Free will

[JustAsIam77]

Since the fall of Adam and before the new covenant mans destiny depended on his works. We know how that turned out.

Doesn't the belief in our free will to determine our own choice as far as accepting Christ as our Saviour, make salvation into us being a co-saviour with Christ? Is the glory of salvation to be divided between the grace of Jesus and our own will?

Is God struggling as best He can, pleading and begging us to believe, but unable to accomplish His will? Or is God Sovereign and entirely capable and able to draw His chosen to be saved by regeneration of our spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit according to His pleasure and glory?

 

[drstevej]

Since the fall of Adam and before the new covenant mans destiny depended on his works. We know how that turned out.

Doesn't the belief in our free will to determine our own choice as far as accepting Christ as our Saviour, make salvation into us being a co-saviour with Christ? Is the glory of salvation to be divided between the grace of Jesus and our own will?

Is God struggling as best He can, pleading and begging us to believe, but unable to accomplish His will? Or is God Sovereign and entirely capable and able to draw His chosen to be saved by regeneration of our spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit according to His pleasure and glory?

I go for this answer

 

[ReformedChapin]

Eh, I tried dicussing this already. We both know that our arminian brothers and sisters will not change their mind. I will pray for them so that God soften their hearts and reveals to them the truth.

 

[CruciFixed]

e both know that our arminian brothers and sisters will not change their mind

Whats arminian? Sorry to be ignorant.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Whats arminian? Sorry to be ignorant.

Prostestants have historically held two views of soteriology (salvation). One is the REFORMED (calvinism) position the other is Arminian position. For a quick explination you can go here to see what each view holds.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Eh, I tried dicussing this already. We both know that our arminian brothers and sisters will not change their mind. I will pray for them so that God soften their hearts and reveals to them the truth.

If, as Arminians say, God is earnestly trying to convert every person, He is making a great failure of His work.

 

[MrJim]

Whats arminian? Sorry to be ignorant.

Arminian POV basically says that God has provided the way to salvation by the blood of Christ and if we believe and walk in His way then we too can be saved.

Calvinism POV basically says that long before the world was ever formed God had a raffle and randomly selected names of those that will be saved and if you weren't selected then there is absolutely no hope for you.

Tons of scripture to support both sides of the argument...very tired discussion around here, but occasionally some comes around that hasn't heard it before

 

[Nadiine]

Calvinism POV basically says that long before the world was ever formed God had a raffle and randomly selected names of those that will be saved and if you weren't selected then there is absolutely no hope for you.

not even close -
It is by foreknowledge God has - not some random lottery pick with His eyes closed

but I do agree that both show support & that's why top scholars & theologians continue to disagree & argue the 2 positions.

 

[Secundulus]

Calvinism POV basically says that long before the world was ever formed God had a raffle and randomly selected names of those that will be saved and if you weren't selected then there is absolutely no hope for you.

not even close -
It is by foreknowledge God has - not some random lottery pick with His eyes closed.

What Calvin said:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=49581462#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=49581462#_ftnref1Calvin, Jean ; Beveridge, Henry: Institutes of the Christian Religion. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997, S. III, xxi, 5

 

[Secundulus]

Since the fall of Adam and before the new covenant mans destiny depended on his works. We know how that turned out.

Your statement is refuted by the Old Testament itself.

For example:
" A Psalm of David. A Maskil. How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.Selah. I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin.Selah. Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him. You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble; You surround me with songs of deliverance.Selah. I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you should go; I will counsel you with My eye upon you. Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding, Whose trappings include bit and bridle to hold them in check, Otherwise they will not come near to you. Many are the sorrows of the wicked, But he who trusts in the Lord, lovingkindness shall surround him. Be glad in the Lord and rejoice, you righteous ones; And shout for joy, all you who are upright in heart." (Psalm 32, NASB95)

Doesn't the belief in our free will to determine our own choice as far as accepting Christ as our Saviour, make salvation into us being a co-saviour with Christ? Is the glory of salvation to be divided between the grace of Jesus and our own will?

What did Jesus say?

" "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall."" (Matthew 7:24-27, NASB95)

Also, Genesis 3 teaches free will. The entire story of the fall of man is rendered ridiculous and meaningless unless those humans had free will to chose.

 

[Secundulus]

On Free Will.

God created man in the image of God.

"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (Genesis 1:27, NASB95)

According to Strong, the word image means, "image, likeness (of resemblance). "

So, in accordance with the first chapter of Genesis, man is the likeness of God and resembles God.

Does God have free will? I think it would be absurd to think that God does not have free will. If we say that God does not have free will then we would have to admit to something greater than God who controls God's actions. Since there is nothing greater than God then we must agree that God had free will.

God created man in his likeness and one of the attributes of this likeness is free will.

Or do we say that man is not really in the likeness of God. No, this cannot be argues since it would contradict the evidence of scripture.

It also is interesting to note what Philo, the first century Jewish philosopher said on the soul of man.

