Free Will

section9+1 · May 15, 2017

You cannot just interject meaning into a meaningless system. If God picks people for saving grace and rejects others, then he is sovereign and all of human experience is meaningless. You can't have it both ways.

bling · May 15, 2017

JIMINZ said:
The macho person isn't Drawn by God.

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Be Blessed

God’s promise of eternal life goes only to those who Love Him, but that does not mean God does not invite everyone. Those that are feasting at the banquet in the kingdom wearing the white garments are Loving the King, so they will receive the promise. The draw of this most wonderful invitation to the banquet was sent out to all and those that did not go refused of their own free will.

JIMINZ · May 15, 2017

OzSpen said:
JIM,

You are correct that God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What did Adam do? He went against God's command and ate.

So, from the very beginning Adam and Eve had free will to choose to disobey God.

Oz

Oz
In the beginning Adam was Created Perfect, having been Created in the image of God, I do not believe anything was lacking in Adam.

So YES Adam did have Free will, but Adam disobeyed God.

God told Adam:
Gen. 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This dying was both a Spiritual and Physical Death.
It was at this point where Adam lost Free Will for all of Mankind.

In other words, Adam effectively gave up his Free Will for the knowledge of Good And Evil, which he gained.

As I have said before in other posts, this Free Will is so often confused with our God given Dominion over all the Earth.

This means we were given by God the Power, and Authority to order our lives, making decisions, and choices, animals do not have Dominion, they do not make decisions or choices, they have what we call instinct, they do naturally what they as animals should do.

Free will on the other hand was one of the many attributes of God (In His Image) which we lost through the Fall of Adam.

Free Will was just one of those attributes Adam relinquished for the knowledge he gained.

Because Adam exercised his Free Will through the disobedience (Sin) of God's Command, he lost the Free Will to resist the sin he exposed by his own sin.

He acquired a Sinful Nature at that point, this Sinful Nature has been passed down through the generations to mankind of today.

The having of Free Will, is only in relation to Sin,
Adam had Free Will and chose to disobey God's Command (Law) which was sin.

Mankind after the fall of Adam, does not have the Free Will to resist sin, because man has a sinful Nature, therefore SIN is in the Flesh.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Prov. 4:23
Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Mar 7:20-23
20) And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Be Blessed

JIMINZ · May 15, 2017

bling said:
God’s promise of eternal life goes only to those who Love Him, but that does not mean God does not invite everyone. Those that are feasting at the banquet in the kingdom wearing the white garments are Loving the King, so they will receive the promise. The draw of this most wonderful invitation to the banquet was sent out to all and those that did not go refused of their own free will.

Your right the story was about the Kingdom.

First, the Kingdom is not Salvation.

Second, the people who refused to come to the banquet were not just mankind refusing Salvation, they were specifically, Jews refusing to accept Jesus as their Messiah and His Kingdom.

Be Blessed

cuja1 · May 15, 2017

I love this topic and would love to see a conclusion on the matter but I don't think there ever will be.

I myself have a hard time believing in free will. Even when I hear of someone choosing which socks to where I can't help but think that some past experience or physiological cause is affecting this decision.

Science supports the notion that humans do not have free will. The Bible itself seems to be ambiguous on the subject.

In the end, I believe that the Bible is from God and can only try not to think about whether we have free will or not.

sdowney717 · May 15, 2017

cuja1 said:
I love this topic and would love to see a conclusion on the matter but I don't think there ever will be.

I myself have a hard time believing in free will. Even when I hear of someone choosing which socks to where I can't help but think that some past experience or physiological cause is affecting this decision.

Science supports the notion that humans do not have free will. The Bible itself seems to be ambiguous on the subject.

In the end, I believe that the Bible is from God and can only try not to think about whether we have free will or not.

Psalm 139, is good to ponder. All our days God which God fashioned beforehand He wrote down in His book before we were born. And for believers, The Psalmist says, God thoughts towards His people are precious and wonderful all for our good.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.

14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.

15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

sdowney717 · May 15, 2017

section9+1 said:
You cannot just interject meaning into a meaningless system. If God picks people for saving grace and rejects others, then he is sovereign and all of human experience is meaningless. You can't have it both ways.

God is at work, the jews asked Christ about the work of God and Christ plainly told them.
John 6:28-29New King James Version (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

God can not fail nor can God lie, whatever God does is perfect and man can not take away or add anything to the work of God.

God does all that He pleases according to His own purposes and will.

sdowney717 · May 15, 2017

Isaiah 46
8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Why did Paul tell people to fear and tremble?
It was because God was at work among them to do His purpose and will, and yeah that could be scary as you are not in control of your destiny, your fate or your rewards, He will hold all accountable for what they do in the flesh and all have sinned. However,

Romans 4
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Philippians 2:9-13New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Light Bearers
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Romans 1, we are the called of Jesus Christ, called to be saints or we are not called at all. Only those called have grace and peace with God.

