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Free Will

section9+1

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God tells me that he is good. In order for me to understand what he is talking about, me & God both have to agree on what is good. We both have to be on the same page in order for him to communicate his goodness to me. If I cannot see his goodness, how does it become believable to me? If God tells me light, light and all I can see is dark, dark, it makes the light difficult to believe. In my view, I can see God's goodness, in your view, I cannot.
 
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MDC

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Those who end up saved is no arbitrary rolling of the dice.
The saved are saved because God has chosen to save them.
God made that predetermined decision before their birth.
Our becoming saved was entirely due to His favoring grace by which God made us accepted into the family of God.

Ephesians 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Absolutely correct! And it is only those who haven't been touched by the mercy and grace of God in Christ, that refuse this truth in scripture
 
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MDC

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If people are honest about it, they would realize that they do not like the idea of some being saved over others. It's not fair! However, it is completely biblical that God has chosen one person over another, for many purposes in order that God's will be done. God reserves the right to do what He chooses, with whom He chooses and whatever He chooses is just and good for His purpose.
And is why the rhetorical question was brought up by Paul in Romans 9:19-21.. The pride and arrogance of man cannot stand that salvation is by elective grace. And is why it's unfair to them. Self righteousness blinds them from humbling themselves before God and pleading to be found in Christ and His righteousness alone
 
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JIMINZ

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Free will is not free the way we commonly think its is. Most Christians that believe 'free will' is a position that allows for choices to be entirely self-derived (without ANY internal/external coercion or limitation) so as to be able to do any possible thing (imagined or unimagined), such as the ability to accept or reject Christ as Savior (apart from God's enabling). In the case of salvation, it assumes that the sinful will is somehow capable, by virtue of being "free", to be able to choose to believe in God and follow him through Christ. It assumes that men are autonomous, independent of any restrictions of law.

The only being in existence that is truly autonomous is God. He is autonomous in that His existence and behavior are not dependent upon anything other than Himself. He is completely self-contained and is independent of anything. He is transcendent in that he exists apart from and existed prior to the universe. Though men are created in His image, were are not like God in regards to autonomy. Free will violates the autonomous character of God by making God's decrees, such as the salvation of His people, conditioned and dependent upon the sinful man's supposed autonomous free will choice.

The fact is, a self-caused free will choice of an individual to trust in Jesus could lead to a denial of the legal substitutionary work of Jesus because the salvation of that individual would only be offered as a possibility, and not a guarantee, because the said salvation can only become effective based upon that individual's autonomous free will choice. So then because salvation can only be realized by a man’s autonomous choice, Christ's sacrifice on the cross, according to this idea of free will, did not actually save anyone.

In the Garden of Eden, the serpent advocated independence from God when he suggested that Eve should make the decision to eat the forbidden fruit so that she would know good and evil. In this, Satan was moving her away from complete dependence on God's word, to an independence from God's word. To believe that we are autonomous and independent from God, having the free will to overthrow His plans by our choices, is to sin against Him.

It's not that we do not have free will, the ability to make choices, certainly we do. However, since we are not autonomous, our choices are subject to the various laws and conditions that can influence these choices. This is especially true when dealing with the realm of the spiritual, where man has absolutely no authority.

Your right, we do not have Free Will, but we do have the ability to make decisions and choices, this then is called DOMINION, there is a difference.

Dominion God gave to man to order his life on earth, to have the control of God's Creation, and be the superior being in it, but that is where it ends.

Free Will on the other hand is what man thinks he has, because he has the ability to choose what color socks he will wear today.

Free Will only pertains to mans ability to resist sin, this is something which man cannot do.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Man because of his fallen Nature is the slave of sin.

Sin is in the flesh of man, he will always tend to sin.

Man can only come to God, when God Draws him, at no time before that drawing of God, does man have (Possess) the ability to exercise his Free Will to come to God, otherwise those of us who have been drawn, would not have waited as long as we did before the gift of God's Grace came to us, and we Believed.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat. 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Luke 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is only by God's Grace that we have received Salvation, it is sure we did not come to our Salvation by an act of Free Will, therefore it is also sure, we do not have the ability to reject it by an act of our Free Will.

Eph. 2:9,10
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus

The man who has received the Gift of God's Grace, his very Salvation, does not sin.

Rom. 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul says we are dead to sin.
Do you know anyone who has died and been buried who has continued to sin?

Rom. 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Rom. 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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Gill,

I find that confusing. Choices but they are not really choices? Is that what you are saying?

