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Free Will

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jayem

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Anyone else want to answer the OP question?

Free will - is it better that God gives mankind free will, resulting in eternal damnation for most, or would it have been better for God to have mankind automatically accept and worship him without a choice in the matter in this brief lifetime, but would not be condemned to eternal damnation?

I can only anwer it from my cynical/non-theist perspective.

If everyone automatically believed in the same God, and was assured of salvation, then there would be little need for ministers and a church. There wouldn't be hundreds of religions around the world, and there would be no need for evangelization. So, for example, religion A is promoted as the only "true" religion; and that only by choosing to accept religion A and following it's doctrines can you be saved. Which, or course, increases the power and importance of the priestly class who invented religion A. Having power over people is ultimately what religion is all about.
 
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TheBear

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Hmm... but then how do you explain the myriad non-believers who become believers?
I don't. That's something to be determined on a case by case basis. I would venture to say that most already had the concept of a god ingrained in them from early childhood onward, by their parents and society. I doubt many of them converted from a theistic vacuum. I would also venture to say that for most, they were at an emotionally low point in their lives, and were ripe for the picking and open to anything that came along which would give them some emotional relief, hope, and solace. And don't you think it's an odd thing that when those people who are at a low point in their life and turn to a supernatural deity, if they live in the Middle East, it is Islam and the Quran which gives them a sense of hope, purpose and meaning in their lives, but if that same person happens to live in Western cultures, it's Christianity and the Bible which does the same thing for them?
 
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tcampen

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The reality is that the entire concept of faith and the nature of God is completely subjective. Whether it is one's "unimpeachable experience" of God, or otherwise, it is personal to the individual. To me, I find the notion of a God who is the definition of love inconsistent with choosing (or allowing) honest people to spend eternity in hell for sincerely not seeing it the way a particular portion of christian's do. I've heard countless arguments to reconcile this, but simply find them fatally lacking.

I start with the concept that if there is a God, that God is rational. And even if that God's ability to reason is far beyond my own, I can still reason enough in my own right to be able to understand some limits of a rational God. With this, the evangelical christian concept of hell and salvation is so unreasonable, that I find it inconsistent with a rational God - and therefore untenable.

So given the two options in the OP, eliminating free will would have been infinitely less egregious.
 
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jcook922

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The reality is that the entire concept of faith and the nature of God is completely subjective. Whether it is one's "unimpeachable experience" of God, or otherwise, it is personal to the individual. To me, I find the notion of a God who is the definition of love inconsistent with choosing (or allowing) honest people to spend eternity in hell for sincerely not seeing it the way a particular portion of christian's do. I've heard countless arguments to reconcile this, but simply find them fatally lacking.

I start with the concept that if there is a God, that God is rational. And even if that God's ability to reason is far beyond my own, I can still reason enough in my own right to be able to understand some limits of a rational God. With this, the evangelical christian concept of hell and salvation is so unreasonable, that I find it inconsistent with a rational God - and therefore untenable.

So given the two options in the OP, eliminating free will would have been infinitely less egregious.

I totally, utterly, and completely share your viewpoint on this.
 
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Risen Tree

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Which would have been the less egregious to mankind - setting up a system where mankind is given free will and as a result most will burn in hell for eternity, or setting up a system where mankind automatically accepts God in this brief life, but will spend eternity in heaven?

I should have made the OP a bit clearer. It's really addressed to those who do believe in eternal heaven and in eternal torture.

I fail to see how the idea of a God creating even a remote chance for humans to be raped and tortured for all eternity can be considered good.
 
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GreenMunchkin

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I don't. That's something to be determined on a case by case basis. I would venture to say that most already had the concept of a god ingrained in them from early childhood onward, by their parents and society. I doubt many of them converted from a theistic vacuum. I would also venture to say that for most, they were at an emotionally low point in their lives, and were ripe for the picking and open to anything that came along which would give them some emotional relief, hope, and solace. And don't you think it's an odd thing that when those people who are at a low point in their life and turn to a supernatural deity, if they live in the Middle East, it is Islam and the Quran which gives them a sense of hope, purpose and meaning in their lives, but if that same person happens to live in Western cultures, it's Christianity and the Bible which does the same thing for them?
The only thing is, there's so much conjecture and supposition in there am not sure it's completely valid.