5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1, Paul is speaking directly to the saints who are in the church who are also the called of Jesus Christ which all the apostles so wrote of in their various letters. There is no peace for the wicked, and if you do not believe in Christ then you are the wicked, condemned already, because you have not believed. Christ only gathers into one those things who are in Him. If your destiny is outside then you stay outside of the New Covenant, your desire will always be to do the will of your father, if Satan then Satan's will or if of God, then God's will will be done in your life to conform you to the image of Christ.
You can not be set free from sin and Satan unless Christ MAKES YOU FREE, and then you become a slave of righteousness.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
..................................................
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

sdowney717 · May 15, 2017

Here Christ tells us plainly and it is a truth in which Christ rejoices exceedingly, because salvation is all about the grace and glory of God and not man's choice or will. He and God are only revealed so that a man knows them ( is saved) if it is their will to do so, they must actively will to reveal themselves, otherwise they will remain unsaved and not know the truth of God in Christ.
This is similar to John 6 where Christ says God must grant individually someone to come to Christ.

Luke 10
Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

OzSpen · May 16, 2017

JIMINZ said:
This dying was both a Spiritual and Physical Death.
It was at this point where Adam lost Free Will for all of Mankind.

JIMINZ,

Not so.

'But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD' (Joshua 24:15 NIV).

Oz

JIMINZ · May 16, 2017

OzSpen said:
JIMINZ,

Not so.

'But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD' (Joshua 24:15 NIV).

Oz

That event is nothing more than Joshua the Leader of the Israelite's, telling them to make a decision, not as individuals, but as a people.

Just because Joshua used the word CHOOSE does not mean mankind has a Free Will, a person does not have a Free Will when it comes to Sin.

We are the Servants (Slaves) of Sin, we have a Sinful Nature, Sin is in our Flesh, we cannot get away from it, nor can we ignore it, we wake up with Sin in our Flesh and we go to bed with Sin in our Flesh, it's always there.

That is why we needed a Savior, He, Jesus condemned Sin in the Flesh.

Rom. 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

Free Will only pertains to Sin and our ability to resit it or not.......Period

Be Blessed

OzSpen · May 16, 2017

JIMINZ said:
That event is nothing more than Joshua the Leader of the Israelite's, telling them to make a decision, not as individuals, but as a people.

Just because Joshua used the word CHOOSE does not mean mankind has a Free Will, a person does not have a Free Will when it comes to Sin.

We are the Servants (Slaves) of Sin, we have a Sinful Nature, Sin is in our Flesh, we cannot get away from it, nor can we ignore it, we wake up with Sin in our Flesh and we go to bed with Sin in our Flesh, it's always there.

That is why we needed a Savior, He, Jesus condemned Sin in the Flesh.

Rom. 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

Free Will only pertains to Sin and our ability to resit it or not.......Period

Be Blessed

So in your view choose does not mean choice. That theology caused me to refute it in my article, Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15

Oz

cuja1 · May 16, 2017

OzSpen said:
JIMINZ,

Not so.

'But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD' (Joshua 24:15 NIV).

Oz

I would note that he says if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you. We will choose what we want most, what our heart desires and we are not in control of the desires of our heart.

So you can chose and still be unable to chose any other option IMO.

Zoii · May 16, 2017

how free can free will be when theres punishment that follows. God got pretty annoyed with the antics of some people and as a result responded with the genocide of the entire human, land dwelling and bird population. Id think that as far as god is concerned you have only a will to do what he expects and if you dont then he is more than happy to wipe us all out....and has done so once already.

sdowney717 · May 16, 2017

God long ago after the flood made a statement about the condition of the natural human heart, and it is not encouraging regarding people making an uneducated right choice. All that the Father gives to Christ WILL come to Christ, they are all of those given taught by the Holy Spirit. Read John 6.

Gen 8:21
Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

bling · May 16, 2017

JIMINZ said:
Your right the story was about the Kingdom.

First, the Kingdom is not Salvation.

Second, the people who refused to come to the banquet were not just mankind refusing Salvation, they were specifically, Jews refusing to accept Jesus as their Messiah and His Kingdom.

Be Blessed

You might have to help me understand what you mean by “the Kingdom is not Salvation”:

Do you feel the nation of Israel at the time of Christ was the kingdom, or did the kingdom come later?

Do you see the kingdom of God (or heaven) as being a Spiritual Kingdom Christ was a part of while here on earth and later when the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit was given those individuals, they were part of the kingdom?

I see the Spiritual Kingdom of God really starting with Pentecost and growing from there, true Christians have become members of the kingdom and are also saved individuals. These individuals accepted the invitation and willingly put on the wedding garments which makes them part of God’s Kingdom saved individuals even while the earth.

Salvation is at the wedding feast, but some will go and refuse to change their ways so they will be thrown out, never to participate in the feast.

