Free Will

[GillDouglas]

Free will is not free the way we commonly think its is. Most Christians that believe 'free will' is a position that allows for choices to be entirely self-derived (without ANY internal/external coercion or limitation) so as to be able to do any possible thing (imagined or unimagined), such as the ability to accept or reject Christ as Savior (apart from God's enabling). In the case of salvation, it assumes that the sinful will is somehow capable, by virtue of being "free", to be able to choose to believe in God and follow him through Christ. It assumes that men are autonomous, independent of any restrictions of law.

The only being in existence that is truly autonomous is God. He is autonomous in that His existence and behavior are not dependent upon anything other than Himself. He is completely self-contained and is independent of anything. He is transcendent in that he exists apart from and existed prior to the universe. Though men are created in His image, were are not like God in regards to autonomy. Free will violates the autonomous character of God by making God's decrees, such as the salvation of His people, conditioned and dependent upon the sinful man's supposed autonomous free will choice.

The fact is, a self-caused free will choice of an individual to trust in Jesus could lead to a denial of the legal substitutionary work of Jesus because the salvation of that individual would only be offered as a possibility, and not a guarantee, because the said salvation can only become effective based upon that individual's autonomous free will choice. So then because salvation can only be realized by a man’s autonomous choice, Christ's sacrifice on the cross, according to this idea of free will, did not actually save anyone.

In the Garden of Eden, the serpent advocated independence from God when he suggested that Eve should make the decision to eat the forbidden fruit so that she would know good and evil. In this, Satan was moving her away from complete dependence on God's word, to an independence from God's word. To believe that we are autonomous and independent from God, having the free will to overthrow His plans by our choices, is to sin against Him.

It's not that we do not have free will, the ability to make choices, certainly we do. However, since we are not autonomous, our choices are subject to the various laws and conditions that can influence these choices. This is especially true when dealing with the realm of the spiritual, where man has absolutely no authority.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Free will is not free the way we commonly think its is. Most Christians that believe 'free will' is a position that allows for choices to be entirely self-derived (without ANY internal/external coercion or limitation) so as to be able to do any possible thing (imagined or unimagined), such as the ability to accept or reject Christ as Savior (apart from God's enabling). In the case of salvation, it assumes that the sinful will is somehow capable, by virtue of being "free", to be able to choose to believe in God and follow him through Christ. It assumes that men are autonomous, independent of any restrictions of law.

The only being in existence that is truly autonomous is God. He is autonomous in that His existence and behavior are not dependent upon anything other than Himself. He is completely self-contained and is independent of anything. He is transcendent in that he exists apart from and existed prior to the universe. Though men are created in His image, were are not like God in regards to autonomy. Free will violates the autonomous character of God by making God's decrees, such as the salvation of His people, conditioned and dependent upon the sinful man's supposed autonomous free will choice.

The fact is, a self-caused free will choice of an individual to trust in Jesus could lead to a denial of the legal substitutionary work of Jesus because the salvation of that individual would only be offered as a possibility, and not a guarantee, because the said salvation can only become effective based upon that individual's autonomous free will choice. So then because salvation can only be realized by a man’s autonomous choice, Christ's sacrifice on the cross, according to this idea of free will, did not actually save anyone.

In the Garden of Eden, the serpent advocated independence from God when he suggested that Eve should make the decision to eat the forbidden fruit so that she would know good and evil. In this, Satan was moving her away from complete dependence on God's word, to an independence from God's word. To believe that we are autonomous and independent from God, having the free will to overthrow His plans by our choices, is to sin against Him.

It's not that we do not have free will, the ability to make choices, certainly we do. However, since we are not autonomous, our choices are subject to the various laws and conditions that can influence these choices. This is especially true when dealing with the realm of the spiritual, where man has absolutely no authority.

Ephesians 2 has a great description of the soul under bondage - including the will - 'fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind' before and then after - 'But God...'- conversion. It goes to show that it must be all of grace!

 

[ProudChristian246]

I don't know, I honestly think that the first thing our Creator respects the most when it comes to Us is our Free Will / Free Choice.

 

[GillDouglas]

I don't know, I honestly think that the first thing our Creator respects the most when it comes to Us is our Free Will / Free Choice.