Yes, there will be some who have been exposed to faith at some point; there will be some who come to the faith when they hit a low ebb... and the ones who don't?

And, yes, people will generally adhere to their "home faith", but what about the ones who don't?

What about the cases where Jesus has appeared to people in remote parts of China prior to mission workers arriving; what about the dramatic conversions in Muslim and Hindu countries where people are so sure of their faith, they're standing firm in it depsite indescribable persecution?

There will always be a way of "cancelling" many people out - although, am not sure whether someone's previous exposure to faith, or their becoming Christian when they're low in any way invalidates their conversion. But, even assuming it does, what about the millions we're left with, who were atheist, not actively searching for God, not hurting or sad... and yet.

If it can't be intellectualized, perhaps the only option we're left with is to consider that we became Christian because there really is Someone to follow and love.
 
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pantless rationalist

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I've never come across any Biblical or philosophical support for the idea that we can freely leave... we're told there will be no sin there so, no, I don't think anyone can or will be banished. The Bible doesn't describe Heaven in the way it does Eden, for example.

I agree on principle with that you're saying. But, again, we will have chosen to go there, with full knowledge that it will be for an eternity. God isn't stacking the decks or hiding the small print.
But how is anyone to know what heaven and god will actually be like? There have been numerous interpretations of the nature of the Christian god, but only one can be correct. This means that some Christians are going to be pretty disappointed when they get to heaven and find a loving, compassionate god when they believed in a jealous, warlike one, and vice versa. I can't see wanting to stay for eternity with a god that you might end up not agreeing with, and if you aren't allowed out after getting in, then this would conform to the prison idea.

If there is no sin and nobody can leave or want to leave, I don't see how individuals can be said to have free will after entering heaven.

And just as a side note, according to Christianity angels were banished, which means that it might be possible for anyone else to be banished as well. If there is no sin in heaven, how could the angels have revolted in the first place?

Many will choose Heaven, many will choose hell. No-one is unilaterally consigned to either.
If someone actually subscribes to Christian mythology, I can't see them "choosing" hell. Not believing in Christianity is not the same as choosing an eternity of damnation.
 
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pantless rationalist

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If it can't be intellectualized, perhaps the only option we're left with is to consider that we became Christian because there really is Someone to follow and love.
But the same argument can be made for any religion.

For that matter, change it to "there really isn't some to follow and love", and you can even use it for non-religion.
 
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chingchang

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That goes to the core of my question. What is worse - temporary 'robots', or eternal torture?

The robots wouldn't be temporary. Why would he create robots on earth...then give everyone free will in Heaven? Then, we'd be free to rebel and give him the middle finger in Heaven...forever. Seems like that wouldn't be too smart. From my understanding...his plan is to grow a crop of beings that choose to love and worship him...that way when they get to Heaven there won't be any problems (like there was with Lucifer). "What is worse?" Hmm...from our perspective any suffering is worse than no suffering. But God must have a different perspective. Otherwise...things would be different than they are.

And there it is again, folks. Instead of just addressing the topic at hand and leaving it at that, some people just can't resist the urge to resort to cheap shots and personal jabs.

I appologize if I came across that way and offended you. That was not my intention. My intention was to provoke thought. Who are we to question God and his plan? My guess is that type of thinking is what started the rebellion in Heaven to begin with.

Forget about me. The topic isn't about me. It's about the OP question. Any further, off-topic and personal jabs will be reported.

Tattle-tale! :p

Don't get your feathers ruffled so easily...