I fully agree Jesus is talking specifically to Jews and Jews who were to prideful (like the Pharisees) to even sit down at a huge feast because the King would invite street people (gentiles) to join them will be lost, but that does not mean it does not have application to all people and the specifics of how it works for Jews tells us a lot about how it does work.

Accepting the invitation to the feast (God’s huge charitable gifts), does not also mean you are willing to give up your “comfortable life of sin” (Your old garments) even though the wedding garments are beautiful and you’re in rags. The putting on of the wedding garments is analogues to salvation (new birth), so that is the bigger choice.

cuja1 · May 16, 2017

OzSpen said:
So in your view choose does not mean choice. That theology caused me to refute it in my article, Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15

Oz

Isn't it possible that choose simply could mean to select an option without actually meaning that the person had the ability to select another option?

JIMINZ · May 16, 2017

cuja1 said:
I would note that he says if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you. We will choose what we want most, what our heart desires and we are not in control of the desires of our heart.

So you can chose and still be unable to chose any other option IMO.

The point I have been trying to make is, and I have said it this plainly.

God Created Adam in His own image, that means he was Created with Free Will because God has Free Will.

Understood?

Adam was (GIVEN Dominion) over the earth, and all of the other Creations of God.

When God Created Adam in His image, Dominion was not part of what he received, it was given at a later date.

Understood?

Adam lost the Free Will he possessed when he rebelled against God and God's Commandment, "Thou shall not eat" Adam at that moment DIED Spiritually, he ceased to be in the image of God and took on the image of the Natural Man, he acquired a Sinful Nature because of his sin, and the sin was now in the Flesh.

Understood?

But, Adam did not lose the Dominion Given to him by God, man has the ability to make decisions, to have choices.

Those are all of the things God Gave to man (Adam) for him to Order his life, have control of his environment, and over the animals.

Understood?

This is where the confusion between Free Will and Dominion occurs, Mankind does have the God Given right to make Decisions, and Choices, but Mankind does not any longer Possess a Free Will because Adam lost it in the Fall, mankind is not in the image of God, mankind is in the image of sinful Adam our father, the Natural man, possessing a Sinful Nature.

Understood?

God gives US Christians the ability to become His Sons (Children) through Baptism, but when we do become His children, we don't gain Free Will back we become the Servants of God to do His will and serve His Purpose.

I can't say it any clearer.

Be Blessed

Phil 1:21 · May 16, 2017

GillDouglas said:
It's not that we do not have free will, the ability to make choices, certainly we do. However, since we are not autonomous, our choices are subject to the various laws and conditions that can influence these choices. This is especially true when dealing with the realm of the spiritual, where man has absolutely no authority.

Excellent synopsis.

sdowney717 · May 16, 2017

JIMINZ said:
The point I have been trying to make is, and I have said it this plainly.

God Created Adam in His own image, that means he was Created with Free Will because God has Free Will.

Understood?

Adam was (GIVEN Dominion) over the earth, and all of the other Creations of God.

When God Created Adam in His image, Dominion was not part of what he received, it was given at a later date.

Understood?

Adam lost the Free Will he possessed when he rebelled against God and God's Commandment, "Thou shall not eat" Adam at that moment DIED Spiritually, he ceased to be in the image of God and took on the image of the Natural Man, he acquired a Sinful Nature because of his sin, and the sin is in the Flesh.

Understood?

But, Adam did not lose the Dominion Given to him bay God, man has the ability to make decisions, to have choices.

Those are all of the things God Gave to man (Adam) for him to Order his life, have control of his environment, over the animals.

Understood?

This is where the confusion between Free Will and Dominion occurs, Mankind does have the God Given right to make Decisions, and Choices, but Mankind does not any longer Possess a Free Will because Adam lost it in the Fall, mankind is not in the image of God, mankind is in the image of sinful Adam our father, the Natural man, possessing a Sinful Nature.

Understood?

God gives US Christians the ability to become His Sons (Children) through Baptism, but when we do become His children, we don't gain Free Will back we become the Servants of God to do His will and serve His Purpose.

I can't say it any clearer.

Be Blessed

'mankind is not in the image of God, mankind is in the image of sinful Adam our father, the Natural man, possessing a Sinful Nature.'

Consider though what James says
James 3:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)
8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. 10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers,[a] these things ought not to be so.

There is nothing scripturally to indicate mankind is still not being made in the image of God.
And here James is speaking of mankind generally. Simply to be made in the image of God, I view as more of having a spirit, soul, body, our own triune nature, where we are made up of 3 parts into a unified being as is God of a triune nature.

After the fall of man scripture also says this.
Genesis 9:6
“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.

sdowney717 · May 16, 2017

An image is just a likeness, or a similitude, a reflection of something greater than itself.
One reason that man can be saved is we are made after the image, likeness of God, but the angels and demons are not so, only man can be saved by believing in Christ.

We who believe, God predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, we shall be like Him John says, but we will not be Him. And Jesus taught we shall be like Him, but the student is not greater than the teacher.

Matthew 10:24
“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 10:25
It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.

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