And you are correct, we do have the ability to make choices. We must make choices! However, if we both agree that God is sovereign, and say for example that His will is for you to move to Hawaii in 2020, then my point of this post is that through His providential authority and your decisions, that is exactly where you'll be. We are not autonomous, which means we are subject to one or more authorities.

 

[section9+1]

If you want to say that God sparks the initial awareness of his salvation in us, or that he's the one who turns on the light bulb in our hearts, I won't argue. But after that, it's all up to us.

 

[tstor]

Free will is not free the way we commonly think its is. Most Christians that believe 'free will' is a position that allows for choices to be entirely self-derived (without ANY internal/external coercion or limitation) so as to be able to do any possible thing (imagined or unimagined), such as the ability to accept or reject Christ as Savior (apart from God's enabling). In the case of salvation, it assumes that the sinful will is somehow capable, by virtue of being "free", to be able to choose to believe in God and follow him through Christ. It assumes that men are autonomous, independent of any restrictions of law.

The only being in existence that is truly autonomous is God. He is autonomous in that His existence and behavior are not dependent upon anything other than Himself. He is completely self-contained and is independent of anything. He is transcendent in that he exists apart from and existed prior to the universe. Though men are created in His image, were are not like God in regards to autonomy. Free will violates the autonomous character of God by making God's decrees, such as the salvation of His people, conditioned and dependent upon the sinful man's supposed autonomous free will choice.

The fact is, a self-caused free will choice of an individual to trust in Jesus could lead to a denial of the legal substitutionary work of Jesus because the salvation of that individual would only be offered as a possibility, and not a guarantee, because the said salvation can only become effective based upon that individual's autonomous free will choice. So then because salvation can only be realized by a man’s autonomous choice, Christ's sacrifice on the cross, according to this idea of free will, did not actually save anyone.

In the Garden of Eden, the serpent advocated independence from God when he suggested that Eve should make the decision to eat the forbidden fruit so that she would know good and evil. In this, Satan was moving her away from complete dependence on God's word, to an independence from God's word. To believe that we are autonomous and independent from God, having the free will to overthrow His plans by our choices, is to sin against Him.

It's not that we do not have free will, the ability to make choices, certainly we do. However, since we are not autonomous, our choices are subject to the various laws and conditions that can influence these choices. This is especially true when dealing with the realm of the spiritual, where man has absolutely no authority.

Preach it!

 

[DeaconDean]

Honestly, two of the best reads on "Free Will" are:

1) On the Bondage of the Will, Martin Luther

2) The Sovereignty of God, Chapter VII, God's Sovereignty and the Human Will

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[GillDouglas]

If you want to say that God sparks the initial awareness of his salvation in us, or that he's the one who turns on the light bulb in our hearts, I won't argue. But after that, it's all up to us.

Every single one that God 'illuminates' would fail, if this is the case. We certainly have our role, and we must live a new life for Christ and not sin, but we are not alone in the struggle. God's salvation gift is secured by Him!

 

[section9+1]

I agree that God remains with us in our Christian walk, but what I might not have clearly said is that we are the ones who make the ultimate choices for ourselves. God can provide enough information for us to make accurate decisions, but the choices are ours alone. God's salvation gift is offered to us, but he doesn't lock us into it.

 

[GillDouglas]

I agree that God remains with us in our Christian walk, but what I might not have clearly said is that we are the ones who make the ultimate choices for ourselves. God can provide enough information for us to make accurate decisions, but the choices are ours alone. God's salvation gift is offered to us, but he doesn't lock us into it.

The God that created all things also governs His creation. A French philosopher, named Jean Paul Sartre who was an atheist, said that if there is a God He has to be Sovereign, and because He is Sovereign men are not truly free. So while I agree with you that we make the 'ultimate' choices, these decisions are confined within the limitations of our being, and within God's will.

 

[bling]

Free will is not free the way we commonly think its is. Most Christians that believe 'free will' is a position that allows for choices to be entirely self-derived (without ANY internal/external coercion or limitation) so as to be able to do any possible thing (imagined or unimagined), such as the ability to accept or reject Christ as Savior (apart from God's enabling). In the case of salvation, it assumes that the sinful will is somehow capable, by virtue of being "free", to be able to choose to believe in God and follow him through Christ. It assumes that men are autonomous, independent of any restrictions of law.

