Free will?

[Eyesee]

Argh, you got me. Yep, I was trying to create a giant controversy to destroy the forums as we know it...

Lol not really.

In all honesty, I think this issue is a valid question that both believers and non-believers alike are completley justified in asking. I mean, understanding how our free will factors into the salvation process is kind of important in my opinion.

I'm convinced that there is a definite answer to this question, despite the differing point of views. Maybe this is just my nature, but I'm never satisfied with the "Well, there are some things only God understands" answer. I hope this doesn't come off as sounding snotty or anything, but once I get curious about a question, it's hard for me to stop looking for answers.

Well I'm a lot like you are. It's okay to wonder about things -- I think that Quietspirit posted a wonderful passage for you to look at.

 

[quitespirit]

So, I'd say this is a debate similar to "chicken or egg?" As long as you don't allow the curiosity on the topic to lead to unfruitful or unedifying debate (like needing to be right, or engaging in argument) and...as long as you don't feed doubt about God's character, or come to question is fairness? Have at it! Study, ask pastors, listen to sermons. But if it becomes stumbling block? I'd let it be. Your salvation is secure, no matter which came first, the calling or the responding.

 

[quitespirit]

You've got my wheels turning now...lol.

If we choose God, instead of Him calling us first what about those of us who rejected God? Some of us (me included) came to God kicking and screaming. He had to strike me down very sick, and supernaturally strip away the chains in my life in order to compel me to stop resisting. I can't take credit for choosing God. But then again, I don't think any of us can. Salvation requires faith. Faith is a gift from God.

Recently I was rebellious against God. It was getting messy. I fought God again (though not as deliberately this time. I was hardened in my heart from habitual sin, wasn't seeing how rebellious I'd gotten). I didn't run to God to repent. He knocked me to my knees once again.

I know others who ran from God's call. He just broke some of us until we cried uncle...lol. How that plays into the free will debate is up to you but that was my experience.

Who can resist His will?

 

[madetoworship]

It's a debate over Arminianism and Calvinism. Is it necessary to choose one over the other? No because it's not over necessary Christian doctrine for belief. My personal view is that it's a little bit of both. That's why God places both in scripture equally. So I believe God has chosen us, elected us before time because He is sovereign over everything even our salvation from beginning to end. But also we have a choice to follow God in every moment every day. We have to work at our salvation with fear and trembling in our own time because we aren't God. We don't know who's elected and waiting until that's revealed.

Read Ephesians 1.

Here's an excerpt: In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13 ESV)

 

[The Fire Rises]

It's a debate over Arminianism and Calvinism. Is it necessary to choose one over the other? No because it's not over necessary Christian doctrine for belief. My personal view is that it's a little bit of both. That's why God places both in scripture equally. So I believe God has chosen us, elected us before time because He is sovereign over everything even our salvation from beginning to end. But also we have a choice to follow God in every moment every day. We have to work at our salvation with fear and trembling in our own time because we aren't God. We don't know who's elected and waiting until that's revealed.

Read Ephesians 1.

Here's an excerpt: In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13 ESV)

Well see, that's another aspect of the conversation. There is the OSAS camp, which is confusing in and of itself. If you truly accept Christ into your life and experience what He's all about, I don't see how or why anyone could turn from that. But, the reality is that people do. A good friend of Billy Graham's, who we'll just call Dave (forget his name) was living the sleazy life of a drunkard who spent his time at strip clubs.

He begged Christ to come into His life, and He did. One day he met Billy and together they went down the path to become renowned preachers. Some people even thought that Dave might one day become more popular than Billy. But then Dave turned from his faith after years of building doubt, he still loved everything Christ stood for, but became agnostic in nature after developing Alzeimers. So how would God judge this poor man? We may never know. But clearly, it is possible for people to turn from Him, God doesn't force us to keep following Him.

My view is that, while God may influence my life in various ways and offer me paths to take, I am still ultimately the master of my fate. I don't say this because I want to be "independent" of God, because I know full well how much I depend on Him. I just say this because of the free will He gave me. If I really wanted to, I could turn from Christ and never look back. But God already knows that I won't. So in that sense, you could say it's "pre-destiny".

The danger of predestination is that people begin to think that what they do in this life doesn't matter, but it does. Everyone decides their own fate, either the one God offers them or their sinful nature offers them, there's no grey area. So God knew what Hitler would become before he did, He knew what Billy Graham would become before he did. But it was still their choice. Hopefully this makes some sense, I've never been that great at explaining things.

