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Freedom and Legislating Morality

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The Bellman

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Most of us tend to take freedom for granted. "It's a free country," we say, and give little thought to what we actually mean. If pressed, most of us would probably talk about things like freedom of worship, freedom to go wherever you like, freedom to hold whatever job you like. And most of us would say that that's a good thing. We're in favour of freedom, and people will say that they'd fight for their freedom, or that people have died to give us freedom.

But what do we really mean by freedom in this context? Just how free are we? Am I free to kill someone with impunity? Am I free to drive my car at a hundred miles an hour down a busy road? Am I free to have sex with whomever takes my fancy, be they willing or no? Obviously, the answer is no. We don't have complete freedom; what we have is limited freedom. In other words, we are completely free to act as we want...within certain boundaries and with certain restrictions. There are innumerable things that we are not free to do. Yet we put up with these restrictions on our freedom, despite our liking for freedom itself. Why? The answer is obvious - because we understand, acknowledge and accept that we are all better off if some freedoms are restrained. We realise that all of us are better off if everyone is not free to kill with impunity. We realise that everybody is better off if people aren't free to drive at a hundred miles an hour down a busy street. So we accept that our freedom isn't all that free. Why, then, when we don't really have freedom, do nearly all of us advocate freedom, and why are so many of us prepared to die for it?

Exactly what are we free to do? What freedoms are we happy to have curtailed? A bit of thought yields the likely answer - nearly all of us are happy to accept that we aren't free to act in a way that will harm others. Sure, I'd be more free if I could drive at a hundred miles an hour down a busy street...but I don't mind in the least losing that freedom, because it's obvious that such an act would be highly likely to harm others. I don't mind my freedom being restricted in that way, if only because I don't want other people free do drive at a hundred miles an hour down a busy street when I might be crossing it. So when we talk about freedom as something we have and wish to preserve, we are really talking about the freedom to act as we like...provided we don't harm others.

A quick check of our laws will support this. Overall, the vast majority of our laws consist of restrictions to our freedom so that we are not allowed to act in a way that might harm others. We can't kill, steal, rape, assault at will, because all of those activities harm others. Other less obvious laws such as traffic regulations, commercial law, copyright law and so forth all have, at root, the same purpose - curtailing our freedom so that we do not harm others (and 'harm others' includes harming their property). Every so often a communal discussion arises about some particular behaviour and whether or not it should, in fact, be curtailed as likely to harm another. An example of this is the discussion some years ago about the practice of some Jehovah's Witnesses of refusing blood transfusions for their children. It was suggested that in this instance, the freedom of these Jehovah's witnesses to raise their children in the way they see fit (a freedom virtually all of us would rate as pretty important) should be curtailed because they were harming their children in refusing to accept blood transfusions for them. To my knowledge, the law was amended to deny Jehovah's Witnesses the freedom to raise their children in the way they see fit in that particular regard. We (as a society) decided to restrict their freedom in a particular way...because that way harmed others.

But, of course, there are other types of laws. Laws that restrict freedom even when the exercise of that freedom would not harm others - or, at least, would not harm others in an easily quantifiable way. It's easy to say what harm would be done by allowing people the freedom to kill with impunity; it's much harder to say what harm would be done (if any) by allowing people to have homosexual relationships. It is these laws, those which restrict freedom even though that freedom would not harm others in an easily quantifiable way, which are (generally) laws 'legislating morality'. This is a curious term, so let's examine it for a moment.

Obviously, all laws legislate morality. Most religions, for example, have an injunction against murder...and our laws against murder legislate and enforce that moral precept. Similarly with stealing, rape, assault and so forth. But for all of these laws, there is ample reason for their existence beyond any religious/moral precepts. We accept them as necessary, as discussed above, because we all agree that there are some freedoms society is better off without. What I mean by 'legislating morality' is the passing of laws which legislate morality, and exist for no other reason, and for the remainder of this post I'll use the term to mean those laws exclusively.