The only being in existence that is truly autonomous is God. He is autonomous in that His existence and behavior are not dependent upon anything other than Himself. He is completely self-contained and is independent of anything. He is transcendent in that he exists apart from and existed prior to the universe. Though men are created in His image, were are not like God in regards to autonomy. Free will violates the autonomous character of God by making God's decrees, such as the salvation of His people, conditioned and dependent upon the sinful man's supposed autonomous free will choice.

The fact is, a self-caused free will choice of an individual to trust in Jesus could lead to a denial of the legal substitutionary work of Jesus because the salvation of that individual would only be offered as a possibility, and not a guarantee, because the said salvation can only become effective based upon that individual's autonomous free will choice. So then because salvation can only be realized by a man’s autonomous choice, Christ's sacrifice on the cross, according to this idea of free will, did not actually save anyone.

In the Garden of Eden, the serpent advocated independence from God when he suggested that Eve should make the decision to eat the forbidden fruit so that she would know good and evil. In this, Satan was moving her away from complete dependence on God's word, to an independence from God's word. To believe that we are autonomous and independent from God, having the free will to overthrow His plans by our choices, is to sin against Him.

It's not that we do not have free will, the ability to make choices, certainly we do. However, since we are not autonomous, our choices are subject to the various laws and conditions that can influence these choices. This is especially true when dealing with the realm of the spiritual, where man has absolutely no authority.

Everyone agrees that we do not have the free will to fly around the room by our own power, so we are limited in our choices. We can be extremely limited by our physical and environmental condition, but could every mature adult mentally make a free will choice outside of these limitations?

Does God have the power and Love to allow mature adult humans to truly make very limited (maybe just one) autonomous free will choices to accept or reject God’s pure charity, which will enable the human to become like God himself in that the human obtains the free unconditional gift of Godly type Love (Luke 7)?

Since God granted a very limited autonomous free will choice to Adam and Eve, why could God not do the same for all mature adults?

Just as the prodigal son on his own did nothing worthy of anything, yet was brought to his senses by his own actions and made the free will choice return to the Father, can we (and really will we) be brought to our senses at least once, while in our mature adult situation, to decide to be macho and stay in the pigsty of life where we deserve to be or humbly turn to the Father we have hurt and ask for just some kind of undeserving existence, out of our selfish motivation?

A mature adult sinful nonbeliever cannot “do” anything righteous, worthy, spiritual or even unselfish, but does that also mean the sinful person, in this dead state, could not humbly accept pure charity for selfish reasons?

 

[section9+1]

GD
I suppose you could say that and be right. I think that while God is sovereign, part of that sovereignty involves relinquishing enough of it to allow us to make decisions that are eternally meaningful to us.

 

[OzSpen]

And you are correct, we do have the ability to make choices. We must make choices! However, if we both agree that God is sovereign, and say for example that His will is for you to move to Hawaii in 2020, then my point of this post is that through His providential authority and your decisions, that is exactly where you'll be. We are not autonomous, which means we are subject to one or more authorities.

Gill,

I find that confusing. Choices but they are not really choices? Is that what you are saying?

There were choices given to Adam in Gen 2:16-17. Then sin came into the world, but choices continued (see Joshua 24).

In God's sovereign will, does God allow human choices?

Oz

 

[Late Apex]

I agree that God remains with us in our Christian walk, but what I might not have clearly said is that we are the ones who make the ultimate choices for ourselves. God can provide enough information for us to make accurate decisions, but the choices are ours alone. God's salvation gift is offered to us, but he doesn't lock us into it.

Actually, natural, fallen man hates God and wants nothing to do with Him. God is the one who changes the heart. God starts it, continues it and finishes it.

I believe in free will. Free, within the confines of ones natural state. For example, a dog is free to do what dogs do. They bark, they eat dead squirrels, etc. etc. However, is a dog free to fly like a bird? No. Natural, fallen man is the same. Without God's intervention, natural man is free indeed, free to do what he likes to do and that desire is to want nothing to do with a perfect Holy God. All natural man wants to do is live in his sin, to chart his own course. However, natural man is NOT free to choose God because he is at enmity, against God. God must act first, and change mans nature with the new birth. Only then will man have a desire for God.