For the essence of the soul of man is the breath of God, especially if we follow the account of Moses, who, in his history of the creation of the world, says that God breathed into the first man, the founder of our race, the breath of life; breathing it into the principal part of his body, namely the face, where the outward senses are established, the body-guards of the mind, as if it were the great king. And that which was thus breathed into his face was manifestly the breath of the air, or whatever else there may be which is even more excellent than the breath of the air, as being a ray emitted from the blessed and thricehappy nature of God.http://christianforums.com/#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/#_ftnref1Philo, of Alexandria ; Yonge, Charles Duke: The Works of Philo : Complete and Unabridged. Peabody : Hendrickson, 1996, c1993, S. 628

It is absurd to think that the breath of God could impart an essence that differs from itself.

 

[drstevej]

The Reformed Doctrine of Free Will
The Liver and Onions Parable

Suppose you detest Liver and Onions (L&O). The sight and smell makes you sick.


Just once, to appease the insistence of a friend that L&O really is good tasting, you touched your tongue's tip to the L&O and the taste repulsed you.

You are invited to a buffet where a friend suggests you try some L&O. You refuse. He insists that the L&O is wonderful. He takes a bite and smiles saying "Just try it." You say, "No way!"

You freely reject the L&O because of your senses (sight, taste and smell). You do so on this occasion and every occasion it is offered to you. Your action regarding L&O is predictable and certain.

► SUCH is the unregenerate person's free rejection of God because his heart and nature is only evil continuously.

===

Now suppose this L&O loather is supernaturally changed into a L&O lover.

God changes his taste buds as well as olfactory and mental responses. Now, at the buffet he asks his friend, "What smells so good?" He is surprised to find that the great smell comes from a plate of L&O! He is further surprised that it really doesn't look that bad now, in fact it looks good. He is salivating.

He grabs a fork and timidly takes a small bite to his tongue for a test. The test becomes a taste -- then he eats a huge serving. L&O has suddenly become his favorite food. From that day on he looks for L&O whenever he can find it and he specifically requests it. He is a L&O lover now.

He freely and predictably chooses L&O after this craving has been placed upon him by God.

► SUCH is the response of one who is regenerated by receiving a new heart and nature.

====

BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves L&O. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of L&O forever and ever. Hallelujah!

 

[Nadiine]

we have some free will, but God can usurp it.

I like to call it more "free choice" - what kind of free will do we have
when we have truths & facts before us that we cannot change?

I cannot change that my soul will be eternally lost if I don't "choose" God and instead choose my own way.

We have freedoms to choose from His "menu".... we can't ask for
what's not available or offered to us.

 

[ReformedChapin]

we have some free will, but God can usurp it.

I like to call it more "free choice" - what kind of free will do we have
when we have truths & facts before us that we cannot change?

I cannot change that my soul will be eternally lost if I don't "choose" God and instead choose my own way.

We have freedoms to choose from His "menu".... we can't ask for
what's not available or offered to us.

define "free will"

The reformed view of free will: "you do what you most desire" but your desires are inline with God's will.

 

[ReformedChapin]

When I see one verse that actually says we have free will I will be an arminian. Not speculations about how we are made in God's image and he told us to do it that's why we should be able to do it. Scripture is more than clear that we are slaves to our Sin and even Science shows us we are predetermined by our genetics.

 

[Nadiine]

When I see one verse that actually says we have free will I will be an arminian. Not speculations about how we are made in God's imae and he told us to do it that's why we should be able to do it. Scripture is more than clear that we are slaves to our Sin and even Science shows us we are predetermined by our genetics.

I think what the Bible says about 'free will' would be labeled "the heart".
I think we tend to look for the English wording we want.

But I see God changes people's hearts.... is that not close to free will?

 

[ReformedChapin]

I think what the Bible says about 'free will' would be labeled "the heart".
I think we tend to look for the English wording we want.

But I see God changes people's hearts.... is that not close to free will?

When the bible speaks of Hearts it is speaking of our Minds. Scripture makes it clear God hardens peoples hearts and God softerns somes. There isn't one verse that says "your heart is free to do whatever it wants."

 

[Secundulus]

When I see one verse that actually says we have free will I will be an arminian. Not speculations about how we are made in God's imae and he told us to do it that's why we should be able to do it.

What I posted was no more philosophical speculation than what Calvin wrote. The difference is, what I wrote is in line with the beliefs of the early Church.

Scripture is more than clear that we are slaves to our Sin and even Science shows us we are predetermined by our genetics.

That would be original sin!

 

[ReformedChapin]

What I posted was no more philosophical speculation than what Calvin wrote. The difference is, what I wrote is in line with the beliefs of the early Church.
That would be original sin!

Ask Saint Augustine about free will.

 

[Secundulus]

Ask Saint Augustine about free will.

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will.
Augustine, On Grace and Free Will

Augustine does not argue against free will. He argues against those who would postulate free will to the exclusion of grace. Specifically, he argues against the Pelagians.

In fact, he argues the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.