Freedom From Sin?

[Ioustinos]

Hi folks!


The Scriptures tell us that once we are saved by Jesus Christ we die to sin and are freed from the bonds of sin. Since we still struggle against sin and the flesh (Romans 7), I would like to know what exactly does it mean to die to sin and to be freed from the bondage of sin?


Thanks


Justin

 

[JJB]

Hi folks!


The Scriptures tell us that once we are saved by Jesus Christ we die to sin and are freed from the bonds of sin. Since we still struggle against sin and the flesh (Romans 7), I would like to know what exactly does it mean to die to sin and to be freed from the bondage of sin?


Thanks


Justin

Free from the condemnation that comes with sin. Jesus' work on the cross is done.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Hi folks!


The Scriptures tell us that once we are saved by Jesus Christ we die to sin and are freed from the bonds of sin. Since we still struggle against sin and the flesh (Romans 7), I would like to know what exactly does it mean to die to sin and to be freed from the bondage of sin?


Thanks


Justin

Jesaiah-- For all who truly believe, there is an immediate breaking of the bonds of iniquity. Jesus came to save His people from their sin, and the process of sanctification begins immediately upon regeneration. That does not mean immediate perfection. "There is no man that sinneth not." but it does mean that sin can no longer reign over the believer. The believer enters into a new awareness of his/her shortcomings, despises them, and struggles to be increasingly more like Christ--to be conformed to His image. The apostle Paul spoke of his own struggle in Phil. chapter 4.

John spoke of this new freedom from sin in 1 John chapter 3. When he says that he who is born of God cannot sin, the meaning in the greek is that he cannot continue in sin as a lifestyle. He is not perfect, but he does not continue in sin. David sinned terribly, but David repented and corrected his course. Adultery and murder were contrary to his character as a child of God. What the believer can be confident of is progress. Enemies of God will point out his failures. Just as satan accuses the brethren, so the children of satan will do the works of satan their father and be ready to accuse. Nevertheless, the believer says, "Rejoice not over me, oh mine enmy. When I fall, I will arise. When I sit in darkness, the LORD will be a light to me." Remember--"The path of the just is as a shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." and "He that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger." ital. mine.

 

[Ioustinos]

Thanks for the answers guys


I understand that we are now free from the condemnation of our sins and that as Christians we are no longer dominated by sin. It is not longer our master. But I just still had some difficulty understanding the idea of being dead to sin.

 

[ClementofRome]

GK Beale (reformed) has edited a book called "The Right Doctrine From the Wrong Text" that comes to mind when I read the OP. I understand that the classical reformed interp of Romans 7 is that of a post-conversion Christian struggling with sin, but I have come to the opinion (as have many others, conservative and otherwise) that Romans 7 is not discussing a post-conversion state, but is discussing the struggle of a pre-conversion state that is faced with the Law and is totally wanting to keep the Law, and is yet unable to keep the Law and finds himself between a rock and a hard place. Paul is echoing the Jewish struggle with "law keeping." That is why he cries out at the end of the chapter, "Who can save me from this body of sin?"....then a pregnant pause.....JESUS CHRIST, for crying out loud!

Sorry to high-jack the thread, but I just thought I would bring up the point that there are many a good reformed scholar who disagrees with the classical interpretation.

Blessings to you all!

 

[Ioustinos]

GK Beale (reformed) has edited a book called "The Right Doctrine From the Wrong Text" that comes to mind when I read the OP. I understand that the classical reformed interp of Romans 7 is that of a post-conversion Christian struggling with sin, but I have come to the opinion (as have many others, conservative and otherwise) that Romans 7 is not discussing a post-conversion state, but is discussing the struggle of a pre-conversion state that is faced with the Law and is totally wanting to keep the Law, and is yet unable to keep the Law and finds himself between a rock and a hard place. Paul is echoing the Jewish struggle with "law keeping." That is why he cries out at the end of the chapter, "Who can save me from this body of sin?"....then a pregnant pause.....JESUS CHRIST, for crying out loud!