 

[Late Apex]

Gill,

I find that confusing. Choices but they are not really choices? Is that what you are saying?

There were choices given to Adam in Gen 2:16-17. Then sin came into the world, but choices continued (see Joshua 24).

In God's sovereign will, does God allow human choices?

Oz

I make choices every day. So do you. For example, I can walk down the street and see all the pretty girls in their fine spring apparel. I can choose to see them for a moment or I can fix my eyes and start to lust. If I live in the flesh I will continue to gaze and that lust will eventually turn to sin, in my mind, at least. What will happen next? It will pain me, it will ruin my immediate fellowship with God. I will become a slave to sin during that time. I will go backwards or stay lukewarm.

If I stop looking and live in the spirit, I will continue in fellowship with God, I will grow, I will move forward.

Given that it is God that makes me both willing and to do of His good pleasure, do I really have a choice in the matter? That is the question I cannot fully answer. One interesting aspect of this is the further we get away from sin and the closer we get to God, the FREEER we are. Therefore, even if I am meant to not be able to make a particular choice to sin against God, in reality it's getting closer and closer to REAL freedom. Being a complete slave to God is freedom INDEED!

Therefore, I really don't want any freedom of choice aside from what God wants for me. I want my will to be His will and I want His will to be my will. Why? Because it will result in REAL freedom!

 

[Late Apex]

Gill,

I find that confusing. Choices but they are not really choices? Is that what you are saying?

There were choices given to Adam in Gen 2:16-17. Then sin came into the world, but choices continued (see Joshua 24).

In God's sovereign will, does God allow human choices?

Oz

Double post

 

[bling]

Actually, natural, fallen man hates God and wants nothing to do with Him. God is the one who changes the heart. God starts it, continues it and finishes it.

I believe in free will. Free, within the confines of ones natural state. For example, a dog is free to do what dogs do. They bark, they eat dead squirrels, etc. etc. However, is a dog free to fly like a bird? No. Natural, fallen man is the same. Without God's intervention, natural man is free indeed, free to do what he likes to do and that desire is to want nothing to do with a perfect Holy God. All natural man wants to do is live in his sin, to chart his own course. However, natural man is NOT free to choose God because he is at enmity, against God. God must act first, and change mans nature with the new birth. Only then will man have a desire for God.

At the moment of the soldiers surrendering to his enemy, he still hates his enemy, and can feel he should be destroyed for the war crimes he committed, but he is willing to accept pure charity for selfish reasons?

 

[section9+1]

I find it odd that God needs to engineer me to love him. Is it because I naturally don't love goodness or is it because he is so naturally unlovable? How could you tell the difference since we are just manipulated into it either way? It seems in my old natural self I was able to love some things for their own sake without any outside manipulation on anyone's part.

 

[Late Apex]

I find it odd that God needs to engineer me to love him. Is it because I naturally don't love goodness or is it because he is so naturally unlovable? How could you tell the difference since we are just manipulated into it either way? It seems in my old natural self I was able to love some things for their own sake without any outside manipulation on anyone's part.

Because when Adam sinned and in doing so plunged the entire human race into death and separation from God. God "draws" us to Himself. "Manipulated?" If being made alive when I was dead is being "manipulated", so be it. If God is the "manipulator" I submit freely and completely to His will and eternal purposes.

 

[Late Apex]

At the moment of the soldiers surrendering to his enemy, he still hates his enemy, and can feel he should be destroyed for the war crimes he committed, but he is willing to accept pure charity for selfish reasons?

Comparing sinful man against sinful man in war is not analogous to God (The creator of heaven and earth who upholds ALL things by the word of His power, who cannot lie, has no shadow of turning, who's ways are NOT our ways) against a fallen, sinful creature made of dust, who is here today and gone tomorrow, like the wind.

Fallen creature against fallen creature (your example)

THE perfect Creator against a fallen creation who do not deserve the "least of His mercies." (reality)