In other words, imagine that (magically) all religious and moral laws disappeared. Nothing is "wrong" in terms of morality; there is no penalty for any action beyond that which we choose to impose ourselves. Obviously, in such a circumstance, we would still want our freedom restricted in certain ways, to allow our society to survive. We'd still want laws against murder, and theft, and assault, and rape - because we acknowledge that with them, all of us are better off. The harm that could be done with impunity if those laws were not present is obvious and quantifiable. Now, if we look at any law in the light of such a situation...would we still want it to exist? Does it prevent some freedom that would harm others in an obvious and quantifiable way? If not, it's a pretty good bet that that particular law is actually 'legislating morality' - in other words, the only reason for its existence is to force everybody to act in a way that some person(s) think is moral.

So we have established that while freedom is something we all desire, we are happy to see that freedom restricted where it is in the interests of all of us. Yet laws which legislate morality don't do that; they restrict our freedom for no reason other than that somebody thinks it's wrong for us to be free in that particular way.

I submit that laws which legislate morality are uniformly bad laws; that the only good and worthwhile laws are those which restrict our freedom when the exercise of that freedom would harm others. In this light, when considering the legalisation or illegalisation of any activity, the only question that needs to be asked is "If we are granted freedom to perform this activity, will others be harmed?" If the answer is "no", then the law is a bad one, and should not be passed or should be struck from the books.

At the moment in the western world, increasingly, this view is being taken by legislators. Laws which legislate morality are being struck down all over the place - notably laws against certain sexual conduct (such as homosexuality). While there are still many laws in exsistence which legislate morality, they are decreasing. It may be that some will remain for some time to come (perhaps indefinitely); yet it is still true that there are fewer laws of this type today than there were, say, twenty years ago. I view this as a good thing, and more; I believe that it should be viewed by anyone who is for the maximum possible freedom for each of us as a good thing. To legislate morality is to enforce the moral standards of some particular person or group of persons on the community as a whole, to their disadvantage. This, to my way of thinking, runs counter to the very basis of the (restricted) freedom that the western world holds dear.
 
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Magisterium

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Morality is by definition a standard of right and wrong, period.

All acts of legislation draw the proverbial "lines in the sand" which effectively lay out "morality".

As for your dissertation on freedom, there is a fundamental problem which is marbled throughout. That is the failure to recognize the difference between freedom and license.

Freedom exists only as far as it does not impinge upon the freedom of others. Beyond this point, it is no longer freedom at all, it becomes license. Freedom is not "limited" by impingement, it simply does not exist beyond that point.

That seemingly slight difference is profound in that true freedom itself is never limited. Freedom does not encompass the entire scope of one's abilities. It only encompases the excercise of such abilities that do not limit others.

Further, liberty and freedom are not synonomous. Liberty by definition refers only to uninhibited action. Liberty gives no particular regard to others. This is why there are both decent and indecent liberties (such as indecent liberties with a minor)

This brings me to my next point. Your opposition is not really against "legislating morality" so much as it is against legislating religious morality. This I can understand. However, what you (and certain legislators) fail to realize is that western society is democratic in nature. This means that if the majority of people hold certain moral positions, even on religious grounds, the mere fact that the people want it regardless of it's reasonability, it must be made law.

That said, there will always remain one freedom which can freely be excercised if one opposes the majority rule of a particular democratic state, that freedom is the freedom to leave!
 
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T

The Bellman

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Magisterium said:
All acts of legislation draw the proverbial "lines in the sand" which effectively lay out "morality".
No, they don't. Yes, they draw "lines in the sand", but they don't create morality. If a law was passed tomorrow making it illegal to own a red car, would doing so suddenly become immoral?

Magisterium said:
As for your dissertation on freedom, there is a fundamental problem which is marbled throughout. That is the failure to recognize the difference between freedom and license.