 

[Spunkn]

No I think you're on the right track. Both extremes of either side are not entirely correct, because in going to one extreme, you have to give up the other. That's why the argument for free will vs. election will never end. That's why I've kinda stopped posting in those threads in the apologetics forums, because they will probably go on forever with neither side being convinced the other side is right, when in reality they're both right to some degree. At least in my opinion, and I think according to Scripture as I understand it. And each side will hold to their own extreme, each side giving up a measure of truth because they hold to an extreme or they see contradictions where one doesn't actually exist.

 

[Spunkn]

So, I'd say this is a debate similar to "chicken or egg?" As long as you don't allow the curiosity on the topic to lead to unfruitful or unedifying debate (like needing to be right, or engaging in argument) and...as long as you don't feed doubt about God's character, or come to question is fairness? Have at it! Study, ask pastors, listen to sermons. But if it becomes stumbling block? I'd let it be. Your salvation is secure, no matter which came first, the calling or the responding.

Agreed, there comes a point where instead of iron sharpening iron it just becomes loud noises of everyone trying to shout over each other.

 

[madetoworship]

Well see, that's another aspect of the conversation. There is the OSAS camp, which is confusing in and of itself. If you truly accept Christ into your life and experience what He's all about, I don't see how or why anyone could turn from that. But, the reality is that people do. A good friend of Billy Graham's, who we'll just call Dave (forget his name) was living the sleazy life of a drunkard who spent his time at strip clubs.

He begged Christ to come into His life, and He did. One day he met Billy and together they went down the path to become renowned preachers. Some people even thought that Dave might one day become more popular than Billy. But then Dave turned from his faith after years of building doubt, he still loved everything Christ stood for, but became agnostic in nature after developing Alzeimers. So how would God judge this poor man? We may never know. But clearly, it is possible for people to turn from Him, God doesn't force us to keep following Him.

My view is that, while God may influence my life in various ways and offer me paths to take, I am still ultimately the master of my fate. I don't say this because I want to be "independent" of God, because I know full well how much I depend on Him. I just say this because of the free will He gave me. If I really wanted to, I could turn from Christ and never look back. But God already knows that I won't. So in that sense, you could say it's "pre-destiny".

The danger of predestination is that people begin to think that what they do in this life doesn't matter, but it does. Everyone decides their own fate, either the one God offers them or their sinful nature offers them, there's no grey area. So God knew what Hitler would become before he did, He knew what Billy Graham would become before he did. But it was still their choice. Hopefully this makes some sense, I've never been that great at explaining things.

Yes I think what you are referring to is the doctrine - Irresistible Grace.

I think predestination in its very sense is far beyond that. It goes like this:

Say Dave DID turn from His faith. Calvinist would say that Dave never had a real relationship God to begin with, God never really called him, and he was never elected.

Same goes for you if you turn from Christ. Calvinists would say that you never have a real relationship with God and if you did have one, you will remain in Him.

I hope that makes it clearer.

God's sovereignty over our eternal outcome (in the Calvinist point of view) is far beyond our choices. Our choices are what we make in the hear and now (daily) and yet God has eyes over everything that will come to past. He's not controlling every little minute decision per say (the Bible has no notion of that). BUT, it does make it clear that God knows what will come to pass and who will be revealed has His elect.

 

[seeingeyes]

I'll tell you a secret: It doesn't really matter one way or the other.

 

[LilLamb219]

John 15:16 is the verse that states that we did not choose God but God chose us....

It matters greatly because those who state that they can first choose God (which leaves him out of the picture) then go on to state that it was because of that choice that they are a Christian....which again, leaves God out of salvation turning instead toward that Christian "who chose" "who accepted" "who asked into his heart"...etc...

Stating that God is the one who first gave us faith so we could turn to him (is that a choice or just not rejecting what He has given?) give the FULL credit to our loving God who fully saves us without our help...because He doesn't need it. What was done at the cross was done, our sins are saved. God gives us faith (by grace through faith) in order to believe so that we may have eternal life.

The verses that people use from scripture that talk about accepting or answering the door are given to those who are already believers!!!

 

[The Fire Rises]

Say Dave DID turn from His faith. Calvinist would say that Dave never had a real relationship God to begin with, God never really called him, and he was never elected.