There were choices given to Adam in Gen 2:16-17. Then sin came into the world, but choices continued (see Joshua 24).

In God's sovereign will, does God allow human choices?

Oz

Technically , Adam was not given a choice, he was told by God.

Gen 2:16,17
16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That does not sound like a choice, it was a Command "NOT TO" God didn't say it's up to you if you wnt to eat it or not.

Yes God does allow choice, but not about sin, once the fall of Adam happened, sinning was not a choice mankind would have.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Tonight however, you do have the ability to CHOOSE Dominoes, or Mc Donald's

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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Actually, natural, fallen man hates God and wants nothing to do with Him. God is the one who changes the heart. God starts it, continues it and finishes it.

I believe in free will. Free, within the confines of ones natural state. For example, a dog is free to do what dogs do. They bark, they eat dead squirrels, etc. etc. However, is a dog free to fly like a bird? No. Natural, fallen man is the same. Without God's intervention, natural man is free indeed, free to do what he likes to do and that desire is to want nothing to do with a perfect Holy God. All natural man wants to do is live in his sin, to chart his own course. However, natural man is NOT free to choose God because he is at enmity, against God. God must act first, and change mans nature with the new birth. Only then will man have a desire for God.

What you are saying sounds right except it contradicts itself.

If the natural man is "Not Free" to choose God because he is at enmity against God, then it only stands to reason, he is also "Not Free" to desire to want nothing to do with a perfect Holy God.

In other words, it is his fallen nature which is at enmity against God, he has no choice in the matter.

The fall of Adam changed everything for mankind.

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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Gill,

Why should we pray for them when they are unconditionally elected to salvation (and damnation as Calvin believed) and they cannot resist God's grace - according to the TULIP soteriology?

Oz

That TULIP discussion, hasn't been solved in 500 yrs.
are you of the belief Calvin was correct?
 
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JIMINZ

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The enemy soldier and enemy of God can both surrender and at their point of surrendering they are not “joining” their enemy and their former enemy they were fighting is still their enemy.

I fully agree the enemy soldier or rebellious disobedient sinner at the moment of his/her surrender does not “deserve” anything due to former war crimes.

So the analogy works for the rebellious disobedient sinner and vicious soldier.

The difference you bring up is with God and the enemy, since God has an unbelievable huge Love and the enemy of the soldier love will be much less and/or not at all.

Paul describes all humans as being children of God, so do you believe we were made in God’s image and everyone starts out a child of God?

I have found, our terminology speaks our inner beliefs'

You have used the word, (Surrender - ed - ing).

Are you of the belief, we surrender to God's Grace, I tend to believe, someone cannot surrender unless there has been an active opposition to the one they are surrendering to.

Therefore the analogy doesn't work.

When a person receives Christ, was there an actual resistance to God's Grace?

You use the soldier as the example, he knows who his enemy is, does the sinner perceive God as an enemy,
or does he just do as he does because it is his human nature inherited from Adam?

At the moment he becomes a Believer, he isn't surrendering, he is being SAVED from sin.

Adam was created in the image of God, do you believe, before someone receives Christ they resemble God?

Mankind is no longer in the image of God, because of the fall, but we are in the image of our Father Adam, with all of the sinful lusts available to the sinful fallen nature we inherited from him.

Could you provide a verse where Paul says all humans are the children of God,

Again it comes down to your Terminology, if it is off, then your understanding is also off, and in turn everything after that misunderstanding is also wrong.

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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Why did God choose Israel? Were they better than anyone else? Did they have any redeeming qualities to where God would favor them over any other nation? No. Nothing has changed. God chose His children before the foundation of the world. If you are God's child He knew YOUR name before you were even born. Dead men cannot save themselves. Dead men can do NOTHING but be..........dead.

Ephesians 1:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This verse 4 isn't saying we were chosen to be in Him before the foundation of the world.

That's what Calvin was saying, he was wrong.

What It is saying though is.
"that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" before the foundation of the world.

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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God chose Abraham and I do not know why. I don't think he used a dart board with a bunch of names on it and struck Abraham's. Sounds like a lot of times he regretted what Israel turned into.
If you are right then we are all actors on a stage with pre-written scripts and character roles. Meaningful choices don't exist. All the tragedies and sufferings of mankind really don't mean anything since it's all been pre determined. Sounds pretty cold to me.

To make it very simple, God does not Micromanage the world.

God did micromanage the Israelite's, they were His chosen people, above all the peoples of the world.