Sorry to high-jack the thread, but I just thought I would bring up the point that there are many a good reformed scholar who disagrees with the classical interpretation.

Blessings to you all!

I understand that there are theologians that see Romans 7 as pre-conversion but I have questions about that interpretation.

If Romans 7 is a pre-conversion depiction, how is this idea reconciled with the doctrine of the depravity of man? In that by nature we rebell against the law. It is my understanding that man does not seek to do good on his own (Romans 3:9-20).

I have come to understand Romans 7, as you most likely know, to depict the struggle of the Christian to live a holy life, pleasing unto God. The Christian desires to follow completely in the ways of the Lord but he struggles as he remains in the flesh (Paul speaks of us desiring to put off this old flesh and take upon us our glorified bodies in 1 Corinthians 5:1-6). Yet the good news comes in Romans 8:1, that because of Christ Jesus' life, death and resurrection we are not condemned.

I am interested in hearing the pre-conversion view


Justin

 

[ClementofRome]

I understand that there are theologians that see Romans 7 as pre-conversion but I have questions about that interpretation.

If Romans 7 is a pre-conversion depiction, how is this idea reconciled with the doctrine of the depravity of man? In that by nature we rebell against the law. It is my understanding that man does not seek to do good on his own (Romans 3:9-20).

I have come to understand Romans 7, as you most likely know, to depict the struggle of the Christian to live a holy life, pleasing unto God. The Christian desires to follow completely in the ways of the Lord but he struggles as he remains in the flesh (Paul speaks of us desiring to put off this old flesh and take upon us our glorified bodies in 1 Corinthians 5:1-6). Yet the good news comes in Romans 8:1, that because of Christ Jesus' life, death and resurrection we are not condemned.

I am interested in hearing the pre-conversion view


Justin

Thanks Justin. Here is a very brief take on my position:

First, remove the chapter and verse references or the paragraph breaks that some study Bibles place as points of reference from your purview ….these can be confusing.

Point #1: The entire previous context, chapters 6:1-7:13 deals with the distinction between the old man and the new man (Adam and Christ). The argument goes back and forth between the two, rejecting the former and praising the latter. Each time the argument changes gears with a question like “may we sin so that grace abound?…Heck no.” The immediate context leading right up to the pericope in question is dealing with the death and bondage that the “old man” faces. In fact, in 7:14, Paul says “…but I am of flesh (sarx), sold into bondage to sin.”

Now does this sound like a post-conversion condition? No, he says earlier that the old man is in bondage to sin, but that the Christian is freed from that bondage. Verse 15 begins the “classic” interpretation, which totally ignores the previous context, not to mention the immediate context of v. 14. In fact, verses 15-24 are a commentary or an expansion of verse 14. Yes, he is using first person, but it is an emphatic “ego emi” (I am) as he stresses the pre-conversion condition of being in bondage to sin. One simply cannot ignore the importance of v. 14 in the interpretation of vv. 15-24.

Point #2: SARX (flesh). The term flesh is typically not a post-conversion term. It is a bound by sin, pre-conversion term. It is fun to run a word study in the Greek text on “sarx” to see how it is used.

Point #3: verse 24 is the culmination of the lengthy rant on being in bondage to sin which started in the previous pericope. Would a man who has been made righteous by faith in Christ, scream, "WRETCHED MAN THAT I AM!" Martin Luther screamed this to himself for years until he came to a proper understanding of justification by faith apart from works of the Law. In fact, he would lie in the snow until almost frozen so as to punish himself for his wretched condition! When Paul has said in the previous context of ch 6 and 7a that the one who is freed from sin begins a state of sanctification, this is the bondage breaker.

