is professing a very Christian belief. It would be that same as saying Dio is God, Bod is God orBůh is God.

Are you saying the Arabic word for god means the same as the Christian word for God?
It looks as if you are trying to divorce meaning from context.

yeshuasavedme · Apr 9, 2013

So the Masonic group, the Shriners take an oath on the Koran, swear to the god of Mohammed, and write on their temple/Mosque, as pr the above picture of it, in Springfield Missouri, "there is no god but allah"

If a Freemason takes an oath to the god of Mohammed and builds a building honoring allah and calling him the only god, how is that "Christian"?

According to the Word of God, that is blasphemy, and according to the Word of God, that brings the curse of God upon the generations of the one doing it, to the fourth generation.

YHWH is the name of the One True God, and Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and YHWH come in flesh.
The Koran on which Freemason Shriners take an oath to the god of Mohammed says that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God.
On CF, I think that is a requirement for posting in the Christian Forums, is it not?

Allah of Mohammed is not God, and YHWH does not share His glory with anyone, and Jesus Christ is the Glory of God in His very Person, and the Son of God.

yeshuasavedme · Apr 9, 2013

americanvet said:
I would like to point out that Allah is the Arabic word for god. Ergo a Christian making that statement that Allah is God is professing a very Christian belief. It would be that same as saying Dio is God, Bod is God orBůh is God.

YHWH is the God of the Jews, and Jesus Chirst come in flesh is YHWH in flesh, and the Son of God, and the god of Mohammed -as in the Koran which is used to take an oath on by Freemason Shriners- is not God.
To take an oath on the Koran is blasphemy.

americanvet · Apr 9, 2013

I've never taken an oath on the Koran, nor am I a Shriner. I am just making an observation regarding the word Allah just is the Arabic word for God.

americanvet · Apr 9, 2013

Rick Otto said:
Are you saying the Arabic word for god means the same as the Christian word for God?
It looks as if you are trying to divorce meaning from context.

There is no Christian word for God since there is no separate Christian language.

Rick Otto · Apr 9, 2013

americanvet said:
There is no Christian word for God since there is no separate Christian language.

So then how do Christian Arabs differenMuslims profess to believe in?tiate between the God they profess to believe in from the god
I thought "God" is the Christian word for God.
And that "god" is the Christian word for Allah.

yeshuasavedme · Apr 9, 2013

Rick Otto said:
So then how do Christian Arabs differenMuslims profess to believe in?tiate between the God they profess to believe in from the god
I thought "God" is the Christian word for God.
And that "god" is the Christian word for Allah.

One thing for sure is the US is not an Arabic speaking nation, and to carve there is no god but allah on a Temple/Mosque is blasphemy in this nation -and probably would also be in any Christian nation, as the Name of the Creator is "YHWH", and the generic term "El" and Elohym is translated as "God".
The only reason some in Arabic Muslim nations use the word allah to transpose that name over YHWH in the Bible or over "Elohym" is to try to reach Muslims, not to identify with them, but the God of the Bible is not the God of the Koran, and the only nations that are blessed is those whose God is "YHWH".

God who is YHWH is not pleased, because ancient Israel did the same, in calling YHWH "Baal", and mixing the pure religion with the evil practices of the nations around them....why, even right out of Egypt, they made a golden calf after the idols of Egypt and called it "God" -but YHWH made an example of those for all peoples ever after to take heed of....they were mostly slain.

The God of Isaac, Abraham, and Israel is the one true God, and His name is YHWH, not allah.
In Hebrew, alah אָלָה[the root of Allah] means "to curse, an oath, to bind oneself by an oath"
from the blb.org concordance.

Rev Randy · Apr 9, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
Who told you that?

At least twenty local Masons who I know personally. Many masons profess Christ. At least two here. When someone tells me they love Jesus and confess him, I simply take them at their word.
I once wore a yarmulke (little jewish beanie) at a family members wedding. Does that make me Jewish or of Jewish belief?
That a Mason belongs to something I disagree with does not mean they are not Christian. But I never joined a labor union either because I don't believe in them either. Yet many Christians do.
As long as their respective Churches do not forbid them, it's their choice. So unless one is Roman Catholic or Orthodox, I suppose it matters little. Now if one is Roman or Orthodox and join Masonry, they are violating the teachings of the Church. We (the Orthodox)just view it as a silly collection of rituals. But we do not allow the joining of secret societies. What they do in secret isn't our issue.
I also serve one who built a temple. But my builder only took three days.

Simpleman25 · Apr 10, 2013

Lots of interesting postings since my last visit.

For the record, when I became a member of the Shrine, there was no Koran there. There was my personal bible, but no Koran.