Same goes for you if you turn from Christ. Calvinists would say that you never have a real relationship with God and if you did have one, you will remain in Him.

Yeah see I think that's sort of a cop-out. We have absolutely no way of knowing if someone's faith was genuine or not. Are Calvinists somehow all-knowing like God? I don't think so. They're just making assumptions and nothing more.

Why anyone would turn from Christ is beyond me, but I've seen it happen to people in my own life. For every atheist-turned-Christian story there's a Christian-turned-atheist story, such as "Dave". We don't sign some sort of binding contract that says we have no choice (free will) in the matter, we must abide in Christ. For me, I make a concious choice everyday to follow Him, lean on Him and reject my sinful nature. It's often times a struggle, and would be easy to give in. I do it because I want to, not because I have to.

God helps me through it, and is the only reason I've even gotten this far. But He doesn't force me to do anything, that would not be consistent with a loving God or free will.

 

[christ disciple]

It's always been my belief that God gives everyone an oppurtunity to follow Him, to accept Him into their lives. It's also my belief that people choose to go to Hell by choosing to reject God their entire lives, because they want to be the center of their universe. God can't force them to go to Heaven, so He grants their wish by sending them to a place without His presence. Thus, free will. Accept God, or reject Him.

But then I see people on here saying that no one is able to come to God unless He has called them first. I'm pretty sure there are bible verses that back this up, but I don't know them off the top of my head, I'm sure one of you guys probably know what I'm referring to.

I agree that we cannot follow God without His help and guidance, but the way some people talk about it makes it sound like you can't choose Him unless He chooses you first, which deals more with predestination.

Wouldn't this ultimately negate the idea of free will in that God would choose in advance who He calls to follow Him and who doesn't. So those who are not called or "predestined", would have no say in the matter anyway, and thus no free will.

I sincerely hope I'm just greatly misunderstanding this, but right now this just seems like one giant contradiction.

How would you define "free will"?

Are we slaves of freeman?

Can you make a free will decision with now external or internal bias placed upon you?

 

[christ disciple]

I don't think it's contradictory. Look at it this way:

1. Man does have free will. Otherwise no one would perish. 2nd Peter 3:9 says:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

If that is God's desire, and man does not have free will, then it would only follow that that God would have everyone choose him; otherwise 2nd Peter 3:9 would be a lie.

2. Since man has free will, man has to choose.

3. God knows who will choose him before they are even born; because God knows the lives of every single person that has lived, is living and will ever live before they have ever occurred.

4. In this knowlege, God predestines those, who OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL, choose Him.

With God you have to take time and space out of the equation. He doesn't think, act, or see like us. To him the existence of every single person who has ever lived, is living and will live is before the LORD in an instant. That is why to him, those of us who are living and have chosen Him are already seated with Him in heavenly places before we have even finished living out our lives. That is also why when Jesus died, he died for our sins past, present and future.

From this perspective, it's the only way Ephesians 2 makes sense:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

If you look at this through our human eyes and understanding, it makes no sense. If you take time and space out of the equation, then it makes perfect sense.

1. Man does have free will. Otherwise no one would perish. 2nd Peter 3:9 says:
2 Peter 3:9


9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Who is the writer's audience?

To whom is he speaking?

Saved or unsaved?

3 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

In context, who ar the the beloved? The any? The You?

What would happen to the beloved if God were not patient with all?

Would they have a chance to come to repentance?

Why is He being patient then?

 

[christ disciple]

Romans 9:15: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

This was one of the verses I was trying to remember.

True, so what does this say about mercy?

About Gace?

Who dispenses it and how?

What are the requirements? (Eph 2:8-9)

 

[madetoworship]

Yeah see I think that's sort of a cop-out. We have absolutely no way of knowing if someone's faith was genuine or not. Are Calvinists somehow all-knowing like God? I don't think so. They're just making assumptions and nothing more.

Why anyone would turn from Christ is beyond me, but I've seen it happen to people in my own life. For every atheist-turned-Christian story there's a Christian-turned-atheist story, such as "Dave". We don't sign some sort of binding contract that says we have no choice (free will) in the matter, we must abide in Christ. For me, I make a concious choice everyday to follow Him, lean on Him and reject my sinful nature. It's often times a struggle, and would be easy to give in. I do it because I want to, not because I have to.

God helps me through it, and is the only reason I've even gotten this far. But He doesn't force me to do anything, that would not be consistent with a loving God or free will.