Hugs,
chingchang
 
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GreenMunchkin

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But how is anyone to know what heaven and god will actually be like? There have been numerous interpretations of the nature of the Christian god, but only one can be correct. This means that some Christians are going to be pretty disappointed when they get to heaven and find a loving, compassionate god when they believed in a jealous, warlike one, and vice versa. I can't see wanting to stay for eternity with a god that you might end up not agreeing with, and if you aren't allowed out after getting in, then this would conform to the prison idea.
If faith were fustymusty and emotionless, I'd agree with you. But you're neglecting to factor in that we have a relationship with Him that is as real as any other. I don't expect you to understand it - that's what I mean when I say the two worldviews are just wholly incompatible (though, hopefully, not combative which is what many of us turn it into, unfortunately). I know who I'll spend an etenity with because I know Him, and I love Him, and I truly believe He loves me back.
If there is no sin and nobody can leave or want to leave, I don't see how individuals can be said to have free will after entering heaven.
We signed on the dotted line that, yes, we would like to be in paradise with God forever, and ever, and ever. I'm someone who is making that choice, and am making it with my own free will. I totally get that it doesn't make sense to you, though.
And just as a side note, according to Christianity angels were banished, which means that it might be possible for anyone else to be banished as well. If there is no sin in heaven, how could the angels have revolted in the first place?
Well, strictly speaking, the angels fell. But, yeah, they were somewhere with God, and then they weren't. The difference is, the angels weren't saved because of Christ. We are. Completely different rules, on a completely different pitch, with a completely different shaped ball. The two situations aren't comparable.
If someone actually subscribes to Christian mythology, I can't see them "choosing" hell. Not believing in Christianity is not the same as choosing an eternity of damnation.
It is, though. Ultimately, that's precisely what it is. There are only two choices.
 
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GreenMunchkin

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But the same argument can be made for any religion.

For that matter, change it to "there really isn't some to follow and love", and you can even use it for non-religion.
No argument from me on that.
 
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TheBear

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Don't get your feathers ruffled so easily...
It has nothing to do with feathers being ruffled, or hurt feelings, or taking any offense. Just stay on topic and use general references instead of making things personal. That's all I ask.

Thanks for your cooperation.
 
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pantless rationalist

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You're assuming that I don't know much about religiosity, faith, &c., so I just want to give a quick background about my religious history:

My mother was raised Irish Catholic, my father Southern Baptist. As a very young child I would attend services, as well as Sunday school and CCD, at their respective churches. My mother, disillusioned with the traditions of the Catholic Church not based on biblical scripture, left the Church for my father's Baptist congregation. This happened shortly before I would have had my first communion.

I attended a Southern Baptist church until I was about 12, when my family opted to attend a non-denominational congregation closer to home (the strain of a two-hour+ round trip every Sunday with four young children was becoming too much of a strain on my parents' pocketbook). I attended this congregation for another four years. When I got my drivers license at age 16, I chose to attend a more "modern" service with another congregation. I continued to do so for about two years when, after a long intellectual journey, decided that the claims of Christianity were unfounded.

Throughout my upbringing I dutifully attended many youth groups, including AWANA and other, local groups. I was very passionate and vocal about my faith, studied the Bible, &c. My Christianity permeated every aspect of my life, and I was content with that fact. The rest of my immediate family and (with maybe two exceptions) my large extended family are still very religious.

That history was less brief than intended. I hope you'll excuse the length.
Anyways, back to the task at hand:

If faith were fustymusty and emotionless, I'd agree with you. But you're neglecting to factor in that we have a relationship with Him that is as real as any other. I don't expect you to understand it - that's what I mean when I say the two worldviews are just wholly incompatible (though, hopefully, not combative which is what many of us turn it into, unfortunately). I know who I'll spend an etenity with because I know Him, and I love Him, and I truly believe He loves me back.
My argument was that Christians as a whole, both currently and historically, have not had a consensus on the nature of their god. Yet at the same time Christians claim to be able to "know him" personally. I just wished to point out that there will very probably be many Christians who don't get what they are expecting, and not allowing an out for them after their death would be akin to a prison sentence.

To illustrate this point, imagine that you are hired for a particular job. This conditions, working environments, benefits, &c. of the job are clearly spelled out before you accept. Along with the benefits, there is a stipulation that you must stay with the company for five years. After you start the job, however, you find that the working conditions are not as they were described, and that your boss is overbearing and cruel. Would you stay in your job, or would you try to nullify your contract?
We signed on the dotted line that, yes, we would like to be in paradise with God forever, and ever, and ever. I'm someone who is making that choice, and am making it with my own free will. I totally get that it doesn't make sense to you, though.Well, strictly speaking, the angels fell. But, yeah, they were somewhere with God, and then they weren't. The difference is, the angels weren't saved because of Christ. We are. Completely different rules, on a completely different pitch, with a completely different shaped ball. The two situations aren't comparable.It is, though. Ultimately, that's precisely what it is. There are only two choices.
My point is that, in heaven, angels were given the ability to choose and that, also in heaven, chose to go against god. If Christians are not given these abilities in heaven, how are they not unthinking robots? If this is the ideal that Christians strive for in heaven, how can you argue that the Christian god doesn't want unthinking robots?
 