Freedom exists only as far as it does not impinge upon the freedom of others. Beyond this point, it is no longer freedom at all, it becomes license. Freedom is not "limited" by impingement, it simply does not exist beyond that point.

That seemingly slight difference is profound in that true freedom itself is never limited. Freedom does not encompass the entire scope of one's abilities. It only encompases the excercise of such abilities that do not limit others.
This difference between freedom and license you postulate is illusory. Freedom means precisely that; it has no boundaries, no restrictions. There is nothing in the definition of "freedom" that states anything at all about impinging on the freedom of others. What we have is a restricted freedom.

Magisterium said:
Further, liberty and freedom are not synonomous. Liberty by definition refers only to uninhibited action. Liberty gives no particular regard to others. This is why there are both decent and indecent liberties (such as indecent liberties with a minor)
Sorry, but liberty and freedom are synonymous (with regard to our actions). Check any dictionary.

Magisterium said:
This brings me to my next point. Your opposition is not really against "legislating morality" so much as it is against legislating religious morality. This I can understand. However, what you (and certain legislators) fail to realize is that western society is democratic in nature. This means that if the majority of people hold certain moral positions, even on religious grounds, the mere fact that the people want it regardless of it's reasonability, it must be made law.
This is false. My post is exactly against legislating morality - whether that morality has a religious origin is completey irrelevant.

What you fail to realise is the nature of democracy. It is NOT about "what the most people want, happens". If that was the case, we never would have had legislation for equal rights for african americans (since they were a minority). Your statement "the mere fact that the people want it regardless of its reasonability, it must be made law" is simply false, and goes completely against the most basic principles of freedom.
 
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Magisterium

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The Bellman said:
No, they don't. Yes, they draw "lines in the sand", but they don't create morality. If a law was passed tomorrow making it illegal to own a red car, would doing so suddenly become immoral?


This difference between freedom and license you postulate is illusory. Freedom means precisely that; it has no boundaries, no restrictions. There is nothing in the definition of "freedom" that states anything at all about impinging on the freedom of others. What we have is a restricted freedom.


Sorry, but liberty and freedom are synonymous (with regard to our actions). Check any dictionary.


This is false. My post is exactly against legislating morality - whether that morality has a religious origin is completey irrelevant.

What you fail to realise is the nature of democracy. It is NOT about "what the most people want, happens". If that was the case, we never would have had legislation for equal rights for african americans (since they were a minority). Your statement "the mere fact that the people want it regardless of its reasonability, it must be made law" is simply false, and goes completely against the most basic principles of freedom.


OK, here we have a few problems with language.

First of all, the word moral literally means "of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior". Morality is defined in this context as "a doctrine or system of moral conduct "

As I said, morality refers to merely the standard of right and wrong. You however, continually use the word improperly to refer to religious norms and morality (explicitly sexual regulations). Therefore, if indeed a law was passed making red cars illegal, civil morality itself is indeed changed. What is not changed, is religious understandings of right and wrong (which is a morality based upon another authority). An example of this is that abortion which was universally abhorred by most americans, gradually gained acceptance and is now one of the most frequent "medical procedures" performed. This is a clear case of civil morality being directly affected and changed by civil law.

As for the difference between freedom and license, if you dig a little deeper into the usage of the words, what I explained becomes more clear. A basic elementary dictionary definition may not bring out differences between freedom and license. However, if you crack open a collegiate which will bring thing out into more detail, you will come to see the difference. Here's a clip from www.M-W.com which explains freedom, license, and liberty:

FREEDOM, LIBERTY, LICENSE mean the power or condition of acting without compulsion. FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated <freedom of the press>. LIBERTY suggests release from former restraint or compulsion ****e released prisoner had difficulty adjusting to his new liberty>. LICENSE implies freedom specially granted or conceded and may connote an abuse of freedom <freedom without responsibility may degenerate into license>. -Emphasis added

Finally, you've not been paying attention to american democracy. The reason that blacks in the US have equal rights is precisely because of democratic majority. You are apparently unaware of the fact that the black minority weren't the only ones fighting for their equal rights. Have you ever heard of the civil war? That wasn't just a black uprising. If you remember, it was almost the entire northern portion of the country! Even in the civil rights movement of the 60's, the black minority could have had no effect without the necessary support of the voting majority.