Calvinist subscribe to the belief that God predetermines us from the beginning and calls us by election because of a lot of passages in Romans, Ephesians, and other epistles that clearly state it. They see that it makes sense because God's sovereignty SHOULD be over everything - even salvation itself. They believe that if we are masters of our own fate, it makes God seem helpless. It makes God seem like He's waiting for mankind to be a certain percentage saved to return, and that's not the case.

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed." Romans 8:19

Why I think the way I do:

There's clearly a choice. You are right. I made a choice to follow God and you made a choice to follow God. But, CLEARLY God had His hand in my decision. He definitely lined my life up a certain way and called me to Himself.

As for Irresistible Grace - I don't know because I can't see people's fates and I don't know people's faiths. All I know is that God is in control in His dimension and I am in control of my dimension. See what I mean?

God MIGHT be predetermining our fates and calling us with irresistable grace for certain people. Who knows? Nobody! Because we are not in His dimension of thought. THIS is called faith. I have faith that God is sovereign and He is in control of salvation and His return one way or another.

I KNOW I made a choice to follow God and give my life to Jesus Christ. I was in control of it in my dimension. The rest I give to God.

 

[christ disciple]

I don't think it's contradictory. Look at it this way:

1. Man does have free will. Otherwise no one would perish. 2nd Peter 3:9 says:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

If that is God's desire, and man does not have free will, then it would only follow that that God would have everyone choose him; otherwise 2nd Peter 3:9 would be a lie.

2. Since man has free will, man has to choose.

3. God knows who will choose him before they are even born; because God knows the lives of every single person that has lived, is living and will ever live before they have ever occurred.

4. In this knowlege, God predestines those, who OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL, choose Him.

With God you have to take time and space out of the equation. He doesn't think, act, or see like us. To him the existence of every single person who has ever lived, is living and will live is before the LORD in an instant. That is why to him, those of us who are living and have chosen Him are already seated with Him in heavenly places before we have even finished living out our lives. That is also why when Jesus died, he died for our sins past, present and future.

From this perspective, it's the only way Ephesians 2 makes sense:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

If you look at this through our human eyes and understanding, it makes no sense. If you take time and space out of the equation, then it makes perfect sense.

3. God knows who will choose him before they are even born; because God knows the lives of every single person that has lived, is living and will ever live before they have ever occurred.

If this is true then what does God premise His choosing upon?

Their works?

Their decision?

If God had to look down the corridor of time to witness this then is He Omniscient (Knowing all things)?

Is He present everywhere? (Omni-present)

Is He All Pwerful? (Omnipotent) Or does man's will (decision) rule?

 

[christ disciple]

Romans 9:15: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

This was one of the verses I was trying to remember.

What does Romans 9:16 say:
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

[christ disciple]

I guess that makes sense.

So then how would you respond to people who say that we can only choose to follow God if He has called us to do so? Are they just flat out wrong?

Personal example: I made the concious decision to turn from sin and instead turn to Christ. Best decision I ever made. But, some people would say I only did that because God planned for me to do so in advance.

In light of John 3, how did you come tomake this decision?

 

[christ disciple]

To me, a verse like this: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." does not compute with the idea of a loving God.

If EVERY single person doesn't have the same, equal opportunity to obtain salvation, then I do not see how a God characterized by unconditonal love can exist.

Luckily, I feel that everyone IS given the same, equal choice.

This is why verses like the one I posted above are somewhat disturbing to me when I think of them in that way.

Does not God love eveyone?

Even His enemies?

Were we not Hids enemies prior to salvation?

Did He die for everyone of His sheep? (John 10)

What is the difference betwwen Mercy and Grace?

The message is delivered to all the world, but who will respond?

Who says they don't have the oppotunity?

Question should be: Do we have the ability apart from God's Grace?

 

[christ disciple]

Argh, you got me. Yep, I was trying to create a giant controversy to destroy the forums as we know it...

Lol not really.

In all honesty, I think this issue is a valid question that both believers and non-believers alike are completley justified in asking. I mean, understanding how our free will factors into the salvation process is kind of important in my opinion.

I'm convinced that there is a definite answer to this question, despite the differing point of views. Maybe this is just my nature, but I'm never satisfied with the "Well, there are some things only God understands" answer. I hope this doesn't come off as sounding snotty or anything, but once I get curious about a question, it's hard for me to stop looking for answers.

All of Grace.