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pantless rationalist

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Well, if the end justifies the means, and Heaven is better than Hell., and when one considers the end last a heck of a lot longer than our time on earth, I would say that whatever it takes to guarantee heaven would trump the likelihood of going to hell.
This sounds like you're invoking Pascal's Wager, which is a flawed argument. If there were only two choice--belief or non-belief--then the wager would be more applicable. There exist tons of documented religions, and there is conceivably an infinitude of religions which may or may not come into (or have fallen out of) existence. When you take this fact into account, probability states that it doesn't really matter what you believe--the end result would be indifference between your chosen religion and any other possibility.

If you're not referencing Pascal, though, I'll have to ask you to be a bit clearer with what you are trying to say.
 
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Washington

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This sounds like you're invoking Pascal's Wager, which is a flawed argument. If there were only two choice--belief or non-belief--then the wager would be more applicable. There exist tons of documented religions, and there is conceivably an infinitude of religions which may or may not come into (or have fallen out of) existence. When you take this fact into account, probability states that it doesn't really matter what you believe--the end result would be indifference between your chosen religion and any other possibility.

If you're not referencing Pascal, though, I'll have to ask you to be a bit clearer with what you are trying to say.

Well, there is a little similarity, but it's hardly relevant. The OP posits two very real options--no probability or maybe involved:

Either have a system in which
1. Free will will most likely lead to Hell
OR have a system in which
2. Determinism automatically leads to Heaven.
No playing it safe with the hope of a "maybe."

I suggest you read the OP.
 
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pantless rationalist

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Well, there is a little similarity, but it's hardly relevant. The OP posits two very real options--no probability or maybe involved:

Either have a system in which
1. Free will will most likely lead to Hell
OR have a system in which
2. Determinism automatically leads to Heaven.
No playing it safe with the hope of a "maybe."

I suggest you read the OP.
Thanks for the clarification. I know what the OP says; I just wasn't exactly sure what you were getting at in your reply.
 
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TheBear

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Well, if the end justifies the means, and Heaven is better than Hell., and when one considers the end last a heck of a lot longer than our time on earth, I would say that whatever it takes to guarantee heaven would trump the likelihood of going to hell.
Exactly!

Compared to eternity, our life on this planet is less than a blink of an eye.
 
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TheBear

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The reality is that the entire concept of faith and the nature of God is completely subjective. Whether it is one's "unimpeachable experience" of God, or otherwise, it is personal to the individual. To me, I find the notion of a God who is the definition of love inconsistent with choosing (or allowing) honest people to spend eternity in hell for sincerely not seeing it the way a particular portion of christian's do. I've heard countless arguments to reconcile this, but simply find them fatally lacking.

I start with the concept that if there is a God, that God is rational. And even if that God's ability to reason is far beyond my own, I can still reason enough in my own right to be able to understand some limits of a rational God. With this, the evangelical christian concept of hell and salvation is so unreasonable, that I find it inconsistent with a rational God - and therefore untenable.

So given the two options in the OP, eliminating free will would have been infinitely less egregious.
Agreed.
 
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TheBear

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This sounds like you're invoking Pascal's Wager, which is a flawed argument. If there were only two choice--belief or non-belief--then the wager would be more applicable. There exist tons of documented religions, and there is conceivably an infinitude of religions which may or may not come into (or have fallen out of) existence. When you take this fact into account, probability states that it doesn't really matter what you believe--the end result would be indifference between your chosen religion and any other possibility.

If you're not referencing Pascal, though, I'll have to ask you to be a bit clearer with what you are trying to say.
I understand your point. But the OP premise goes more to the system which the god of the Bible set up. Pascal's Wager has more to do with mankind's choices, once the system has been set up. This has to do with the overall ethics of god granting free will, resulting in the majority of mankind destined for eternal damnation.
 
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