God gave Adam (Mankind) Dominion, that's the ability to make choices, these choices would determine his future, that is what Dominion does, it gives man the right to screw things up, in this world we are sovereign, God gave the Power and Authority to mankind, but do you know what happened, ADAM FELL, God did not repent of His giving this Dominion to Adam, but after the fall it was in the hands of humans with a Fallen Nature, a Sinful Nature.

God did however give it another chance with Noah.

It would be like saying God wound up the Earth (World) like a top, and set it going on it's own course, with man in control.

All of the Natural things which happen are nothing more than the way the Natural World works, Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Tsunami's.

But the Wars, and the ways mankind treats his fellow man, comes from the heart of a corrupt mankind, and his sovereign Dominion.

The only times where God intervened, were the times where it directly involved Israel, either something they had done, or something which others were going to do to them.

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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Free will is the gift of the holy spirit, when you are in bondage you do NOT have free will, your will has been taken captive by your demon owners.

2 Timothy 2:26

He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.

Before Salvation we were the Servants (Slaves) of sin.
After Salvation we have become the Servants (Slaves) of God.

If we were the Slaves of sin because of our Human Nature inherited from Adam.
Where was our Free Will?
We were dead in our sins.
It was lost in the Fall of Adam.

When we become the Servants of God we have been, Ordained, and Predestined.
Where is our Free Will?

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom. 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We do not have a choice in the matter, we are chosen and Drawn by God for His Grace, by which we receive Salvation, we are Ordained unto good works, and because of this we have been Predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ.

We do not have a Free Will, we never had a Free Will, Adam had a Free Will but lost it for all of mankind because of his disobedience.

Where does it say Free Will is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Even Jesus relinquished His Free Will unto the Father, are we better than He?

Jesus was Predestined, so are we.

NO FREE WILL.

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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You say God knows everything from the beginning yet the Bible says: "God never new those that are lost", so could the way God never new those that are lost be the same way God knows who is going to be saved?
God will know all those that accept Him and not know all those that refuse Him.

If you are referring to.

Mat. 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus was saying that "They" didn't know Him, they should have, they were the chosen people they had the words of God, they should have known their Messiah.

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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It is simple: The nonbeliever is like an soldier fighting hard against God (his enemy), but this is very exhausting and as a soldier he can always surrender to his enemy, give up and really just wimp out.

At the very moment of a soldier's surrendering his enemy is still his enemy and he can well believe he will be tortured and destroyed for his war crimes, but he "hopes/trusts" he can just have some kind of livable life (like the prodigal son) and he is willing to accept his enemy's pure charity (something he knows he does not deserve). "work" is something you do to justly receive benefit for doing, you earn your reward, and it is not a gift to you, but payment for your work. The vicious enemy who surrenders is not worthy of anything and will have no monument built for his behavior, while monuments are built to soldiers that fought and died on both sides in this world.

The macho person (those that refuse God's charity) are willing to pay the piper and accept fully what they deserve and really not bother God further with their "needs", so it is the wimps who are "saved".

The macho person isn't Drawn by God.

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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sdowney
I believe God's church is predestined, which means God has a predetermined role and place for the church. So if you are one of his, you are predestined because his church is predestined. That predestination does not apply to individuals. If individuals are predestined for saving grace then others are predestined for damnation. I do believe in predestination to a limited extent meaning some people groups are disadvantaged when it comes to salvation and if you are born into that group your chances are weaker, but to be deliberately excluded by God without any chance or possibility, I don't think is biblical.

Your understanding of Predestination, where does it come from, and how does this Predetermination affect a Christian.

Be Blessed
 
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JIMINZ

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No thanks to Calvinism, Jiminz.

That's cool, you hear the word Predestination and you naturally assume someone is pushing Calvinism.

You said:
"I believe God's church is predestined, which means God has a predetermined role and place for the church."

I asked for an explanation of your statement.
My question was.

Your understanding of Predestination, where does it come from, and how does this Predetermination affect a Christian.

I have no interest in discussing Calvin or his beliefs on the subject.

Are we just supposed to take what you have said without explanation, if so, why?

Be Blessed
 
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OzSpen

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Technically , Adam was not given a choice, he was told by God.

Gen 2:16,17
16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That does not sound like a choice, it was a Command "NOT TO" God didn't say it's up to you if you wnt to eat it or not.

JIM,

You are correct that God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What did Adam do? He went against God's command and ate.

So, from the very beginning Adam and Eve had free will to choose to disobey God.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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