In closing, your poorly stated and erroniously written statements are based upon incorrect assumptions and misunderstandings. I do however understand what you're trying to say, but you insist on saying them incorrectly which hampers our ability to enter into a lucid discussion. The real problem you have is with legislation which employs religious precepts.

As I said before, I understand how this must bother ones who do not subscribe to Christian morality. However, as long as Christians are the democratic majority, so go the laws. As I also said before, there remains one freedom which you can always freely excercise, and that is the freedom to leave.
 
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T

The Bellman

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Magisterium said:
You however, continually use the word improperly to refer to religious norms and morality (explicitly sexual regulations).
No, I don't.

Magisterium said:
Therefore, if indeed a law was passed making red cars illegal, civil morality itself is indeed changed.
It appears you don't understand what morality is.

Magisterium said:
As for the difference between freedom and license, if you dig a little deeper into the usage of the words, what I explained becomes more clear. A basic elementary dictionary definition may not bring out differences between freedom and license. However, if you crack open a collegiate which will bring thing out into more detail, you will come to see the difference. Here's a clip from www.M-W.com which explains freedom, license, and liberty:

FREEDOM, LIBERTY, LICENSE mean the power or condition of acting without compulsion. FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated <freedom of the press>. LIBERTY suggests release from former restraint or compulsion ****e released prisoner had difficulty adjusting to his new liberty>. LICENSE implies freedom specially granted or conceded and may connote an abuse of freedom <freedom without responsibility may degenerate into license>. -Emphasis added
Thanks very much, but I know what the words mean. The word 'freedom' neither implies or denotes any limitations. What we have is LIMITED freedom.

Magisterium said:
Finally, you've not been paying attention to american democracy. The reason that blacks in the US have equal rights is precisely because of democratic majority. You are apparently unaware of the fact that the black minority weren't the only ones fighting for their equal rights. Have you ever heard of the civil war? That wasn't just a black uprising. If you remember, it was almost the entire northern portion of the country! Even in the civil rights movement of the 60's, the black minority could have had no effect without the necessary support of the voting majority.
Frankly, YOU'VE not been paying attention to american democracy. The reason that blacks in the US have equal rights is because of a vocal minority. The civil war wasn't only about blacks, as witness the treatment of blacks in the northern states after the war.

One of the primary duties of democracy is to protect minorities from the majority. THAT is why all religions enjoy equal protection.

Magisterium said:
In closing, your poorly stated and erroniously written statements are based upon incorrect assumptions and misunderstandings. I do however understand what you're trying to say, but you insist on saying them incorrectly which hampers our ability to enter into a lucid discussion. The real problem you have is with legislation which employs religious precepts.
No incorrrect assumptions; no misunderstandings.

No, I do not have a problem specifically with legislation which employs religious precepts. As stated, I have a problem with legislating morality.

Magisterium said:
As I said before, I understand how this must bother ones who do not subscribe to Christian morality. However, as long as Christians are the democratic majority, so go the laws. As I also said before, there remains one freedom which you can always freely excercise, and that is the freedom to leave.
False again. The laws don't go the "christian" way, or christians wouldn't be advocating all over the place to have them changed (like laws on abortion).
 
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challenger

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Magisterium said:
As I said before, I understand how this must bother ones who do not subscribe to Christian morality. However, as long as Christians are the democratic majority, so go the laws. As I also said before, there remains one freedom which you can always freely excercise, and that is the freedom to leave.
America - love it or leave it :doh:
 
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