With reference to your question about a Christian’s struggle with sin, we can turn to 1 John and see that yes, we still sin (1:8), but that we have an advocate with the Father in Jesus Christ. This is what I meant by “Right Doctrine From the Wrong Text.” Yes, I believe that we continue to struggle with sin, but we have to turn to other texts to support the doctrine,…..not Romans 7.

Thanks.
C of R

 

[Ioustinos]

I have a few follow up statements if I may

Point #1: The entire previous context, chapters 6:1-7:13 deals with the distinction between the old man and the new man (Adam and Christ). The argument goes back and forth between the two, rejecting the former and praising the latter. Each time the argument changes gears with a question like “may we sin so that grace abound?…Heck no.” The immediate context leading right up to the pericope in question is dealing with the death and bondage that the “old man” faces. In fact, in 7:14, Paul says “…but I am of flesh (sarx), sold into bondage to sin.”

Now does this sound like a post-conversion condition? No, he says earlier that the old man is in bondage to sin, but that the Christian is freed from that bondage. Verse 15 begins the “classic” interpretation, which totally ignores the previous context, not to mention the immediate context of v. 14. In fact, verses 15-24 are a commentary or an expansion of verse 14. Yes, he is using first person, but it is an emphatic “ego emi” (I am) as he stresses the pre-conversion condition of being in bondage to sin. One simply cannot ignore the importance of v. 14 in the interpretation of vv. 15-24.

Point #2: SARX (flesh). The term flesh is typically not a post-conversion term. It is a bound by sin, pre-conversion term. It is fun to run a word study in the Greek text on “sarx” to see how it is used.

Point #3: verse 24 is the culmination of the lengthy rant on being in bondage to sin which started in the previous pericope. Would a man who has been made righteous by faith in Christ, scream, "WRETCHED MAN THAT I AM!" When Paul has said in the previous context of ch 6 and 7a that the one who is freed from sin begins a state of sanctification, this is the bondage breaker.

With reference to your question about a Christian’s struggle with sin, we can turn to 1 John and see that yes, we still sin (1:8), but that we have an advocate with the Father in Jesus Christ. This is what I meant by “Right Doctrine From the Wrong Text.” Yes, I believe that we continue to struggle with sin, but we have to turn to other texts to support the doctrine,…..not Romans 7.

Thanks.
C of R

As I read Romans Chapters 5-7 I observe Paul speaking of us being freed from bondage from the power of sin, but there remains an "already/not yet" tension. In Romans 6:6 it states that our "old self died" with Christ (already) but we will not know the fullness of that death until we are united with Christ at the resurrection (not yet). Paul continues this thought in verse 8 of chapter 6.

Then Paul calls us to seek to do things pleasing to the Lord. Yet we are no longer bound to the Law but grace and because of this the things that we do now (the process of sanctification) are leading us to the point of eternal life. When before we were under the law and therefore were condemned to death because of our sin but now we have eternal life through Christ ( Chapters 6:22-23). Again in Chapter 7:6 Paul states that we serve in a new way; we are not under the law but now we are in obedience to the Spirit. With this in mind Paul reminds us that there is still that "already/not yet" tension. We have been set free from sin and we now follow after the Holy Spirit, yet we as Christians will still wrestle against the desires of the flesh because we will not know the fullness of our freedom until the reusurrection.

As the post-conversion view states, Chapter 7:14-25 is Paul describing this tension, this continued struggle with the old man. His heart is troubled and so what does he have to comfort him? He has the gospel (Romans 8:1) that proclaims he is no longer under condemnation. Then Paul states in Chapter 8 verses 9-11 that our bodies are dead to sin and our spirit is alive in Christ and our bodies will also be as our spirit at the resurrection.

Martin Luther screamed this to himself for years until he came to a proper understanding of justification by faith apart from works of the Law. In fact, he would lie in the snow until almost frozen so as to punish himself for his wretched condition!

I don't know much about Martin Luther but didn't he find solace in the fact that Christ fulfilled the Law on his behalf and died for his sins and not his own ability to be obdient? Wasn't it also Martin Luther that said "Sin Boldy"?


I also would still like to know how the pre-conversion view fits with the doctrine of total depravity. By that I mean how can the natural man desire that which is spiritual or good?

I will be the first to state that I am not an expert on Biblical doctrine. I am still learning and so I would enjoy reading your answers

Justin

 

[ClementofRome]

OK...my Martin Luther example was certainly not necessary to my argument.

I agree with everything you say in your assessment of 5-7... Yes the tension is there, but you must admit the back and forth between pre and post. I am happy to discuss the totality of biblical theology (your request for an explanation of human depravity) when you address my discussion of the importance of v 14 in light of v. 15-24. Let's not dis exegesis for sake of theology.

 

[Ioustinos]

I agree with everything you say in your assessment of 5-7... Yes the tension is there, but you must admit the back and forth between pre and post.

But I believe this is where we disagree . I do not see the back and forth between pre and post but rather a tension between the already and not yet. Just as Christ's kingdom has come it will not be completely fulfilled until the Second Coming, so too we are freed from sin but we will not know the full effect until the resurrection. Until then, though we have been freed from the power of sin (and it's results), we still struggle with sin because though our spirits have been quickend to the newness of life in Christ our physical bodies will not know that life in it's fullness until it is transformed at the resurrection.

I am happy to discuss the totality of biblical theology (your request for an explanation of human depravity) when you address my discussion of the importance of v 14 in light of v. 15-24. Let's not dis exegesis for sake of theology.

It is my understanding that you must interpret vs 14 in it's context. If I am understanding you correctly you are stating that vs 14 is interpreting vs 15-24, but I see the opposite. I see vs 15-24 as Paul expounding upon vs 14 and the previous verses. Notice how Paul goes into detail about his struggle and he states twice in vs 23-25 that his inner man seeks God and delights in him while his flesh remains sinful. Therefore if we take vs 14 in it's context we see Paul expounding upon his frustration that though his inner man is freed from sin his flesh still remains sinful, yet that is why he finds solace in Christ because though he sins he is not condemned and we have the hope of the resurrection. Verse 14 then is not to be isolated but to be understood and interpreted by the surrounding passages.

I am not bringing the depravity of man into the understanding of Chapter 7 from Calvinistic theology but rather from the context of the passage and in light of other Scriptures. In the first three chapters of Romans Paul describes the state of the natural man. I do not see in that description someone who struggles to love God and seek after him but rather I see God describing man as one who does not seek after him but rebels against him and his law. Paul states in Romans 7:22 that his inner man delights in God's law, but we know that the natural man is not only sinful in the flesh but his heart is also decietful and sinful. Therefore it is difficult for me to interpret Chapter 7 as a description of a pre-conversion person because how can a sinful heart seek God? From Pauls discussion in Chapter 7 he repeatedly depicts his heart or spirit as being freed from sin and as "good" in comparison to his flesh. I do not see this being compatible with the description of the natural man in the Scriptures like Genesis 6:5 that states "every inclination of the thoughts of his [man's] heart was only evil..." and other passages such as Ezekiel 36:26 where God states that he will give us "...a new heart and a new spirit..." and he will "...remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh". So I cannot agree that a pre-conversion person is able to say the things that Paul states in Romans 7.


God Bless


Justin

 

[ClementofRome]

Thanks for that response Justin.

We are in agreement that 15-24 is an exposition (interpretation) of v. 14. We seem to disagree on the condition of the person in v. 14. I see Paul discussing a pre-conversion person struggling to keep the law for salvation...a works based theology. "I know what the Law calls me to do, but dad-gummit, I can't keep it to save my life, much less my soul. Now I am really in a predicament." The non-Christian Jewish community, under the law, could not help themselves if they tried. This struggle that the pre-conversion man has is not a struggle to "love God" as you suggest, it is a struggle to hold to an ideal that was the Law. Sure, Moses had given them the Law and it is the ideal (Paul says it taught him was sin was)...as a Jew with a works based theology (0f course, forgetting that Abraham was saved by faith), the Law would have been seen as good. I hold to a Radical Depravity as opposed to a Total Depravity in that non-believers can actually do some good and recognize good when they see it, even if it is wrongly motivated. So, the pre-conversion Jew recognizes the goodness of God's law, but as a means of salvation for them, they fail. The "O Wretched man that I am" is the ultimate recognition on their part that they are complete failures at a works based salvation.

Now, back to v. 14...we seem to disagree on the interpretation of that verse as the basis for what follows. I do not see, in any way, how the statement in v.14 could possibly be the status of a Christian. He has just said in the previous chapter and 1/2 that Christians are NOT sold into bondage, but are freed. So, though I am a real fan of an already/not yet (realized, inaugurated) theology of the NT, I don't see it here. The Christian is not "sold into bondage to sin." That is some powerful language. Are you saying that sanctification (process..."not yet" fully realized) is what slowly releases the believer from this "bondage?" Or, is the believer released from "bondage" and freed at the moment of belief (already).

You just have to convince me that v. 14 is the status of a believer.

Great discussion. I am really enjoying it. Blessings to you Justin

 

[Ioustinos]

This struggle that the pre-conversion man has is not a struggle to "love God" as you suggest, it is a struggle to hold to an ideal that was the Law. Sure, Moses had given them the Law and it is the ideal (Paul says it taught him was sin was)...as a Jew with a works based theology (0f course, forgetting that Abraham was saved by faith), the Law would have been seen as good.

Ok....this statement helps me understand your view better. So I am assuming that the pre-conversion is seeking a works righteousness but realizes that he fails to keep the Law? The problem I have with this is that so many times we are Pharisees who believe we are able to keep the Law rather than repentant tax collectors.

I hold to a Radical Depravity as opposed to a Total Depravity in that non-believers can actually do some good and recognize good when they see it, even if it is wrongly motivated.

I believe that non-believers can do civil good but I am not sold on their ability to do spiritual good. Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement.

Now, back to v. 14...we seem to disagree on the interpretation of that verse as the basis for what follows. I do not see, in any way, how the statement in v.14 could possibly be the status of a Christian. He has just said in the previous chapter and 1/2 that Christians are NOT sold into bondage, but are freed. So, though I am a real fan of an already/not yet (realized, inaugurated) theology of the NT, I don't see it here. The Christian is not "sold into bondage to sin." That is some powerful language. Are you saying that sanctification (process..."not yet" fully realized) is what slowly releases the believer from this "bondage?" Or, is the believer released from "bondage" and freed at the moment of belief (already).

You just have to convince me that v. 14 is the status of a believer.

Verse 14 is a key verse and it is, at least to me, difficult to understand what Paul is trying to say here because of the immediate context. I use the surrounding verses such as vs 21-23 to help me understand vs. 14. And I understand it to describe the classic post-conversion view.

I see the freedom from sin as being freed from both it's power and it's results. We know live by the power of the Holy Spirit but at times fall into temptation and sin. It no longer controls us but we do wrestle against it for as long as we remain in this body until the resurrection. As far as the "already/not yet" tension I am stating that we do not see the full effects of that freedom until the resurrection. Our inward man has been freed, yet we still abide in sinful flesh. God begins the process of sanctification to conform us into the image of Christ, revealing to us that sin is no longer our master but the Holy Spirit who dwells within us. I also see sanctification as a promise of the resurrection and the fulfillment of that release from the bondage of sin. The more we are sanctified the more we are conformed into the image of Christ demonstrating two things: first that God is faithful in his promises in that we shall be changed and second that sin does not reign over us fully but rather we are under the reign of Christ.


I hope that makes sense. Do you know any books on this topic that I could add to my reading list? I won't be able to get to it anytime soon as fall semester begins in a week or so, but I always keep a wish list on amazon.com

God Bless

Justin