As time permits I will comment on some of the postings. In particular those that display the most errors.

Feel free to continue to ask me anything you want to know.

yeshuasavedme · Apr 10, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
Lots of interesting postings since my last visit.

For the record, when I became a member of the Shrine, there was no Koran there. There was my personal bible, but no Koran.

As time permits I will comment on some of the postings. In particular those that display the most errors.

Feel free to continue to ask me anything you want to know.

Is this book a lie? Is this Shriners initiation a lie?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mystic-Shrine-Illustrated-Ritual/dp/116256332X#reader_116256332X
On page 23, who is the prophet?

page 20 states:
Priest: There are Moslems among us; but those who swerve from truth and justice shall merit and reap abundance of chastisement.
Gong, music, verse.
Grand Potentate ---
--Sons of the Desert, you have advanced through the preliminary ceremonies of the Nobility of the Mystic Shrine, as far as it is possible, unobligated. Before advancing further in our course you will be required to assume a most powerful and binding oath, inseparably uniting yourself with us, and when once taken it can never be retracted or departed from. ...

Page 21
initiation
obligation
"______, of my voluntary desire, uninfluenced and of free accord, do here assume, without reserve, the Obligation of the Nobility of the Mystic Shrine, as did the elect of the Temple of Mecca, the Moslem and the Mohammedan. I do hereby, upon this Bible, and on the mysterious legend of the Koran, and its dedication to the Mohammedan faith, promise and swear and vow on the faith and honor of an upright man, come weal or woe, adversity or success, that I will never reveal....

page 23
.....with a three edged blade, my feet flayed and I be forced to walk the hot sands upon the sterile shores of the Red Sea until the flaming sun shall strike me with livid plague, and may Allah, the god of Arab, Moslem and Mohammedan, the god of our fathers, support me to the entire fulfillment of the same, Amen...[repeated three times]....

Priest ---"Our Oriental will now conduct the Sons of the Desert to our purifying cavern in the South. It is the fountain of Mecca....

...having thus far passed the ceremonies of our order; bear bravely up to the Moslem test and prove your infidelity to our cause.

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 10, 2013

Rev Randy said:
At least twenty local Masons who I know personally. Many masons profess Christ. At least two here. When someone tells me they love Jesus and confess him, I simply take them at their word.
I once wore a yarmulke (little jewish beanie) at a family members wedding. Does that make me Jewish or of Jewish belief?
That a Mason belongs to something I disagree with does not mean they are not Christian. But I never joined a labor union either because I don't believe in them either. Yet many Christians do.

This is all well and good, as long as a line between the dress-up and play acting and one's faith in Christ do not begin to become blurred or confounded. BTW, a friend of mine was a Jewish Funeral Director. When I visited his place of buisiness, I wore (and was expected to wear) a yarmulke out of respect for their belief and practice.

As long as their respective Churches do not forbid them, it's their choice. So unless one is Roman Catholic or Orthodox, I suppose it matters little. Now if one is Roman or Orthodox and join Masonry, they are violating the teachings of the Church. We (the Orthodox)just view it as a silly collection of rituals. But we do not allow the joining of secret societies.

Confessional Lutherans do not allow it either.

What they do in secret isn't our issue.

If we knew the secrets we might have issues.

I also serve one who built a temple. But my builder only took three days.

Me too!

Albion · Apr 10, 2013

MarkRohfrietsch said:
This is all well and good, as long as a line between the dress-up and play acting and one's faith in Christ do not begin to become blurred or confounded.

In theory, that's right. The problem is that there are plenty of folks who will not take the truth for an answer.

Being religious extremists themselves, they demand that everyone meet their fantastic, personal demands...or else you're not a Christian to them. No, it is not necessary to wear your hair a certain way (or you're not a real Christian). And no, it's not the case that if you say a prayer the same way the the Roman Catholic Church might (then you're working for the anti-Christ). And no, all the gossip about Masonry derived from uninformed conspiracy nuts is not true, but you can't tell these folks that. So the barrage of false charges goes on, keeping the gossipers feeling good about themselves.

Perhaps the most discouraging thing is that other people, normally sensible ones, put their usual good judgment and sense of fairness aside when they read all these titilating theories again and again and again, even when it's been disproved again and again and again...and give the fiction the benefit of the doubt.

Freemasonry

The Dude Abides

Sometimes I pretend to be normal

The Dude Abides

Sometimes I pretend to be normal

The Dude Abides

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Saved Sinner

The Dude Abides

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Saved Sinner

Saved Sinner

The Dude Abides

Senior Veteran

Sometimes I pretend to be normal

Member

Senior Veteran

Unapologetic Apologist

Facilitator

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency